mdk

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

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@Vilageidiotx

1. Short term, yeah. Long term, absolutely not.

2. 16,000 people in the month of December -- and that's just counting who we caught. Well over a hundred thousand annually. The cost of which is estimated to be in the many tens of billions (if not over a hundred billion) of dollars in programs, tax credits and law enforcement. And then there's cartel, gang, and god forbid someday terrorist groups exploiting the border. PLUS, hey, you know, uh, Mexico is toooootally going to pay for it anyway, so it's basically free, right? In every way this is worth the investment.

3. We'll see.

(4) the border has to be constantly manned anyway (and is). It's porous. Patrolling without a physical barrier is far more difficult and inefficient than with one. And remember -- it (kinda, for a while anyway) worked for China. It works in Israel. It's working in Hungary. This is a good idea. It has been for thousands of years.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I feel like this bit highlights all the practical problems with building a wall, and why it isn't a worthwhile investment, and why it is mostly a political red herring used to keep us from focusing on our real problems.

1: That 100% effectiveness is unlikely and shouldn't taken into calculation. 50% elimination would be wildly impressive.

2: That we've already got walls in the sensible places, and what we are mostly discussing now is the utility of building walls across the remote deserts and mountains that make up so much of the border.

3: That it would be a continuous cost to upkeep a massive piece of infrastructure that more or less doesn't do anything. This means it would probably be abandoned in portions as both parties look to reapportion that money to active projects, so that I would expect the Trump portions of the wall to be mostly abandoned and let go into ruin since they are impractical.

I personally don't have a problem with them building the wall. I'd rather Trump focus on it, actually. Sure, it's a waste of money, and there is probably some dark and dirty corruption behind the plan, but corrupt wastes of money is something we can swallow and forget. Get the dumb thing out of the way so we can get to forgetting about it sooner, and hope that Republicans don't start pushing something equally "useful" like building a really really really tall tower on the Canada border so we can see to the artic.

@Vilageidiotx

1. Prepare to be impressed! Just by talking about it, we've made a big dent. Follow-through is important though, or else that's all coming right back.

2. 600 of 1900 miles, if my sources are any good (they're probably not) are currently walled. That's a LOT of open territory. Anyway if we had the sensible places all shored up then why do we still have illegal immigration?

3. I mean I'm waiting to see what the project looks like before declaring it useless. One proposal involved covering the whole thing in solar panels -- I mean how badass would that be? We are, after all, talking about deserts. That could be huge. Another proposal worked in some mass transit (though I dunno how many passengers/goods take that route -- I mean I guess our own little land-borne panama canal could be neat).

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

what song will play when you die and the camera slowly zooms away from your face?

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

Snipping to get to (what I think are) the main points -- if I slip up and snip something vital, feel free to correct me.

The idea that building a huge wall is a practical solution has the appeal of simplicity but I sincerely doubt that it would be physically or fiscally possible.

@Penny

When you do the math on the financial impact of illegal immigration, building a wall is about 90% cheaper (assuming a 100% elimination, which is a faulty assumption, but just for the sake of argument). It would save us money; and in terms of feasibility, large portions are already built (the wall was already approved years ago -- Clinton actually voted in favor). But anyway "physically (im)possible" just sounds like a challenge. I do physically impossible shit every day. Dream big!

Firstly I doubt anyone coming from somewhere like El Salvador would describe the trip as easy.

Compared to assembling the funds to do it legally.

If there were a realistic option people would take it. If there were a modicum of stability at home people wouldn't be as inclined to risk it in the first place.

Bingo and bongo. Illegal immigration is nothing anybody should WANT to defend -- it's a symptom of terrible things, and oversight, and it SUCKS. I'm beating a dead horse, but.... we should really do something to curb it. The left will not (allegedly, because illegals who vote, vote democrat).

No one is arguing for some sort of completely open border....

They absolutely are. And they very nearly got it, too.

People don't break the law because they are evil (generally) they do it because they are desperate.

As I've said, totally agree, and I'm in no way arguing for a wall out of spite or malice. Illegal immigration is horrible for the immigrants -- more so than it is for us. Rape statistics during the crossing alone should confirm that, if the arguments already acknowledged don't suffice.

So long as we continue to pretend that building a wall or digging a moat or whatever is going to solve the problem, its never going to get much better.

Wall is a necessary first step. Immigration law today is meaningless, because there is no control. Reforming a meaningless law is, well, meaningless. We need control before we can fix this. A wall doesn't fix the problem -- it merely establishes control. And we need that to happen.

Hypothetically we could establish control by militarizing the border without constructing physical barriers -- border gestapo -- but I'm not amenable to that. I want a wall -- and a door.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@mdk The likelyhood is that living off grid ect is better than what they fled. If that weren't the case people wouldn't keep coming. A sane and moral response is increasing efforts to address the problem down stream. There aren't easy answers to this problem which is what the build a wall and deport them all crowd refuses to see.

A country has the right to control its borders and set its own immigration policy but what is legal and what is moral are not always the same thing.

It would certainly make me happier if there were a reasonable legal way for people in these terrible situations to find a measure of sanctuary.

@Penny

I mean there is (kinda -- that system is also pretty broken)... but it's so much easier to come illegally and, like you say, it's not like these poor folks have time to sit around. As long as illegal immigration remains this easy, effective reform is impossible. The path of least resistance is, and will remain, to come here illegally -- until we have a physical barrier. Without that, we're neglecting a huge, huge source of poverty, crime, and other badness.

Speaking of which -- it's just as easy for the drug lords to get here as it is for the people fleeing them. MS13 is worth googling, if you're unfamiliar with them (dunno how international their reputation is). We have to do something here -- flinging wide the gate and crossing your fingers feels very nice, but it's terrible for everyone in the long run. I say that to do nothing to secure the border is neglect.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

I'm certainly glad that the door was open for me to come here, but I'm a well educated woman with alot of advantages. I cant really blame a teenager fleeing the hell of El Salvador or the Mexican drug war for the safe, if illegal life here.

@Penny

Not arguing, just clarifying -- I don't BLAME the teen either, it's not a question of blame or wrongdoing or whatever. No ill will whatsoever coming from me, I wish ALL folks the best, and particularly these folks as well. Illegal immigration is not a solution -- certainly not THE solution. We essentially force that teen to live off the grid, in fear, unable to earn an actual paycheck (and ill-equipped to even try) and so obligated to manual and/or illegal labor, whose only steady lifeline is to file for tax credits with a forged or stolen SSN. Like.... we are directly incentivizing that. Could go further but it starts to sound incredibly racist. My point is: illegal immigration is very bad, and I don't just mean for Americans. I mean for the people stuck in it.

We have to do better, and we can't do better until we establish control. Thus, wall, door, reform. I consider it morally essential.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@mdk I'm not trying to suggest that you are a racist or a sexist and I apologize if I came across that way. A person makes a political choice for their own reasons and those are always going to be nuanced.

Things I like about the left.
When I stop to think about it, it is surprising how many things I have to define as better than the GOP position.

Healthcare universal healthcare is a left wing idea in America. The democrats aren't really committed to it (maybe Sanders and a few others) but at least they are somewhat active in expanding things like Medicaid. I deal with people everyday who wouldn't be in the dire straits they are if they could afford regular preventive care. I'd personally like to see a system like Australia or Canada use. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

Women's health. Every time I see an attempt to make access to women's healthcare services more difficult it is always the right doing it. Access to these services including abortion services is important to me and the left is the one not tearing it down.

Social programs ditto. I know we would all like to be in fantasy land with 100^ employment but I don't think the threat of starvation is a good motivator.

Protections for lgbtq. Again nothing doctrinally prevents the right from being more supportive of this but it seems to me that harmful bills more frequently come from this quarter.

Globalism I want America to play a leading role in the world. I like free speech and other such American notions. This means engaging with allies, NATO, not threatening to defund the UN ect. Globalism is a literal dirty word on the far right and I worry about a retraction of American influence. For all the hype bout Islam being a threat to the west I'm much more concerned about a collapse in china because the government can't satisfy the expanding middle class and opts to invade Taiwan for jingoistic reasons.

@Penny

Awesome -- those are some sound positions. Clearly I've been overreacting about propaganda. You're no pushover, and you've done your homework. That's fantastic. I disagree with (almost) all of it lol, but that's not the point.

Healthcare -- this is where personal experience is gonna play, which makes it a non-productive conversation. My disability was directly caused by U.S. government-controlled healthcare (VA, TriCare), and that's pretty much going to prevent me from ever supporting anything remotely similar in the US. I mean government healthcare literally ripped me apart. So...... no, not for me. But I respect the other side of the argument -- it's pragmatism and not politics for me. The U.S. is too big and too geopolitically diverse to support NHS or single-payer. State-level care is a whole other beast (think RomneyCare) -- it's reasonable to think a system could be devised that works for Rhode Island, but unthinkable that this exact same system will work in rural Wyoming. Anywho. This won't go anywhere -- my experience leaves me rather unflexible on this account. Turning the page.

Women's Health -- well I'm certainly not qualified to speak to that'n. My position begins and ends with "don't make people do things they don't wanna do." That includes both carrying a pregnancy to term and funding contraceptives. That kinda does mean that I wind up supporting a lot of those GOP bills about funding PP or whatever -- but I'm not the sort that believes in banning stuff either. It's a weird line and doesn't feel like anyone important is on the same page with me, so I don't wind up voting along this issue.

Social programs -- it's embarrassing how little they accomplish compared to how much they cost. Speaking broadly. We should be allowed to talk about reducing fraud/waste/abuse, but folks like Rep. Maxine Waters -- living in a multi-million-dollar mansion on a "government salary wink wink" -- won't let us have that debate. Gosh I wonder why.

LGBTQetc -- all about personal freedoms over here. I mentioned at one point earlier that I hate the whole "pro/anti" parentheticals that seem to entrap the entire field of politics, and the LGBT issues are a major reason why I feel that way. Anybody can call anything "anti-LGBT" and instantly summon an army of boycotts, protests, and death threats. See for reference: soon after the SCOTUS decision on marriage equality, the lobbying machine decided to make bathrooms the next benchmark and immediately, if you were a drunk 23-year-old in a nightclub suddenly made nervous about going to the bathroom, you were a horrible bigot. Little kids were fair game. It was fucking disgusting to me, and it was all possible because "ANTI-LGBT" is just a damned successful brand.

....that's a rambling response aint it. The point is I'm thrilled that people finally got the freedom to be themselves, and depressed that seemingly immediately it turned into "anyone who doesn't do it our way is evil." Like it flipped. That. Damn. Quick. How is that possible? Whatever.

Globalism -- yeeeeeeaaaaaah that's a hairy one. See the GOP at-large is ALL ABOUT globalism. The new wave is very much not. Interestingly the democrats of 12 years ago were very much not, back when a Republican was the one dropping the bombs (and I expect if Trump drops a few more, the pendulum will flip again). Internationally, I'm more of a "what's in it for me" type -- I'm not interested in World Police, unless I'm getting something out of it. And I think that's fair.

EDIT: more added! Standby.

Economics: You will certainly find regulation on the left, you are correct in that assessment.

Global Warming: Well........ I mean that's a whole thread. I don't believe there's ANY AMOUNT of regulation of US emissions that would make a dent -- partly because I don't trust the predictive models (they've never been correct), partly because I think the man-made influence is righteously overstated, but mostly because nothing and I mean NOTHING we can do will put a dent in global emissions when you take into account emerging economies. STILL -- if/when clean alternatives come around, let's adapt. They're not good enough yet.

Immigration -- I want a big, beautiful wall with a big beautiful door. Illegal immigration is hurting legal immigrants in the job sector; when you look at living conditions and wages it's practically slavery for those who come here illegally; and of course there's the gang and drug violence that exploits that (and other) misery to make big bucks. We're allowed to have control of our border. That's literally the defining feature of a nation.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@mdk It is my belief that the political left is more in line with my beliefs. If they are pandering for my non existent vote by appearing less racist and anti immigrant, then I guess I have to admit that it is working.

@Penny

You do you. I obviously dislike being portrayed as a racist and anti-immigrant for the sake of them hatemongering their way to your exploited vote -- but you do you. Free country and whatnot. Plus a lot of that is certainly on those assholes who are being assholes to you, so to hang the whole thing on propaganda is certainly foolish. You've got good reasons, I don't doubt it for a second. The right's biggest enemy is usually on the right.

Anyway, besides "not being the GOP," what beliefs do you like from the political left?

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

As I said @mdk when I explicitly state that something is my lived experience, I mean that I personally have experienced it. I explicitly stated that I didn't adsorb it from the media. If there are similar reports, consider that they might actually represent common experiences.

@Penny

I'm arguing that "MAGA = get rid of everybody not white" is something you may have absorbed, because that argument is not a matter of experience and it strongly resembles the media's version. It certainly doesn't represent my attitude, or that of the people I know and/or interact with (greater than half the trump supporters in my immediate circle are minorities). That is my lived experience. But as I said -- swapping anecdotes will get us nowhere.

THE MORAL IS -- I think it's awful that you're living in fear. I'm convinced that you're not making up stories about random assholes -- there are definitely random assholes, I doubt none of that. I'm similarly convinced that the political left wants you to feel this way, because (a) it serves their interest, (b) they're actively spreading an agenda tailor-made to that purpose, and (c) it's working -- you're repeating their propaganda without even knowing you're doing it.