Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by K-97
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Gowi: Combustion bending is literally forming energy beams out of Chi.

Sloth said
I'm not a big fan of "Mixed heritage = More powers" in general. I can put up with it and it's a viable option for various power ups, but at that point why wouldn't Aang and Katara's kids have some funky Air + Water mash-up power? I preferred it when it was just "Mako got firebending, Bolin got Earthbending". Not to mention you then have to wonder "Well, who were Ghazan's parents then?"That sounds a little too complicated for someone to just pull off randomly. Ghazan had the benefit of (presumably) years of training, unless he was in prison for about half his life, but Bolin just sort of did it out of pure desperation. To me it just comes off as something it'd take years to even grasp the basics of, let alone use it in a combat situation. Then again Toph could do crap like turn sand into solid rock at the age of twelve so....screw it.


Bending the Lava isn't really the problem as it is at the end of the day still Earthbending; provided you have the right ''genes'' or chi or whatever I think it becomes a conceptual problem (like how Toph could only Metal bend once she realised there were trace amounts of earth in the metal she could manipulate). And in a desperate situation I think your mind may be in such a state in which latent bending talents can be unlocked and these conceptual barriers gotten past.

The part which would need actual training, skill and practice is making new lava out of Earth; I quickly went to a site which hosted LOK and skimmed through the parts where Bolin lavabends and he never actually makes lava. This means my theory could still be correct (heck even if he lavabends in the current season, you could easily argue he simply practised until he was able to make lava and/or figured out how to do so).
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Gowi
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Gowi: Combustion bending is literally forming energy beams out of Chi.


Yeah, I understand how it works. But even in TLA I hated how they were written and designed. They make sense, but I think they are wonky and I don't like them conceptually.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Sloth
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K-97 said The part which would need actual training, skill and practice is making new lava out of Earth; I quickly went to a site which hosted LOK and skimmed through the parts where Bolin lavabends and he never actually makes lava.


He doesn't? I could've sworn he throws some lava at Ghazan in the Season 3 finale? Or did he just redirect some that Ghazan threw at him? Hmm, I'll have to have a quick rewatch of that.

K-97 said Bending the Lava isn't really the problem as it is at the end of the day still Earthbending; provided you have the right ''genes'' or chi or whatever I think it becomes a conceptual problem (like how Toph could only Metal bend once she realised there were trace amounts of earth in the metal she could manipulate). And in a desperate situation I think your mind may be in such a state in which latent bending talents can be unlocked and these conceptual barriers gotten past.


Him solidifying lava out of nowhere wasn't really the problem with me more than him immediately running to the rescue of Korra and having a lavabending duel with Ghazan. But as I said above, I might be mistaken with the exact way that played out. I do enjoy the friction theory though. But with no other Lavabenders around, I'd assume it'll still be hard for Bolin to generate lava even with three years of training? Unless of course he just spent 24 hours a day training, which doesn't quite seem his style.

K-97 said Gowi: Combustion bending is literally forming energy beams out of Chi.


Wouldn't that make it Energybending? Man, that'd be neat if it was.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Gowi
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Sloth said
I'd assume it'll still be hard for Bolin to generate lava even with three years of training? Unless of course he just spent 24 hours a day training, which doesn't quite seem his style.


“Hey Mako, I’ll be back I have to go risk my life and find a volcano to play with!”
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Kaga
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Hank said
The fundamental mechanics behind it are magic, because that's what it is.


"It's not magic; it's waterbending!"



Sloth said
That sounds a little too complicated for someone to just pull off randomly. Ghazan had the benefit of (presumably) years of training, unless he was in prison for about half his life, but Bolin just sort of did it out of pure desperation. To me it just comes off as something it'd take years to even grasp the basics of, let alone use it in a combat situation. Then again Toph could do crap like turn sand into solid rock at the age of twelve so....screw it.


When asked how he did it, Bolin did say that his life being on the line "kind of helped".

I mean, the ways benders can use certain specialized types of bending (like a firebender using lightning or an earthbender bending sand, etc) strike me as sort of like skills that some people are just naturally gifted with. Theoretically, anyone can learn that skill, but some people just don't have that talent for it. Like, if you tried a certain sport and realized that you sucked at it, then you would probably (unless you had a really strong desire to become better at it) just say that you couldn't play X and just move on. That would be akin to, say, a firebender who decides he really can't bend lightening, and so they just say "I'm not a lightening bender". Meanwhile you have a friend who, despite lacking in experience just as much as you, picks up that same sport fairly quickly and realizes they sort of have a natural talent. That would be like a firebender who realizes that they can bend lightening, so they go on to call themselves a "lighteningbender" and they continue to practice and get better at lighteningbending.

Also, given how "natural talents" work in the real world, it makes sense that they can be somewhat hereditary, as well, though they don't have to be. For example, Toph basically invented metalbending, and then her daughters learned how to metalbend - and while it's sort of implied that they both inherited the skill from their mother, it's possible a lot of their talent just comes from being taught the skill, as well. For example, Lin presumably then taught the rest of the Republic City police force how to metalbend, though, going back to the natural talent thing, it would make sense to say that not every earthbender who tried out could really pick up on metalbending so easily.

Of course, that could just mean that being skilled in a certain type of bending just has to do with being skilled at bending a given element in general. For example, Azula was a lighteningbender, yes - which was a talent that Zuko didn't really have - but Azula was also just a lot more talented at firebending in general compared to Zuko, so it makes sense that she'd be able to pick up on a more advanced form of firebending. But when there are multiple "advanced versions" of a specific type of bending (like lavabending and metalbending both being types of earthbending), it makes sense to say that a talented earthbender would have a much stronger leaning towards one type than another. For example, if you're naturally athletic, it would still make sense to say that you're inclined to be more talented in one sport than another.

So, basically my interpretation is that Bolin had a natural talent for lavabending where he lacked one for metalbending. If that's the case, why did he not discover it until just then? Well firstly it probably has a lot to do with the fact that lavabending just doesn't seem to be as well-known across the Avatar-verse, and not a lot of earthbenders would've really considered it or been able to learn it from someone else. Think of it like sandbending from the original series. The sandbenders lived in the desert, so it made sense that such a skill would be common in their culture. But Toph couldn't sandbend at all, which, while probably partially due to the fact that she can't see through sand, was also probably due to the fact that she most likely isn't as familiar with sandbending - again, likely due to the fact that she seems to prefer to avoid sand in general.

So given the fact that Bolin probably wasn't really exposed to lavabending prior to meeting the Red Lotus and really didn't consider it at all until that one moment - like Bolin said, his life was on the line, which is a strong motivator. I can see how adrenaline would boost a bender's abilities, perhaps sort of 'unlocking' that ability for Bolin by allowing him to realize that he had such a skill, and just didn't think to try it until he needed to save his own life (and those of his friends).

But yeah, while bending in general is kind of a "you have it or you don't" sort of deal, and benders can strictly only bend one of the main four elements (with the obvious exception of the avatar), I feel like the specific sub-sets of a type of bending are a skill that, theoretically, any bender of that main type can learn. I mean, I basically said that Zuko wasn't a lighteningbender, but the fact that he and Iroh could just barely bend lightening by redirecting it through their bodies should say something.

Gowi said
That's a point I hadn't really thought about, I actually like this theory a lot. Though, as Sloth said that doesn't explain Bolin, but that's a whole other mess of "why". As far as Larfleeze's concept of genetics goes: I've always liked the idea, but I haven't seen much of it made sense of in the continuity. I mean that would've made Kya have an entirely unique style of waterbending if 1+1=2 but then again maybe it's not always a 100% hybrid bending gene or whatever?


And this is why it hardly makes any sense to boil bending down to hard genetics. Like others said, bending is spiritual. I mean, non-benders all over the world turned magically turned into airbenders thanks to spirit nonsense, and no common ancestry or anything was ever really implied between the chosen non-benders.

I think it makes sense for talent regarding a bending sub-type to be at least somewhat hereditary, if you subscribe to the whole natural talent idea, but not only has the canon in both series made it clear that the origins of the four main bending types are spiritual, it’s also been made fairly clear that gray areas don’t really exist between the four types, and there really never has been a canon “hybrid” bender, again with the obvious exception of the avatar, but even then, the avatar’s bending also exists for spiritual reasons, so… yeah.

I don't know, it's a mess.I still don't like waterarms or combustion girl in any form.


To be honest, I really only like Combustion Girl because she’s a callback to Combustion Man from the original series, and his bending was a really unique and interesting concept.

As for “waterarms”, a thought occurred to me while spending countless paragraphs overanalyzing the series: ever heard of phantom-limb syndrome? When amputees still sort of “feel” a certain limb even though they don’t have it anymore? They’ve discovered that this is because the parts of your brain that control lost limbs still exist even if the limb itself is gone, and they’ve used this discovery to invent high-tech prostheses that connect to an amputees brain and allow them to control the fake limb the same way they would control a real one. It’s possible that waterarms (whose real name I honestly don’t remember, either) has learned to use waterbending in a similar way. Her arms don’t exist anymore, but the part of her brain that controls her arms still does, so maybe her bending ability allows her to use water as a substitute for her arms, controlled the same way that real people control those high-tech prostheses.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Gowi
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As for “waterarms”, a thought occurred to me while spending countless paragraphs overanalyzing the series: ever heard of phantom-limb syndrome? When amputees still sort of “feel” a certain limb even though they don’t have it anymore? They’ve discovered that this is because the parts of your brain that control lost limbs still exist even if the limb itself is gone, and they’ve used this discovery to invent high-tech prostheses that connect to an amputees brain and allow them to control the fake limb the same way they would control a real one. It’s possible that waterarms (whose real name I honestly don’t remember, either) has learned to use waterbending in a similar way. Her arms don’t exist anymore, but the part of her brain that controls her arms still does, so maybe her bending ability allows her to use water as a substitute for her arms, controlled the same way that real people control those high-tech prostheses.


But there is no place for the chi to travel which is the central aspect of bending, if there is no place for chi to go and the movements aren’t available I personally think it shouldn’t be possible to bend an element that needs certain movements of chi in the arms. Of course, this is still my opinion of the subject. I think it’s a bit different than “phantom limb syndrome” considering the fundamentals of waterbending still requires chi to be moved in a certain way that is simply impossible (or perhaps improbable?) to do so without limbs to guide them. I don’t know, maybe I’m thinking of this too one-dimensionally.

To be honest, I really only like Combustion Girl because she’s a callback to Combustion Man from the original series, and his bending was a really unique and interesting concept.


One thing I especially dislike about “combustion bending” is that they can arc something that is entirely line-of-sight based. But yeah, I thought it was neat that they were going to expand on the style in Korra, but then we got like zero exposition about it which I think is Sloth’s problem with a lot of the antagonists and their bending in season three.

And this is why it hardly makes any sense to boil bending down to hard genetics. Like others said, bending is spiritual. I mean, non-benders all over the world turned magically turned into airbenders thanks to spirit nonsense, and no common ancestry or anything was ever really implied between the chosen non-benders.

I think it makes sense for talent regarding a bending sub-type to be at least somewhat hereditary, if you subscribe to the whole natural talent idea, but not only has the canon in both series made it clear that the origins of the four main bending types are spiritual, it’s also been made fairly clear that gray areas don’t really exist between the four types, and there really never has been a canon “hybrid” bender, again with the obvious exception of the avatar, but even then, the avatar’s bending also exists for spiritual reasons, so… yeah.


It’s certainly a tricky thing to involve genetic theory to the world of Avatar’s element bending, but I think in a way it should have a role as it’s become hereditary for many benders over time since the first lion turtles allowed humans the gift of one element. Some people honed it further in the ancient eras by studying respective “natural benders” but the majority of earthbenders get their earthbending from their genetics from the way I’ve looked at it.

I don’t subscribe that there’s much to “hybrid” children, but perhaps there could be aspects we could use to explain certain things. But that’s a big basket to handle.
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Gowi said One thing I especially dislike about “combustion bending” is that they can arc something that is entirely line-of-sight based. But yeah, I thought it was neat that they were going to expand on the style in Korra, but then we got like zero exposition about it which I think is Sloth’s problem with a lot of the antagonists and their bending in season three.


Note: Sloth and Gowi are talking on Skype simultaneously while doing stuff in this thread, so there's that.

Unlike Gowi, I'm semi okay-ish with Ming-Hua, my biggest grievance with her wasn't that she could make arms out of water and use those arms to bend, it's that they don't really bother to explain how she makes those arms. She just dives into a pool and comes out with water arms. I was also excited to see the return of combustion bending and finally see some exposition on how that works (more specifically what was up with that third eye stuff), but instead all we got was a single throwaway line of dialogue that might never be brought up again about some random warlord.

The biggest difference between me and most Avatar fans I talk to is that I'm actually more than okay with Zaheer's becoming a badass airbender after only having airbending for a week or so. But that comes from me actually practicing martial arts years ago and assuming Zaheer to be an ex chi-blocker or something. But regardless, this thread has made me...well...not outright cool with it, but more accepting of Bolin's lavabending, and I s'pose lavabending in general.

Flying is still the most amazing thing in history though. /sarcasm
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Sole
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Gowi said
Plasma would be the next step from lightning, if you ask me.

Plasma would definitely not be for Firebenders.
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Sole said
Plasma would definitely not be for Firebenders.


Incorrect given the creators gave firebender's lightning, lol. I mean lightning is a common everyday example of a thing created from plasma itself. So by Avatar laws, raw plasma would be high tier firebending. This is why I make lightning a completely separate element in my custom roleplays where elemental benders are a thing.
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Gowi said
Incorrect given the creators gave firebender's lightning, lol. I mean lightning is a common everyday example of a thing created from plasma itself. So by Avatar laws, raw plasma would be high tier firebending. This is why I make lightning a completely separate element in my custom roleplays where elemental benders are a thing.


I don't think you understand why plasma wouldn't be for firebenders. Plasma is a state of matter formed when gas is ionized. Electricity, like fire, is the expenditure of energy. For fire, there is a combustion/ignition of something that continues to feed off of a supply of energy to fuel the process. Lightning is just that raw energy, that is normally from two points that have a third ground point that it can project to. Plasma is not this. Plasma is literally ionized gasses. Air benders essentially bend gasses.
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That’s nice, and as much as the “you don’t know what plasma is and I am an expert” banter is interesting… I already know plasma is ionized gas. Whilst science was certaintly not my greatest subject in academics, I do know the fundamentals of it. The reason I mentioned plasmabending as being an attribute of firebending is solely based that the average writer (they’ve given lavabending to firebenders before giving it to earthbenders and done major disservices to their own lore on other occasions) would connect that lightning due to the fact superheated plasma and other scientific mumbo-jumbo forms storm expulsions such as lightning bolts which in the Avatar universe is fire because “reasons”.

Lightning = Discharged Plasma
Lightning = derived of Firebending for reasons
Forms of Plasma = Firebending somehow

It’s not what I would do if I was a writer of Avatar or running an AU, but I think it’s what the creators would do for their canon given circumstances and such.

This all isn’t important anyway, so we should stop before one of us become antagonistic and instigates an argument and thus garners moderator attention.
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This was such a nice thread until you came in. I don't like you. Kick rocks.
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Neat. Guess I called it with the antagonistic snark. Shame. =/

Sloth said Unlike Gowi, I'm semi okay-ish with Ming-Hua, my biggest grievance with her wasn't that she could make arms out of water and use those arms to bend, it's that they don't really bother to explain how she makes those arms. She just dives into a pool and comes out with water arms. I was also excited to see the return of combustion bending and finally see some exposition on how that works (more specifically what was up with that third eye stuff), but instead all we got was a single throwaway line of dialogue that might never be brought up again about some random warlord.

The biggest difference between me and most Avatar fans I talk to is that I'm actually more than okay with Zaheer's becoming a badass airbender after only having airbending for a week or so. But that comes from me actually practicing martial arts years ago and assuming Zaheer to be an ex chi-blocker or something. But regardless, this thread has made me...well...not outright cool with it, but more accepting of Bolin's lavabending, and I s'pose lavabending in general.

Flying is still the most amazing thing in history though. /sarcasm


But yeah, I wish there was a tiny bit of exposition regarding “why can you do these ridiculous things”, but we were left by the finale in the void so to speak as it became a confusing unknown that they did what they did because they were “badass” which is one of my biggest complaints about season three in general. With that said I do like Zaheer and Ghazan as characters; couldn’t care less about the two others so much I don’t care to remember their names or even google them haha.

Also, flying is ultra dumb, imo. /notsarcasam
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Gowi said
Neat. Guess I called it with the antagonistic snark. Shame. =/




Have I defused the tension yet?

Gowi said
Neat. Guess I called it with the antagonistic snark. Shame. =/But yeah, I wish there was a tiny bit of exposition regarding “why can you do these ridiculous thing”, but we were left by the finale in the void so to speak as it became a confusing unknown that they did what they did because they were “badass” which is one of my biggest complaints about season three in general. With that said I do like Zaheer and Ghazan as characters; couldn't care less about the two others so much I don’t care to remember their names or even Google them haha.


Gowi said Left in the void




But on a serious note, I do think it's a shame the backstories of the various Red Lotus members were never really dove into outside of dialogue snippits. How did Ming-Hua lose her arms? When did Ghazan learn how to do that weird lava shuriken thing? How did they even join the organization in the first place? But alas, I guess that's what we have fanfiction (and comics, hopefully) for.
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I would buy a limited series of the Red Lotus’ backstories in a heartbeat, in all honesty I think they could be very interesting and if they are half as good as the The Promise then you will have to take my money (what little of it there is) immediately.
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Gowi said
I would buy a limited series of the Red Lotus’ backstories in a heartbeat, in all honesty I think they could be very interesting and if they are half as good as the then you will have to take my money (what little of it there is) immediately.


No love for the Search or the Rift? Or have you just not read those ones yet?
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Gowi
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Sloth said
No love for the Search or the Rift? Or have you just not read those ones yet?


Just as good as the one I mentioned, but considering the three are counted as a trilogy I thought it was self-explanatory.
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Gowi said
Just as good as the one I mentioned, but considering the three are counted as a trilogy I thought it was self-explanatory.


I was under the assumption that they were all their own separate trilogy. Here's hoping for an omnibus or something of all the Gene Yang stuff.

Shameless plug for the Avatar comics to anyone who didn't know they were a thing.
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Gowi said
Yeah, I understand how it works. But even in TLA I hated how they were written and designed. They make sense, but I think they are wonky and I don't like them conceptually.


Why are you even in this thread is my question.
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Because I like the franchise? Apparently you think I'm not allowed to like it if I'm not 100% happy with the entire series? lolok
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