shylarah

Loving and Dreading the Black Shroud [shylarah & pugbutter] [Historical/Gothic]

Hm, I dunno if I particularly want to. Nor do I think I have any ideas for him at the moment...but I could play him without playing him, so to speak. ^.^

Fire and Ice: The Ghoul Wars

@TheMinorFall <3 yay, rps about relationships. Definitely saving her would be good. I dunno if using her as bait would be a good idea -- or in character for Tsitua. Seems a bit callous, especially if she reminds him so much of his daughter. And she could use a parent-type that really understands her, and that she's close to. I mean, she loves her adopted parents, but after what her birth father did...there's always that slight hesitation. And who knows, maybe it'll help with them too.

And now I kinda want the owner guy to show up and tell his story to Tsitua. Pretty sure he's not from Earth originally, and maybe he's not as powerful in terms of most things as angels and demons and the like. His is more a quiet power, connecting. I can discuss him at length with you, to make sure he's okay. But the lady he loves is a phoenix, and she /can't/ die. So when she ended up hurt in a permanent fashion -- even death doesn't help -- in one of the fights between...probably angels and demons, or demons and something else, since angels don't exactly fight, you said? Anyhow, he got totally fed up and tried to leave the rest of the universe on its own.

I kinda see a phoenix, since they're outside the standard cycle of life and death, as having ties to past and present. Or at least this one did; she's a Seer too, and she's still got that ability, but she can't actively do anything about what she sees. However, owner guy can -- though she doesn't always let him see much, just what he needs to. there's a line rattling around my head, something along the lines of knowing what's coming and not being able to do anything hurts, but it's worse when you have to watch someone you care about hurt because /they/ know, and can do nothing. Or something. It was pretty earlier and now it's not and needs work. *sigh*

For the most part owner guy (he needs a name, fudge) stays out of things. He's not allowed to fix things, merely make it so those involved have a chance, if they do what's needed to take it. So he stepped in to get Amune away from the Ring, and back to sanity, so that she can be a player now. Since you've already said that apparently she's important /somehow/. ^.^; *took it and ran with that* I need to figure out what prompts him showing up, though. Hm....

What to save Amune from, though...it could be a fight type thing, or an ambush...but considering that Tsitua got Zeela back and couldn't save her /mind/, I think it should be something closer to that. I think...I think maybe something close to her trauma, her prior experiences with insanity and paranoia and lack of self-worth and so on. Certainly I'd like him (and possibly Jareth, but I don't think too many others) to find out about what happened, and how messed up she really is. Tsitua knows about the Ring, and the following insanity. He doesn't know much about the recovery period -- or how long it took.

Ketsuana can keep her magic from completely unraveling when he's close enough to turn up, so she can't completely lose it that way with him around, but with a mental component to it I think it's entirely possible that she'd tie herself into knots all on her own. If Tsitua can reach her while that's going on, or if she's slid back far enough into the depressed and pessimistic outlook and he manages to get her out of that (though I'm not sure how possible that is, depression doesn't magically go away), that would be a big deal. Same if Ket isn't around and she loses her grip on her magic/sense of reality. So yeah, could be fun~

And I'm getting all rambly. ^.^;; Hee, plotting is the best~

Fire and Ice: The Ghoul Wars

@TheMinorFall Eh, you're really clever and creative, so it balances out. And a lot of the time I go forward with only a vague idea of what I might like to happen. *glomps*

I'm just really antsy because everyone's busy what with the holidays and all. They all have a lot to do, while I have nothing and I've been twitchy to start with, lately. ^.^

Actually, we should discuss things we'd like to have happen at some point. Because yay planning.

<Insert Name; Will Edit Once Not Busy> {Hang-out Thread}

So...literary fiction and other fiction can both make you think, but literary fiction is more deliberately encouraging discussion about it? So sort of a social commentary thing. Scifi can be hard or soft -- and actually, shows like Star Trek are able to cover moral discussion a bit more freely than ones set in the real world, because they don't have to deal with "well you're showing discrimination against X" or all the complicated censor issues that can come into play. There's one ep of the original series where there's these guys with two-color faces, and they loath the other type, and the Enterprise folks go "but you both are the same, half one color and half the other. Then the guy goes "Yeah, but he's white on the /right/, and I'm white on the /left/." Separation from reality lets you present issues in society from a less biased perspective, independently of many preconceptions. I'd also say that how rooted in reality something is will be more a function of believable characters and consistent rules for the world, and less a matter of magic and future tech. Yes, you'll negate certain specific situations with different possible actions (trapped underwater? Cast a spell that lets you breath!) but with literary issues they definitely can still apply.

Hm, in writing, sometimes hiding details can add more to the story. If a character is angry, and there's no obvious reason, then this adds tension to the scene, instead of coming out and saying how this and that happened to them in the past and it affects the way they see things. That part will come out later, when the issue is resolved, or at least discussed. It's possible to create tension by giving that information and showing the reaction, but which way I personally would go with generally depends on which character is the dominant perspective. If the perspective character is aware, then I'd include it. If they're baffled, then I won't.

Hamilton is the Broadway musical about Alexander Hamilton and Revolutionary era America. It's got some pretty awesome songs, and the language is clever. Check it out if you have a chance.

Characters don't exist in a vacuum. To understand why they interact with the world nd even other chars as they do, you need to know about the world. In fact, the world is essentially a very complicated character, at least to my mind. Possibly even more important.

@Shoryu Magami

<Insert Name; Will Edit Once Not Busy> {Hang-out Thread}

@Shoryu Magami Insensitive and too much are both matters of opinion. I think it may be possible to be heavy handed even with few details, though I believe it would bring things over into uncomfortably blunt. Like saying "this is your fault" in a delicate situation where the person is responsible or something. *shrug* Heavy-handed comes from the idea of a heavy hand -- a blow, or hitting someone. It's not so much that it's too much of something, but more that what is used is inappropriate for the situation. Again, a punch to the face and not merely an offer. Maybe in terms of writing it's taken on different meanings, but I definitely think you can use a lot of detail and maintain a light touch, if you have the skill.

Yeah, it's true that a Sue is highly subjective. I'm actually more likely to use it in the context of an rper's attitude than for a character alone. The problem is more the way the character is treated, and less in the traits of the character themselves. The traits tend to be warning signs -- symptoms, and not the problem. My opinion about most things is that it's all in the execution -- and I have seen a character with enough of the "Sue" traits that anyone who looked at the character blurb probably had red flags going up all over, but he was played so well he was one of my favorites in that rp. In fact, I'd go so far as to say a lot of the "Sue" traits can actually make a character more interesting, if employed with skill. Generally it's a good idea to be sparing and not use a bunch of them without a considered reason. Sorry if I hit a button for you.

The point about so-called Sues in real life...hm. I think you're right. Even to the point that a real person might make you go "no way is that really true". I think the issue in writing is that if you stretch suspension of belief too far it will break, and unless that's what you're going for it's a really bad thing to do that. Egregiously Sueish characters can do this. Not to mention many people find them annoying, and depending on the person might dislike a book simply because they dislike a character. *shrugs* Again, it all comes down to personal taste, as you suggested.

Ooh, genre labels. Don't get me started here. I'd argue that having a genre (that'd make it genre fiction, right?) is independent of literary fiction, although I'll admit I'm not entirely clear on what literary fiction is. Then again, I hate people who dismiss stuff simply because it's scifi/fantasy, as if that doesn't count as fiction. My opinion is that something can fall under the umbrella of a label but shouldn't be defined by it. Just because it defies expectations doesn't mean it doesn't fall under the umbrella -- and I'm going to stop there since I can feel myself gearing up here.

All criticism, in the end, is personal preference. Even to grammar, though that's got more of an official status than other matters. If I recall right, there's a poet out there that uses no caps and little punctuation, but the poetry was still good. Something about a cockroach hopping on a keyboard...? I can't remember. In the context of an rp, I don't think unsolicited opinions can be entirely avoided. People are actively writing with the character/style of other players and the DM, and so should be allowed to express feelings. Bashing is in bad taste. Constructive criticism, or saying their personal feelings, is another matter. And while with a rp there does have to be the option of "well you can write it like that but not here", in general I would hope well-considered critique comes with the understanding that in the end, it is the writer's choice what to do with it. And that includes saying "screw you" -- though I would hope if the reader is polite that it wouldn't be said in so many words. ^.^

Hm, well. If you're just listing details in a paragraph, that tends to bother me more than if you can incorporate them into the story. Your example of the man with the dislike of tight clothing being unhappy in a suit, that would expand the character to me. But introducing him in sweats and then telling me he hates suits is more likely to throw me -- unless, again, you can tie it in well. I think my dislike runs more to chunky paragraphs of description with no regard for how it fits together. Sort of like my opinion of rap. It's not that I dislike rap, though I thought I did. The music and style themselves are quite good, as my love for Hamilton has shown me. But so many rap artists swear every other word and keep talking about banging and shooting and I don't even -- it took a truly stellar example of a different sort of rap to change my bias against the genre. I guess with details when they fit into the story I don't notice them as being shoved in my face, and thus why I keep using detail-heavy in a negative context. It's the shoving I don't like, not the details themselves.

The idea of listing all the details as being common courtesy comes with a caveat -- it's only courtesy if you can do it without punching people in the face (which I suppose is also a matter of their opinion, but whatever). If you know a person doesn't like slogging through pages of details, then it's not very nice to make no effort to avoid that. So it's a contextual issue, and dependent upon who you're with.

Your detailed response to handling details (*giggling*) has proved very enlightening. I am going to try to avoid my gut reaction to the advanced label, since I think advanced can be shorter posts but very heavy in the lore department. They're connected but not completely dependent upon each other, and the division gets my goat every time, as I've seen the labels used repeatedly for bashing people that do good writing simply because it didn't meet someone else's standard.

In an rp context, few people outside of the most verbose writers (and the most voracious readers) are willing to go through pages and pages for a single post. Even in advanced, I've seen upper limits on post length suggested. So it's definitely a niche group you'd be looking for, to be happy. In other cases, because you're working with other people, if a detail that would have been significant is overlooked and comes up later, there are a couple options. You can retcon, which may be possible if it's not too far back. You can handwave and say, for whatever reason, it was overlooked at the time. You can go "well...oops, we've got a hole, but fixing it will leave holes elsewhere, so let's just keep going." In the end it's up to the players to sort out the issues so that everyone is more or less satisfied, however that might be done.

For solo writing, as I've said, I prefer details to be woven in, and I do like them but I also have a limit. I don't want to take an hour break to learn about every freckle on someone's face. It's a fine balance between dropping everythign to describe some new character or place, and leaving out details entirely. My personal preference, as stated before, is that the author have the skill to keep things moving as they paint the picture, but I'll enjoy a range of methods. I'm not the most picky of readers. ^.^;;

Drawings are entirely different, and if you choose to include them they change the argument significantly. And if you're commissioning an artist, painstakingly thorough details are a plus in most cases, as is the willingness of the artist to tweak an initial sketch to fit the vision of the commissioner. Within reason -- significant changes that aren't errors on the part of the artist may cost more if you make them do a lot of extra work. But I digress.

Ooh, playing another person's characters. This can be a fun topic. I've never felt comfortable playing someone else's chars, be they canon from some other media, or belonging to another person. I've gotten a bit more comfortable with portraying Character B if I've rped with them under the control of their player in the past, and I'm using my character from that rp and Char B plays a big part in my char's life or soemthing. I'm always aware, though, that I'm playing /my version/ of Char B, and not truly Char B. ...And at times I've had my version take on a life of their own and start demanding that I pay them more attention, and I'll end up using them separately, but knowing this is a separate entity from the original. I've had people adopt characters of mine, for one reason or another. Mostly my favorite DM, when he's doing solo writing for NaNo set in the world of our group's rp campaigns, or writing interim stories (gods I love it when he does this). And my regard for him and my trust in him as a DM is such that I'm comfortable with this, and he does ask when he has questions about things. But because I trust him, I'm okay with minor inconsistencies, because wow is the story worth it to me. <3 I have to really trust someone to be comfortable with a person adopting my chars, and I found out someone else had...and done them poorly, without my permission, and I'm not completely okay although I do understand why. He's forgiven, but I'm very aware that it's /his/ version of those chars, and not anything resembling mine. Sandy, my favorite DM, tends to be good at keeping it close enough to my version that suspension of disbelief can accommodate the rest.

I've also been asked to play a character that had a rough idea established, and then I was to build upon it to make a full character, and I've done this several times. Or I'm asked to play someone so an rp will not be a player talking to themselves all the time. I am willing, with the understanding that I'm not going to play it how the creator will play it, and the character is going to change under my direction.

<Insert Name; Will Edit Once Not Busy> {Hang-out Thread}

@BrokenPromise YES KINETIC NOVEL, THAT'S THE TERM I WAS THINKING OF.

And indeed, excellent point about YA books.

<Insert Name; Will Edit Once Not Busy> {Hang-out Thread}

@Shoryu Magami In no particular order and mashed together because I'm falling asleep and actually heading to bed as soon as I finish this:

*giggles* I suspect some people might call your stuff detail-porn, then. *amused* The fact that you can't think of anyone that meets the level of detail you want is a little concerning, but if you're writing for you and no one else, that's hardly an issue. I don't see too much contradiction in the two ideas of heavy-handed, but both are decidedly negative, and you used it as if it was positive when handling details, which threw me. If the details are truly heavy-handed, then I believe some editing would be in order, at least if you're writing a story. Then again, it's always personal preference, and mine tends to lie in flow. Unanswered questions are actually great -- Neil Gaiman, one of my favorite authors, does this well, if I remember right. Leaving things open for the reader to fill in, or making them thing, not telling them outright what is right or wrong, it's great. Then again, I'm surprised, with your focus on detail, that you would be accepting of such an incomplete picture, given how much emphasis you seem to place on each tiny thing. Come to think of it, if there is a vest with four buttons, and each button is different, would you say they are different, or would you describe in detail each button, if there is no plot relevance to any of them? I think the biggest issue with detail-heavy things is that it often falls under the umbrella of marysues and purple prose, things which are almost always big nos -- but then, I'm talking more in a forum sense, and less a published one. *shrug* Who knows, maybe you'll make a new type of story.

On the topic of what to call things, I tend to dislike hard divisions and insisting on labels. Things are what they are. Do what feels right, and if you must tag it, do that later.

And you're right, it seems we're never going to agree. I can see where people might get bothered, but eh. Doesn't hurt me any, and if it makes you happy, that's the important part.

Right, sleep now. z.z shylarah.exe has encountered an error and needs to close.

Loving and Dreading the Black Shroud [shylarah & pugbutter] [Historical/Gothic]

Also this brings up an aspect I forgot to consider. I think the darklings that are more involved with humans might try some of the...more depraved acts? Or encourage people to do them on their own. Hm...*thinks*

<Insert Name; Will Edit Once Not Busy> {Hang-out Thread}

@Shoryu Magami Heavy-handed, at least in my mind, has the connotation of being awkward, rough, and poorly done. If it's done /well/, I would no longer call it heavy-handed. Long-winded is slightly negative, but not as much. What you speak of sounds more like complete, or thorough, possibly well-considered. One gives you the entire picture. The other slams it in your face and breaks your nose.

Not talking about anime and such for incomplete stories. I mean solely books, where it feels cheap to make me pay three times for a story when you never said I was going to have to. The reader who grew up with books as they used to be expects a story to usually finish in one volume. The longer plot may take more, but there should be some sort of conclusion. Not nothing but questions -- unless that is a deliberate stylistic choice (often for final endings, where there is not a book that comes after) and not merely a way to sell more books.

I wasn't suggesting the books as research, but as something you might enjoy. If you don't have time for reading, that's a separate issue.

I don't think I've ever encountered an author where painstakingly thorough detail has been done well. I've only seen it where it was handled poorly. If you could suggest a book or two you feel does it and does it well, I'd like to take a look, just to see precisely what you mean by this. Nor did I say anything about your story -- it's not even out yet; I'll read it or not but that won't be for a while yet, by the sound of things. I'm not saying you should write anything other than what you see fit; certainly I dislike the idea of selling out as well. But there is a difference between /missing/ details -- things that should be included and are not -- and the stylistic choice of how much detail is put into any description. Necessary details -- ones with particular significance -- I would not consider optional. It is the rest, the fine focus as opposed to the gross, where any flexibility might be found. Missing details is simply poor writing.

<Insert Name; Will Edit Once Not Busy> {Hang-out Thread}

@Shoryu Magami Heavy handed narrative is almost entirely independent of medium, I think. And visual novel generally implies that a person can make choices and interact to some degree. Although I think the MorphE webcomic (mature content warning, if you look it up) is considered a visual novel even though interaction is very limited. But yeah, the ability to use multiple types of media is very useful, particularly for details. And I never said weak storytelling. A straightforward manner does not mean poorly written, simply a different style.

I know the word novella only because of NaNoWriMo (which has a target of 50K words) and thus they said technically it's more a National Novella Writing Month, but that's the only place I've ever heard it used. With...possibly one or two exceptions I've since forgotten.

If you want an example of one story over multiple installments, hm. NOvel-length installments...I don't know if there are any. Mostly because if you reach a certain length, it becomes possible to find resting points where putting a break feels right. Sort of like chapter breaks, but in different books. I /might/ suggest the Daggerspell book and its accompanying series, but the narrative jumps time periods a lot, and is pretty complicated. Actually, you might like it for that, even if it isn't episodic. It's been a long time; I forget how solidly separated the books were.

Now I'm getting confused. You're saying serialization of light novels as opposed to regular novels, and yet I see books in all sorts of series formats. And we've established that light novels are likewise episodic or not as the fancy takes the author.

However I do know with the rise of self-publishing and ebooks, there are things being released that are called novels (or at least books) but are not complete stories. I've read a couple. They sorta have a start, middle, and end, but there's such big unanswered questions that will be handled in later books that I don't consider it a complete story (something I rather dislike them doing, I should add, as it basically forces someone to buy the rest of the "series" or not get answers).

One reason I feel writing to be superior to most other media is because it is the only one where you can really get inside the heads of different people, see what they're thinking and feeling. Particularly if one often misses social cues, as I do. Yes, you can miss things even in writing, or perhaps the author implies but does not state, but it still feels far more connected to the people there, instead of going /only/ off expressions and actions. The drawback is that no matter how much you describe something's appearance, the mental image probably will be different from someone else's.

Ugh, I know I keep saying this, but, obsessive details is a huge turn-off to me. I can handle a wide range, but while details do make the story, so does execution. That is to say, details may make the story, but they can also break it. ^.^;