mdk

I'm just here to mine salt from the Infinity War premiere.

FEED ME YOUR TEARS, MORTALS.

The Political Thread

Right, obscure references to vaguely right wing maybe maybe not people aside, is there anything interesting going on elsewhere in the world?

It's kingsday here at the moment which is naturally the best time to discuss whether we should keep or abolish the monarchy here. It's a distinctively Dutch problem since, well, our monarchs have always been... sorta like the average Joe except with a lot more money paid by us, the people. I can see pro's and con's to abolishing and keeping him. Him and his family are the face of the Netherlands after all. On the other hand the only thing he ever seems to be doing is going to the Olympics and cheering on the athletes.

IDK. Having some sort of 'country-idiot' that looks goofy and does stupid shit is kinda funny but I can't help but wonder how much we actually spend on this country-idiot.

@Odin

As an American, I'd kill to have a Head of State separate from our Head of Government. Imagine if we could have Barrack Obama as the image of our country and Donald Trump's dragon-energy running the engine. We'd be unstoppable.....r. Unstoppabler.

The Political Thread

@mdk ethnicities shun their own members for voting a certain way - it's the pillarization all over again. It's very undemocratic in my eyes.

@Odin

Eh, I figure it's not my place to tell anyone how they're SUPPOSED to feel about anyone. The black vote (insofar as there can be said to BE a "black vote") has gone Democrat for a loooooooong time, and the black community in general is much more knit together than the white one at least, probably most others as well. If Kanye's announcement shocks people from that community, that's their prerogative, and I wouldn't ever call it "undemocratic."

That said.... it's not something I admire in another person, either. The whole concept of 'shunning' is ugly no matter where it's coming from. Just possibly, nonstop seething from the media brings this out in people. *shrug*. My point being.... idunno, let's not be dramatic, I guess? It's Kanye.

does put add perspective to his music though

The Political Thread

Land of the free, spreading liberty and democracy everywhere, while it dies in your own country.

@Odin

How so?

The Political Thread

I am pretty damn white, pale white. I have both Native American and African ancestors.

I don't know how far back Warren claims here Native American heritage comes from but it is possible. She refuses to prove it so I doubt it.

@Burning Kitty

I THINK -- based on some geneology books we found and looked at one time -- that I've got Native American heritage technically as well, but I don't exactly claim it for affirmative action. Also it may have been like an aunt/cousin-type situation so I dunno if I've actually got the blood anyway. Also based on location and history there's a good chance it was a rapey situation.

The Political Thread

Apparently Elizabeth Warren is getting attacked by an Indian Women who is now her running rival, over an ad or slogan that she deemed was insensitive?

@POOHEAD189

It's Shiva, in this case a guy. The ad in question is being run by Shiva, and the offensive part (to Warren) is "Only a real Indian can beat the fake Indian." Shiva being really an Indian (as in, born in Mumbai). The 'fake indian' bit regarding Warren comes from how she claimed Cherokee heritage to advance her early career, to which we're all kinda raising an eyebrow like "Uh.... Liz, you're whiter than me."

side by side

Anyway Massachusetts is all "YOU CAN'T SAY THAT, take down the signs," and Shiva's like "Well you're just saying that because she runs the DNC, you partisans," and the ads are pretty not-that-offensive-to-anyone-but-Warren except for the photoshopped headdress she's wearing on the sign, which seems like possibly a step too far (gasp, someone going on the attack in a campaign?! Inconceivable!). The signs should probably come down, but also they've had their effect already so who even cares anymore.

The Political Thread

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I can't really say for sure. You make some good points - CBRN isn't your everyday asset so having access to one of these facilities might already have been a stroke of luck for the Kim's. On the other hand, they're pretty good at security (in it's most brutal form) and much of what you have said is already there - they've produced this crap before so research requirements are... limited? The problem was delivery of the payload, not the payload itself.

@Odin

Well they got nuclear detonation, yes. They never quite got "miniaturized nuke," though, as in "one you could put on an ICBM." So presumably they were working on that crucial development alongside their rocket tests.

The Political Thread

<Snipped quote by mdk>

That's the beauty of NK - don't have to be rich, just have to be in control. When your people are starving you don't need to pay them, you just give them something else, like food or privileges. I'm 100% positive that there are North Koreans crazy enough to go into a mountain that may or may not be leaking radiation to retrieve some assets. Just promise them some food.

@Odin

But for a nuclear program you need, like, engineers, specialized equipment, rare resources, processing facilities, time, etc. I get that the labor is cheap but the nukes aren't -- and even if they are, the equipment needed to research and produce them ain't. Without swathes of top secret intel, who knows, but it's entirely possible their program was EXTREMELY damaged by that one mountain collapse. If you had the resources to set the program up with redundancies and safeties, you would in fact be smart to do so -- but maybe they don't, even with the slavery.

I think you're giving the Kim's too little credit, though. It's a carefully orchestrated and engineered miracle that NK is still standing, almost 60 years after the Korea war (or more?). It's not all up to the Kims ofcourse, since they're advised by people who do know what's up, but to say it's short-sighted and terrible... I don't know. They have survived where other countries in similar situations have fallen. For a longer time than any of them have been around. Short-sighted? I'd say they've been very good at maintaining the status quo from their underdog position for as long as they have.

I meant that as a joke, like, ha ha, kims are short and fat and wear glasses and are evil. BUT YOU'RE RIGHT THOUGH -- Jong Il was a goddamn genius, and Jong Un totally takes after his pappy. Anyway the family's more savvy than their advisers -- DPRK advisers get publicly blown to smithereens for disagreeing with the glorious leader, how much sway could they possibly have? Kims are smart. Nobody plays the wildcard as long, as consistently, and successfully as they have without being well ahead of the game.

The Political Thread

I wasn't even aware about their testing facility being damaged. Then again I haven't follow the North Korea stuff that has been in the news recently very closely. That is probably the reason they're wanting talks.

@POOHEAD189

Probably not "THE" reason, but it would surprise me if it's not a factor. Plenty of other factors.... couple Aegis-equipped battle groups parked off the shore, ready to spank any warheads back down to the surface, can't be helping the outlook. And there are, I mean, no one wants to believe it but there are legitimate diplomatic milestones being achieved. China on board with sanctions was a big deal. I would say the progress here is a combination of famine-fatigue, yakkety-sax bungling of a shitty nuclear agency, losing the most one-sided dick-swinging contest in the history of dicks, and weirdly significant diplomatic pressures whose application flies in the face of decades of foreign policy from every side of every aisle in basically every developed country on earth.

The last bit is astonishing but I don't think we can discount it.

@mdk I'd be really really disappointed if that was their only facility because that's some Bond-tier fuckup. Any security expert knows you spread your facilities and critical assets to minimize risk of exactly these type of events.

That said I suppose it's possible.

@Odin

well they're not rich. And like.... I mean it's a punchline, but consider the possibility that the DPRK's space program maybe actually was built by the Kims. Is it really that far-fetched? And would it surprise anybody if it was bloated, short-sighted, and terrible? You know... like all the Kims?

<Snipped quote by mdk>

In part.. China nd others also suspect the mountian is already badly compromised. Land slips, trees dieing off and workers falling prey to unknown illness and weakness...

Should like anything familiar...

If they tested much firther they may make a full blown nuclear incident on China border and the radiation contained in the mountian be released. They already had increased seismic activity.

@PrinceAlexus

Well yeah but the premiere league and/or NFL increases seismic activity. But yes, this is a real thing we've observed and it's fairly serious. I don't have the articles on hand but they haven't done diddly since the mountain went super-sour, and although tons of pressure was already on the regime at that time, I don't think it's coincidence that they stopped all testing right then.

----

Also, the things that are reportedly on the table for negotiations don't seem commensurate with this being just a response to program failure. So that would seem to imply again that some of the stuff we're doing is working. What stuff specifically, I dunno, but we've been doing a lot differently since Trump. If that's shocking, remember that Dennis Rodman is North Korea's favorite human being, and that apparently none of this has to make sense.

The Political Thread

<Snipped quote by Altered Tundra>

It'd be a misstep on their end because they need nuclear programs to sustain their power. Looking at the middle east, anyone that was even suspected of having a WMD let alone nuclear capability was met with a kick-in-the-door attitude from the USA and alliance members. Having a nuclear programme is a risk in that regard because it warrants a visit from uncle Sam, but the favorable geographical location for NK means that the USA can't really do anything, because we already know that NK can reach Japan and SK with nukes.

Now, 'suspending' the nuclear program I'm assuming doesn't mean proliferation meaning that they still have nuclear capability, which leads me to infer two things; a) they now have ICBM that can reach the USA entirely as opposed to just the westcoast or b) they are switching to a different doctrine.

I don't think this will 'ease tensions' as much as it'll put the tensions on the backburner for 5-10 years before it flares up again. NK is very much a spoilt child in the sense that it wants what it wants and it makes damn sure to let everyone know it or throw a tantrum otherwise. Positive relationships with SK are nice but they're known for cancelling those relationships the moment something goes wrong. They're bargaining chips.

I'm doubtful this will be 'the turnaround' towards a more stable NK, and I'm seeing this more as a sign that a different doctrine for exerting power has been crafted.

@Odin

alternative read: that detonation which destroyed their nuclear testing area and collapsed the mountain under which their entire nuclear program was based, wiped it out. They haven't tested a thing since then. It's possible they're coming to the table to talk about giving up something they've already lost, in exchange for something. Which could be fine. We'll have to wait and see.