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    1. MelonHead 12 yrs ago
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Mostly given up on this post by post business

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<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

Going off of this, a lot of my issue goes with the follow up. While it is true as Melon said that you can react to the weapon being pointed at you, the subsequent adjustments of the weapon make that less viable as an option since they are much smaller movements and the effort to continue to avoid the weapon is far more significant than the required adjustments to the aim.


Yeah, if you don't have cover at that point or you're not close enough to prevent them using their gun it's pretty much game over if you're locked into melee.

Which drags me back to my earliest point, that automatic weapons tend to be the sticking point for me in general combat. Single shots and low fire rate weapons can definitely be matched by a lot of fantasy characters, machine guns cannot. (most of the time)

Melon, I have no control over you accepting the hit if you can avoid it. If I fire a three-round burst at you, but you have cover, or have a magical blue shield that covers your body you can avoid the hit. Only you can accept a hit. All I can do is write my shooting at you and where I am shooting at, hoping that I have locked you into a position where you cannot avoid it and thus take the hit.


I think the problem is how easy it is to be assured that your opponent can't do anything to avoid the attack, provided your working with real physics and what-not (which I suppose most fights tend to let slide for the rule of cool and all that.) which essentially means you've scored the next best thing after a force hit.

There aren't many circumstances where I could imagine any of my characters up to mid tier being able to escape the path of a bullet, and any of the fleshy ones are almost certain to take debilitating damage. Although I never would try and dodge a bullet, I tend to interrupt and make my dodge the moment my character sees a gun pointed at them, which sets the reaction/reflex speed limitation against my opponent as well.
<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

I think mainly what he is saying, is after release(unless the person can then control the released energy, as some presumably can). Hence the arrow reference. You can point, and shoot, but from then on, it's down to a hope and a prayer. It's different if you can then twitch a finger or two to control the direction of your projectile.


Well, that is predominantly how bullets differ from most other attacks, because the point its facing after leaving the barrel is 99/100 the point its going to be hitting in fractions of a second, especially at the sort of range most most fights take place.
No that is a fallacy. The gun owner has no more control over there shot than an elf with an arrow, or a wizard with a lighting bolt.

Your samurai argument is invalid. The samurai does not control magical forces, does not move at faster than human speeds, fly or any other event that characters in arena role-plays can do. If you are fighting a realistic fight then it comes down to cover and fire to win. If you are fighting against a character that is beyond human then the gun and it's properties are just as valid an attack as a spirit attack or having an immortal who has mastered untold forms of combat.

Ultimately you never have to fight anyone with a gun. It is an age old argument since the beginning of chat room combat. There are plenty of fantasy fighters to satisfy you, just as there are tech fighters to fill my whims when I need them.


Well, it's not invalid, because I am also a complete incompetent with a gun, can't move quickly, don't have superhuman accuracy, etc, so we're effectively at the same tier (potentially he would be even higher.) and I'd still almost always win.

I don't understand your point about the lack of control however, if the person launching an attack can't choose how they're attacking and then gauge their success at pulling off an action (not landing an attack, but performing it) then I don't see who can. It would be a little bullshit if the person being attacked could throw off your aim by essentially controlling your character and just saying they missed their target.

It is a cyclical debate though, I believe it's just best to set up characters around the same genre, tech v tech, magic v fantasy, it's better for all involved.

It only really becomes an issue in tournaments, with forced match-ups.
To be fair, something I don't think I've seen anyone ever take into account is recoil, which would effectively limit you to a short burst of accurate fire as Skallagrim said, before you couldn't logically be firing with the same accuracy.

The issue is with the fact that the gun-user has control over if their shots are accurate or not, and with the travel speed and general short preparation time of guns, its almost the equivalent of a force hit at very low tiers, just because it is so much faster than most characters can react.

To sum it up in a nut shell, the reason why guns seem unfair can be explained by a historical example. If you gave me a pistol and set me up against a samurai who had trained his entire life with the katana, and set us about twenty feet apart, I'd still probably kick his ass 9 times out of 10 with my lack of experience or training or skill or anything remotely resembling talent, just by merit of my gun. Melee characters have such an inherent disadvantage against anything other than a single shot weapon (provided it has the capacity to quickly kill them, which it usually does.) that it throws a spanner in the tier system.

The point Tuuj that you keep making about reflex speeds of biological creatures is somewhat pointless though, as magic can easily allow you to circumnavigate those restrictions.

It's up to you, if you want to fight Sigurd specifically then you'll probably need a low powered character, but many of my other characters would probably be a fair match for Casana.
I think the issue with firearms is that the damage they do is already determined by physics, there's nothing inherently abstract about the damage a bullet will do. As most people tend to play characters with inhuman accuracy, they're never going to have their character miss, so the opponent has to have a defence available to block the bullet which is also incredibly difficult due to the speed it flies.

I wish that with projectiles you could just say 'well... they missed' or there was a system in place to take into account how even the most well trained soldier in the world still misses the majority of their shots unless they spend a long time calibrating (aka prepping.)

This is why I find weapons which aren't automatic fairer, for example the Clockwork Man and his Clockwork Pistol, or Isaac and his old fashioned flintlocks.

Well, if she also has the durability to kick through steel without breaking her own bones then no, that's probably not technically a fair match-up.

Sigurd is about 80% ordinary human, so he would probably be killed instantly by such an attack.

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Hi there MelonHead, I'd be willing to fightcha :P

Even better if we do a rematch of the battle we did way back in the Tournament all those years ago :-3


Yeah, I'd be up for a rematch of sorts.

He has picked up throwing axes since that fight though, after having to flee from a baby dragon. Not my proudest moment. I'll see if I can find his CS and I'll post it up.
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