SleepingSilence

The Political Thread

Try to like-only separate full sentences...that was a little eye straining parse through. -.-

Considering everything, a preemptive apology feels out of place. But I genuinely tried to use as minimal snark as possible. <.<'

Healthcare is debatable, but the belief that public education is a bad thing is ridiculous.

@Pepperm1nts

Not quite what I said. I said the education system isn't a free-market and it's not doing well.

Are you really going to disagree that public education is doing awfully in America? (Or at the very least, is poor compared to how much we already spend on it.)

Aight, let's just take away people's social security, then. No one will complain.

@Pepperm1nts

Remove that tax, and most of them in general, and let people save/invest the money themselves. I think you'd be surprised how many people would be better off...

Are you sitting down right now?

Tax the rich.

@Pepperm1nts

Neat. Whose 'The Rich'?

Dawg, I've given you examples of exactly what it is I mean multiple times. I've repeated myself so many times that I was honestly becoming self-conscious and beginning to wonder if maybe I was repeating myself too much.

I have explained what it is and what is isn't, multiple times.

Anything political and economic is debatable. As for refutable... well, you've yet to refute anything soo...

@Pepperm1nts

You have literally not done that. I want you/or something else providing actual numbers/and a list of what you consider 'basic items you need to live with comfortable and dignity'. Because we're clearly not talking about food, water, shelter, emergency healthcare. Because you made the distinction that is can't just be 'barely getting by' so you must have money left over, after you can afford all of those things.

You argued the phone was essential, I literally refuted that, it is not needed for survival. Do I -need- a laundry list of evidence that a man can live without Snapchat?

Uh, no. This would be a set minimum wage, essentially.

Maybe, sure. What's the problem? A living wage would be different in the UK, because living standards are different country to country. In the US, we can calculate what an appropriate living wage is state-by-state.

@Pepperm1nts

Just for starters, No, it won't possibly be like a 'minimum wage' at all. That's not what wage means. Because you have to work for a 'wage'. You'd be getting a social safety income.

Second. You just contradicted yourself...

1. No, it won't change because it's a flat wage.

2. Yes, of course it will change. So what?

If you change wages based on location, which wouldn't be decided by states likely, but by the government. The government is inept. If you go on vacation or travel or move. You'd be able to change you live somewhere else and reap the rewards of the most expensive place...(also all of the illegals in the country would drain the country dry even faster, if all you needed was an address to rake in "The Rich's" aka American's tax dollars.)

You haven't given me any specifics whatsoever. To the point where I'm unsure how many times I have to say "give me data/numbers/statistical guesstimates please." Where's age? What age do you get this universal income?

Even if you just said, "I took my points straight from Sanders." I'd currently have more information, despite him also constantly contradicting/changing his own numbers.

(If people can't get more or less money based on what person they are...are we assuming pregnant woman are going to use/need the same resources as someone whose not?)

*I guess never mind, the next clarification is even more widespread*

???

No.

A living wage would account for the cost of utilities, transport, food, child care, ect, but it would not be based on how many people live in the house. Unless we're talking about children the person might have, in which case that falls under child care. If you have an adult living in your house who doesn't have a job, I don't think that's something that's going to count towards what the living wage should be.

@Pepperm1nts

I'll just cut to the chase. You cannot, in anyway, pay for this. At all. Especially, by only just 'taxing' the rich.

So the living wage, won't stop adversity and struggle. But it pays for a house, electricity, sewer, gas, internet, phone bill, water, heating, air conditioning, car, gas, any other mode of transportation, train tickets, bike, air travel, (some need it for work after all.) You've not specified, so I only assume you mean broadly. Which I know you'll say 'No, I didn't say that.' But you literally do, when you leave it that vague...

It's also a contradiction, because you said you weren't going to have the government pay for cars. You didn't even clarify, 'public transportation", which I'm sure we both know what that is...the fact you neglected to specify that, I think it says a lot...this is a Christmas Wish List...not an actual thought-out proposal. And I'd be finer with that if you didn't seem so self-assured that all the numbers and data are on your side and somehow you've been providing such, when you most certainly haven't.

A pet would be something you chose personally to get and care for on the side. This is like saying that the living wage would be different based on how many TVs you have.

@Pepperm1nts

If it was guaranteed to cover utilities, not only would the wage literally fluctuate, every single, gosh darn, day. Yes, have 6 T.V's, 4 microwaves and 3 fridges? You will use more electricity and thus need more 'living wage', so it literally matters how many T.V's you have. Could always put a limit/restriction on that. ^-^

Literally wat.

We absolutely know what a person needs to live. Food, shelter, utilities. In some places that might extend to healthcare, as well, but not here because we're still busy debating whether or not we should let poor people die when they get sick.

I'm not going to reply to the rest of what you wrote because it's basically you completely refusing to understand basic concepts and pretending like it's me that doesn't understand. Should have listened to myself when I thought about just not bothering to reply.

@Pepperm1nts

Yes, you only replied to what truly matters. I know 'literally wat' is such a thorough and thought-out addition, frankly seems like you covered just about all your bases's...

But for the record, no, I'm not an expert in economics and I never said I was or pretended to be. Thing is, neither are you, so I'd appreciate it if you stopped pretending like you know what you're talking about anymore than I do. I think we both have strong opinions on what we think would work. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me, and that's fine. But these are nothing more than our opinions and our own personal defense of what we think works or would work.

@Pepperm1nts

That's fair. If you would have stated that from the start, this probably wouldn't have gone such a way. But I wish you'd do the same, because you stated so many times how you explained everything when you keep changing your own vague statements, without numbers, stats or basically any (much needed) clarifications.

It's probably better to cut this 'living wage' conversation off. Because if the next reply is the same as the others, it will just be a waste of both of our times, into more circular logic...

I appreciate the conversation, if you can manage to stomach me for something else you may like to talk about. Feel free to change topics.

The Political Thread

Some things are in place, like public education, but I'm talking about higher education as well, and healthcare.

@Pepperm1nts

It seems that a lot of problems facing America currently have almost always not a free-market economy, but some horrible hybrid.

@Me

Like?

@Pepperm1nts

See own previous statement for example?

Seriously though, School is one of those things.

Healthcare is too. You can't tell me those are a fully free-market.

Some of our social elements, like social security, are actually universally loved.

@Pepperm1nts

I've honestly never heard anyone claim that social security was loved. Every adult I've ever spoken with always complains that they're being screwed over when they retire. So you've gotten me to look through things...

news.gallup.com/poll/1693/social-secu… That is certainly not the case, even according to general polls

marketwatch.com/story/these-americans…

fool.com/retirement/2006/10/12/is-soc…

freemoneyfinance.com/2007/04/why_soci…

mises.org/library/social-security-mos…

mises.org/library/social-security-mos…

I won't get into a, is social security this or that, unless you'd like to. But the first link just goes into general polling on what people think of social security...and it isn't exactly being lauded with praise. Maybe you like the idea, more than the results? (Because those are pretty bad.)

I've already given some examples of things I'd like to see socialized. Healthcare and higher education should be free. If you want the option to go to a private school that you pay for, or want specialized healthcare that you pay for, those options should also be there. When I think of a hybrid system I am thinking about the Scandinavian way of doing things.

@Pepperm1nts

How would you go about implementing 'free' healthcare and higher education? Especially, without reshaping how many systems in America currently work entirely?

I won't dive to deep into Scandinavian countries not really being all their cracked up to be.

I don't know if you misunderstood, but... I didn't say people should get free government cars.

@Pepperm1nts

I didn't say you did. My comment was referencing I wouldn't -want- it. It's like being something used, the adage 'you get what you pay for'. I think steel metal death traps, would be something I'd care more for quality...

Jesus, man, it's simple.

@Pepperm1nts

If something is simple, you should be able to explain it. You have not. You've said a lot of what it isn't, rather than what it is. And the only clarifications you do make are easily refuteable/debateable. It's not for no reason, it's to point out a fundamental flaw in an idea. (Which is basically my whole point.)

It means not living paycheck to paycheck with no room for improvement because you're stuck in an endless loop where you're just barely getting by.

@Pepperm1nts

Which would obviously be different wages, based on what person you are, where you live, how many live with you, how many pets you have, etc etc. So you can not possibly make a universal dollar amount, but you would need to...to actually pass or propose anything solid aside from a phantom desire/dream...

Basically what I said above. Living wage is actually somewhat well-defined.

@Pepperm1nts

That couldn't have been a more appropriate oxymoron. 'well-defined' 'somewhat' (Kinda-sorta not really.)

Drugs and alcohol, sure. Phones are pretty essential these days, though.

@Pepperm1nts

Phones are a commodity in every sense of the word. You do not need phones to contact people. Also since you admitted phones are essential would that imply they'd be under 'the living wage'. What phone/service provider do they get?

I think we already talked about how equal outcome refers to basic things, and a living wage is, again, a means with which to provide those basic things. I don't see how these two things are at odds.

@Pepperm1nts

You're asking why is assuming a universally applied set income trying to push equality of outcome?

You are assuming that 'basic things' for people to (not even survive) but something that can literally only be quantifiable with pure opinion, like 'live with dignity and live comfortably' which absolutely can't be proven with facts. A universal truth/right. When my point is, you cannot possibly know what certain people 'basically' need to live. (Let alone, 'comfortably with dignity.') Your mixing feelings with something that would need clearly definable terms. This isn't a nitpick, it's a serious flaw when there's no follow through with implementation, and only what is basically a nice sentiment.

The rest I didn't include was basically just repeated ideas, things basic comfortable, dignified, won't actually solve anything, living wages. And more of what it wasn't, and how much it's clear. Without much actual clarification.

Ya know, I don't mind a, "I'm no economics expert, I don't know how to feasibly give a 'living minimum wage' as one set sum because standard and basic living expensive are literally different across all 50 states, the cities within those states and those communities with people within those homes. And how trying to make different free lump sums of cash would be so easily exploited, I couldn't possibly count all the ways in my head." AKA, I dunno. I'm not entirely, sure. But it sure sounds nice anyway. As an answer. If there is nothing more specific you have in mind/prepared/or expressed.

Music Appreciation Thread 2.0

@TheMadAsshatter I concur.

Another band I need to listen to more of their discography. I was wavering between 7-8 for this one, between solid and pretty good. The instruments during and after the start of the solo certainly picked up the song. Not sure if the album is better as a whole, the filler bit at the end wasn't interesting, and the lyrics same a little vague. (So they either non-importance, or seem not specific enough for a concept album.)

I'll meet in the middle. 7.5

The Political Thread

Well, then read again.

Social democracy, at least the way it is often called for in the US, seeks to work within the framework of a capitalist society. Meaning it aims to put social/public policies in place, without completely getting rid of privatization. So much so that it is/was criticized by actual socialists for having more or less surrendered to capitalist ideas by aspiring to work within the capitalist system as opposed to completely destroying it like socialists want to do. Social Democracy is a compromise.

@Pepperm1nts

Wikipedia has been wrong before. I think a lot of that first part was glanced over.

'I feel that's kind of what we already have in many ways, and a lot of those social elements are very poorly handled. (I'm sure maybe that could be agreed upon, I suppose the divide would be how you'd fix those things.)'

It seems that a lot of problems facing America currently have almost always not a free-market economy, but some horrible hybrid.

Could you provide some specific examples to what you might be describing? What problem do you think a 'mixed-bag system' solution would be useful for? Can we really pull random bits from other nations, and just stick them here? As people like Bernie Sanders may imply, when he talks about 'Literacy Programs' of Nicaragua. Is that what you believe will work?

I didn't say anything about gun licenses. I said it's harder to get a driver's license than it is to legally get a gun.

@Pepperm1nts

I know, I meant an actual photo I.D/driver's License to get a gun.

Bad food is cheap. Poor people buy cheap food. We have a lot of poor people. And yeah, to an extent I think it also comes down to shitty dietary choices. But I don't know, I'm just guessing.

@Pepperm1nts

I guess the only thing I'll say about that, since I want to keep this a general discussion, is that stuff like fast food certainly isn't cheaper than making it yourself which would almost guaranteed to be healthier. I'd say nearly everything comes down to choices.

I wouldn't consider a car a basic need, but even if we did consider it a basic need for the sake of argument, it's a problem that would be solved with better salaries. There's a lot of poor people out there who have so many things they have to pay (and barely have the money to) that a car, for a lot of them, is too much to get and maintain on top of everything else. A living wage is not just about paying people enough to live; it's about paying people enough to live comfortably and with dignity.

@Pepperm1nts

I wouldn't exactly want a free government car. Nor can I imagine how'd you'd implement such a thing realistically...

I think that clarification doesn't actually explain how'd you implement such things. I think it actually makes the stance even more vague...

"Basic things you need to live." It's debatable, but simpler at least.

But now, it's comfortably/'with dignity'. So again I'd have to ask, who decides that exactly? In a world with people's nature, who desire for more...

Again, pay people living wages so they aren't struggling with basic necessities and everything else (like transportation) becomes accessible to them as a result. If they want to get a car with the money they have left after the basic needs are covered, cool. A bike? Great. I don't think people in the richest country on earth should have to live with only just enough to survive. Ideally, I want people to have enough for their basic needs, but also something extra to put into the economy. I see a lot of people on the right who seem to find it outrageous to think people should have a little spending money. You hear it a lot from the "just save your money!" crowd and it's ridiculous. [incoming sarcasm] How dare people want to enjoy their lives a little? They should just pay their bills and save everything else even if it means living in an empty apartment. Spending money on furniture and TVs is sooo irresponsible. Oh, and their phones. How fucking dare they.

@Pepperm1nts

What's a living wage? Do you think that answer is the same across the board or that all people will be satisfied with the number you give?

I think there's a shred of truth to that, I think some people can turn their noses at people problems because they've not experienced the same struggles. The sorts that claim we can't afford houses because of avocado toast, are tools who the sensible can laugh at. Though yes, people that spend hundreds on a phone and expensive clothes and drugs and alcohol would do a lot better in the world saving their money.

You mentioned you don't agree with equal outcomes, but equal opportunity. But set basic incomes wages for existing...isn't that. And even that can be heavily exploited depending how it's implemented.

But I don't think anyone likes the idea of poverty. Something I'd like to see, is more people hiring, more jobs for people to make that wage themselves. That is an equal opportunity idea.

You're doing something a lot of right-wingers do.

Someone says "hey, there's a problem with X" and they try to offer a solution, but if the solution doesn't solve literally every conceivable problem, it's a bad one. Life doesn't work that way. Sometimes we have to inch our way towards progress. You can't wave a magic wand and fix every aspect of every problem. Sometimes a solution only patches three out of four holes, but having three holes patched up is better than none.

@Pepperm1nts

Rationalize positions?

Oh. I mean the "give everyone lots of money so that everyone is comfortable." is kind of a fairly simple sounding, widespread solution isn't it? It certainly seems to sound like an end all problem. Give people money every month to 'live with dignity', and the problems of gambling addictions and people bad with money, etc will be solved...

I was simply theorizing what "basic" means in such context. Since you weren't specific. But you even had to add the word comfortable, so okay...do you think someone should live without two legs? I can't imagine it's a comfortable life. So why not have free prosthetic limbs surgeries?

Well, color me surprised. I figured you'd hate her.

@Pepperm1nts

Well, to my knowledge she hasn't said white people don't know what it's like to be poor, so she has a leg up on Bernie Sanders. ;D

The first few results that came up for me were to do with regular gay marriage, not trans rights.

I think to an extent it's an old vs new thing, because even on the left there are people like Hillary who were anti-gay marriage until relatively recently, but I think the right is by far more anti-LGBT than the left. Like, it's not even a contest. Hands down, the Republican party is the anti-LGBT party. That may be slowly changing, but it still has a long way to go.

@Pepperm1nts

With not much to go on, or say otherwise. I'll take your word for it.

I simply don't agree with that assessment. I'd go as so far to say a lot of tactics used to label such things doesn't look good for the party in question. Since that's been their tendency recently, simply to demonize rather than really look to the individual.

Actually, I believe the cultural idea of accepting everything, actually has lead to some rather negative consequences, despite the noble idea behind it. It's simply a farce, because everyone has a line...(Even you, probably.)

The Political Thread

Mostly I am for a mixed economy. I think the best we can achieve in the US is a capitalist economy with strong social elements.

@Pepperm1nts

Well that certainly isn't what the Wikipedia article on what being a social democrat is. (If you get my earlier point.) Though, I feel that's kind of what we already have in many ways, and a lot of those social elements are very poorly handled. (I'm sure maybe that could be agreed upon, I suppose the divide would be how you'd fix those things.)

I don't want to ban guns. I just think there should be more regulation. And I'm not talking about making it near impossible to get a gun. I'm talking about logical shit like universal background checks and waiting periods. Getting a gun shouldn't be easier than getting a driver's license.

@Pepperm1nts

Well thankfully, you need a license to buy any gun. (Among other things.) But I'll leave that point be, since I don't wish to get sidetracked. In fact, I'll simply make a point in my next question.

I honestly think drugs should just be legalized, with very few exceptions like those drugs that literally rot your skin off. Legalize drugs, tax them, make bank, and simultaneously cripple illegal drug trade. I think a lot of the problems we see with cartels would probably go away if their product was made legal. Fighting the war on drugs is a waste of time and money and it's ruining people's lives over non-violent drug offenses.

@Pepperm1nts

Basically agreed with the latter half, the former I think decriminalization would be a considerable/negotiable step in the right direction. Because you'd be combating the biggest issues with drugs, while maybe not encouraging people to try harder ones. I mean, when microwaves have to tell people not to stick their cats in them...do we pull that trigger? I dunno.

But I digress, say in this scenario. Just picture if you will. You -could- potentially have the drugs and alcohol etc. But you'd need to be put in a drug/booze registry. Which will obviously cost money and require overhead. You'd need to give multiple reasons on why you'd want to take the drugs. You'd be required for a government inspection of your propriety to make a judgement if you'll be responsible with your drugs. You could only use a certain licensed amount, only use it yourself, don't use it in specific areas, or risk paying a hefty fine or prison time.

I could go on, doesn't this sound ridiculous? (I sure do hope so.) Is it just because their completely different? Well not entirely, they can harm you and those around you and be quite dangerous and self destructive...after all just in 2016. More people died from drugs than guns or cars. But there's so many people taking drugs, some put in prison for smoking in their home, is that something that should be allowed in hands of a responsible adult without big brother?

(Obviously, playful. Heroine ain't exactly in the Constitution, but I'm sure it would be if The Founding Fathers tried it.) But hey, food for thought. Pun intended, I'm shameless.

I haven't really put much thought into this. I think Americans' diets are dogshit and I see why we would want to discourage unhealthy foods, but at the same time, it's up to the individual. If you want to drink soda until you're diabetic that's your business. I don't know if I'd go as far as increasing taxes on soda, but again I haven't really thought about it.

@Pepperm1nts

Well I'm not fact checking anyone here. What do you think the problem is when it comes to people making poor health and lifestyle choices? Is it solely because of Capitalism and overabundance? Well, the U.K actually is the 6th 'fattiest' in population above the United States. So probably not. Cheapest food? (Kind of goes hand in hand.) So feel free to give me your speculation. (If you want...)

I don't think this is true; I think this is a right-wing meme. I don't know of anyone on the left who thinks everyone, regardless of education, financial success, ect should end up in the same place. I think when people on the left advocate for "equal outcome" it's not in all things. What they mean is everyone should be guaranteed a certain degree of *basic* means with which to live. A living wage regardless of who they are, healthcare, ect. They're not saying a poor person should be guaranteed a BMW. They're saying they should be guaranteed basic things.

@Pepperm1nts

I mean it's not a phantom theory. Diversity Quotas, and Affirmative Action, widespread ideas of 'Pay Gaps' and 'Wage Inequality'. It seems to already be in law in several forms and be apart the main talking points.

Who exactly decides what 'basic' things people need? We that be enough to satisfy creatures that desire? Okay, so now fancy car. Well, is transportation a basic thing? If not, why not? Everyone does it, everyone needs to do it. Right?

If so, where does that rabbit hole go? Free bikes? Probably cheaper and more environmentally friendly than cars, so yeah why not? How about people that can't ride or have no legs? Should they get a free robotic leg? Obviously, everyone -has- two legs. That's a basic thing. People born blind or deaf, they obviously need free surgery to get as close to normal as possible. Retarded? Hmm...didn't even scratch the surface, but it already seems rather complicated for 'basic things' right?

I think she's doing alright. There are certain things I think she needs to work on, and I'm not fond of her calling herself a democratic socialist, because she simply isn't. She's a social democrat. I do think her win (and the subsequent uptick in people joining the Democratic Socialists of America) does show there are many people in the Democratic Party who think we should go further left. In fact, I think most politically active young people on the left do. I think she generated a lot of excitement and interest.

@Pepperm1nts

I actually agree in multiple ways with that. I think at least the idea of disliking the establishment party has never been a stronger sentimental for the younger generations. I know you don't like Trump, but his win will bring forth people would normally turn their noses at. People with non-political careers. Younger sorts, perhaps even more diverse in the label sense and intellectually. I don't consider this a negative at all. I certainly think more politicians, and presidents will (or at least try) become successful by not playing the moderate or milquetoast game. The right, the left both farther on the spectrum. Thus the options, may very well feel like-choices. I sincerely hope more people like her, in general and specifically try for a political position. Maybe even have a third party getting enough votes to make both parties sweat bullets, and actually feel like they have to try to earn their civilians vote. A man can dream.

That may have had an impact, but he was a 20 year incumbent, so I don't think she just got lucky. She did her job, ran a good campaign, and appealed to the interests of people in her district. She earned the win.

@Pepperm1nts

#HackedByBots Hey, I'm not politically biased when it comes to working your ass off. I can't imagine how much stress all that puts on somebody. I don't want to come over like I think it was luck. I know it's a cliche, but most things happen for a reason. Though I'd say it certainly helped playing to a much further left demographic in New York, and I'm sure you could agree hubris/self-assurance is clearly something that looks embarrassing when you lose.

I mean, literally the Vice President.

EDIT: "Focus" is a pretty narrow qualifier. I think we'd have to go down to like, religious fundamentalists to find someone who has made it their "focus" to overturn gay marriage. But I think a lot of people on the right are against gay marriage as a secondary thing that isn't their main focus. Pence being one of them. I literally googled "republicans who are against gay marriage" and found several results showing anti-LGBT legislation being passed (or attempted) by Republicans as early as last month in some states.

@Pepperm1nts

I know the shocking gays meme is amusing. But do you know exactly where all that comes from? It was basically, him wanting to refuse funding for sexual advocacy with tax dollars for AIDS. (Which at that point, people pretended everyone could get...)

"All HIV/AIDS advocacy at the time emphasized that everyone engaging in unprotected sex was at risk for HIV infection. The Ryan White Care Act assisted all people with HIV who qualified for its financial assistance. As a Christian conservative, Pence’s preference for directing tax dollars towards organizations promoting sexual responsibility to reduce the spread of HIV is not particularly controversial."
Source

I know this could spiral into it's own thing, since this has been touched on before. But if we went on religion, the democrats wouldn't fair any/much better. Remember, stupid stuff like Prop 8 passed literally everywhere. If you google "Democrats that don't support gay marriage" you'll find things too...obviously religion does play a contributing part in that.

But I'll stand vehemently on the fact that this is primarily and old vs new thing. Hell sex in general is taboo in American for some reason. With marriage having it's own complications. And there's gays who were perfectly happy calling it civil unions. As much as I stand for gay rights/marriage. I'm not quite sure I'm on the same page. Also, I'm not googling it. So I wouldn't know. But the 'Anti-LBGT stuff', I would only assume the 'T' part would be more likely to be brought up. Since that is more of the 'hot button' issue. (If I'm incorrect, please share if you find anything particularly egregious.)

The Political Thread

If my discussion with catchamber does anything, it more than proves, a wiki-page is not always a substitute for what somebody believes they stand for. Though going by the dictionary.com, it gives me a pretty straight forward answer.

So you believe in a socialist system of government achieved through 'majority rule'?

Socially I am very liberal; I don't care what you do so long as it isn't hurting anyone; I don't think the government has a right to tell you what to do with your body.

@Pepperm1nts

I know you're not fond of firearms. (Or I guess have been lead to believe such, is a more fair statement.)

Do you have any problems with drugs? (Assume not.) But if not, how far do you think that rabbit-hole should go? Decriminalization? Legalization?

How about food? Being socially liberal, would you oppose things like higher taxes on soda? Or banning certain fatty/high calorie foods? Like New York's soda ban for example.

Asking these just for a general clarification, on being socially liberal.

In that sense I identify more with the democratic party, but that doesn't mean I like the party as a whole. The mainstream, establishment branch of the party is full of corporatist neo-liberals who are in a lot of ways closer to the right-wing than they are to being actual left-wingers; I don't think the mainstream Democratic Party goes far enough left (cue horror screams) when it comes to certain issues, as evident by the way they try to tear people like Bernie Sanders down whenever he tries to argue for free healthcare and college, and how they're trying to do the same to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

@Pepperm1nts

Just from the sound of it, it's not really any particular or specific party differences. Like many consider of the republican party, you feel disconnected because they aren't accomplishing what you feel their platform is supposed to be? You don't disagree with the ideas, like pushing for equal outcomes over equal opportunity, you just believe most of their ideas should be cranked to the 11th? So to speak.

I suppose this is more off-topic, personal stuff that you don't need to engage with. But maybe it can lead to an interesting cordial discussion. Are you fond of either Bernie Sanders or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? How do you feel Alexandria has been displaying herself as of late? Do you feel her win shows that there's many on the far left who have similar opinions to you about the democratic party not going far enough? Or perhaps, something bigger? Or is it just because the jack-off didn't even acknowledge her and skipped a debate, and got a taste of karma? Feel free to take this discussion anywhere, or pass on it if you don't have an opinion on it/don't feel like sharing.

Socially I think the party is mostly on the right track, at least compared to the right-wing who is still having temper tantrums over things like gay marriage.

@Pepperm1nts

Just curious. Do you know any popular/well-known major conservative person who has "no/overturn gay marriage" as the focus of their platform? I can't think of any. Is there a specific example you have in mind?

The Political Thread

I would say I am something of a social democrat.

@Pepperm1nts

How exactly do you think social democrat differs from just -normal- democrat?

Are you suggesting you share the mainstream democrat position on most/all, social/cultural issues? (And perhaps, primarily/solely focus on said issues?)

Not for nothing. But every conservation I've had with you, makes you seem more fitting of a Progressive label. (To be fair perhaps, Progressive and mainstream democrat means closer to the same thing every day.) But is there something you would disagree with, that would distinguish yourself from that political party?

What Are You Listening To?

Printed guns, melded metal - An experimental GM-less Cyberpunk RP

Well my post is separated from the current conflict. But it's finally completed. (My god that was a process, life got damn busy.) Hopefully it's not one long mess, and it's actually readable. I tried. :D

My styling is also a little different than usual, but I thought it would be suitable for an introduction to the world at large. Giving a bite-size outlook of my character's reality. I can only hope one is as disturbed reading the thing, as I was when I wrote it. >:3

Printed guns, melded metal - An experimental GM-less Cyberpunk RP

Prologue

Music

The radiant glow of her gaze peering from the opened apartment window; a passionate spark that would someday set this world ablaze. Looking out at the landscape dense with skyscrapers, all clamoring for its denizens’ attention. Buildings adorned with a chromatic spectrum of lights from abundant advertisement billboards, surrounding the cavalcades parading through the grungy streets still dampened from yesterday's storm. A mirror universe showing a collage of reflections below people's feet splashing in the puddles. It was easy to get caught up in the beautiful lies and let your mind wander...

These people weren't mere strangers to her. They were blobs of gray mortality, solely concerned for their own well-being. Clustered until their individual presence bleeds into obscurity becoming only noise pollution. How else does one stomach the grotesque daily displays of debauchery? Layers of sin smothered the masses like a thick blanket of darkness that strangled acts of generosity with a vice-like grip. Those who dare preach for compassion would choke from the fragrance of their vomit before any Samaritan could practice it. Night City Downtown Sector A2; otherwise known as The Northside District. A bloodthirsty creature created from their own volition, designed to enrapture its victims while swallowing them whole...

A zephyr blew into the room, leaving a faint chill that sent a shiver down her spine. The dropping temperature being nature's forewarning forecast of rain. Her internal scattered thoughts abruptly halted by words drenched in playful sarcasm.

"You're really sexy when you're philosophizing..."

Turning to address her bare-chested boyfriend sprawled across the bed. His scrawny frame made him look like a skeleton suited in flesh. His bottom-half covered in a pristine white comforter. She sauntered up to the queen-sized mattress, pulling her red shirt off and tossing it beside the overly neat pile of men clothes on the floor. Pressing her right palm against the soft foam, bending over and caressing the left side of his face. Exchanging smiles that pierced their hearts, giving each other looks of unbridled affection.

"And you're obnoxious when you're patronizing me," Madeleine responded pointing at his blackened right eye. "That smart mouth of yours is what gave you that shiner-" her teasing trying to stifle her quivering voice, "...those guys could have killed you."

"Madeleine…" His tone changed to become serious and reassuring. Motioning with his fingers to grab his hands since both were restrained to the bedposts. Resting their palms together, he gently squeezed and held her hand.

"I already told you that I have someone handling it. You'll never see those braying jackasses again. I promise you." She laid down and curled up close, leaning her forehead on his upper-chest feeling his pounding heart. Her arms wrapped around him, listening silently. "My buddy will have everything settled by midnight tomorrow…"

"Why couldn't it be tonight?" She interrupted with a murmur.

"Good things come to those who wait," He replied with a chuckle, "We'll pack up our stuff and finally escape this wretched place. It'll be the new life-with child that you-we always wanted."

The warmth of the bed, his body and candor were equally comforting to her. She smiled looking up at him, but his eyes seemed more distressed from what was behind her. She recalled leaving the window open-did they return to finish the job?! She sprang up from the bed, but noticed nothing. Letting out a quick breath, her focus shifted toward the nightstand and realized a can of Smash was foaming over and leaking out. Taking every ounce of self-restraint not to moan aloud, she stood up and picked up the can, turning around with a sultry smile.

"Thirsty? Open wide." Her demand was met with a grin as he opened his mouth, she started pouring the yellow foamy beverage in his gullet. Drinking the liquid as he closed his eyes, as it splashed on his lips. Stopping once his body shivered from her pouring some onto his chest. She laughed. He merely looked disappointed.

"Aw, don't waste that-it was the last can." He quasi-complained, too aroused to actually care.

"There, you smell like gasoline now." She quipped while heading toward the window, promptly shutting and locking it, as cars screeched past. "I'm going to go wash my hair, I'll be back." She said heading into the adjacent wet room.

"What-seriously? Take these off me then…" Attempting to sit up against the headboard, but failing to budge.

"Good things come to those who wait." She teased, not in his view as the rest of her clothes were thrown off. He groaned in response and muttered under his breath as the shower turned on.

"I think you enjoy dominating, a little too much..." He cracked a smile in thought, "Never thought I'd love someone so complicated."

---

Mere minutes passed as multiple convertibles parked in the streets, with several men getting out of their cars. Meanwhile; neither were the wiser as she couldn't stop herself from giggling, hearing her boyfriend's purposefully bad singing. Crash! A sound of shattered glass and her boyfriend shouting at her, seeing a molotov cocktail landing beside his bed.

"Madeline!" A sudden eruption of intense flames, the entire bed was burning up in a matter of seconds, as black smoke filled the place. Sounds of screaming in his futile struggle, pulling on the straps, feeling the fire searing his skin. She rushed out of the shower, immediately coughing profusely at the fumes, hands covering her mouth and nose. The fire alarm began wailing into her eardrums.

"Ethan!" She screamed in horror, stepping forth as the second projectile was hurled into the window. Viewing a fiery explosion bursting outside, her following scream was deafening and his fell silent. A harrowing thought that her degenerate lifestyle, contrasted with her youth spent at church finally bound their souls to Hell. But she’d soon learn it was naive to believe her suffering had ended, for true torment is eternal. Madeline lost consciousness before the demons broke through the front door, following orders from the devil that had other plans. The perpetrators fled the area long before the sirens could be heard blaring from a distance. By the time it was extinguished, their apartment had been reduced to ashes...

---

Years later...

A lycanthrope stalked their target in silence. Her reddish fur lit by the sunlight peeking from windows. The helmet she wore, recorded the graffiti plastered all around, serving a bleak reminder that this decrepit building once served a purpose. She crept through the abandoned warehouse, dodging any needles or sharp objects littering the floor that could be walked on with her bare paws. Entering a stretch of hallway with nothing but towering pillars connected to the ceiling. She didn’t need heightened senses to catch a strong whiff of trash getting closer, turning the corner to see a dead-end with a large pile of garbage that smelled like urine. She observed the faint smoldering of a stray cigarette that had recently been smoked among the assortment. Holding her breath and digging her claws through the bags, finding something else too new and wholly out of place; a cybernetic disk drive. Taking the piece of evidence whilst pulling out one of her M970 Beretta’s from the holster strapped to her hip, hearing sounds of someone approaching from behind. Swiftly facing the assailant positioned fifteen feet from her, both aiming their firearms at each other. A baseball cap poorly masking his identity. His face looked young, with patchy stubble growing underneath his chin. Seeing the artificial glow of his eyes, as the dark shades slid to the edge of his long nose.

“Drop it. I’m not looking to shed blood today. Especially, not from some amateur thug foolhardy enough to aim their gun at a beast with the safety on.” Keeping a steady posture, with her index-finger still hovering over the trigger, watching as the man visibly trembled, dropping the gun and raising his hands above his head. She motioned with her firearm for him to turn.

“Please-I have family…” He pleaded complying to her command. She lunged forward, gripping his shoulder tightly and sticking the Beretta in his back.

“Another drawback of cheap labor, and accepting under-the-table work.” She thought before speaking in a cold tone. “Keep quiet and move, and you’ll live.” An extra annoyance distracting her from finishing the job. She guided him outside into an fenced off alleyway, with only one way out. She shoved him away, causing him to stumble forth and freeze. She sighed and lowered her gun, shoving it into her holster. She peered up at the building across the street, waving her left hand up in a deliberate manner.

“T-thank you…” He uttered, his voice cracking.

“Just get out of here-” Cutting her annoyed reply short, alerted as the sound a shot rang out followed by the man suddenly collapsing to the ground. She rushed forward and flipped him over, fingers putting pressure on the copious amount of blood gushing from his neck. She saw the life had already faded from his eyes. Standing up with bloodstained hands, leaving behind a hollow husk, resembling the emptiness she’d feel completing another assignment…

---

It was hard to admire the scenery with her eyes closed the whole ride home. Forgoing a seatbelt and laying on her side, taking up the entire back-seat, with her muzzle facing the leather, inadvertently inhaling the new car smell. Tuning out the roar of the afternoon, the same honking horns and yelling crowds as everyday. Most importantly, managing to drown out the drivers fast talk blathering. Pet dogs couldn’t drive; one of many established rules that were strictly followed, with certain punishment for those that break them. Basically forcing her into having a partner with every Reaper job, usually someone as slick a paralyzed goat covered in mud, and half as intelligent and attractive. He ordered her to use a bottle of water and a rag to scrub her hands clean and promptly discard them, unless she preferred walking.

The driver stopped at the last red light before reaching their destination, fidgeting with the radio dial, turning it to a weather report. He looked at her in the rear-view mirror and smirked, showing his taxicab yellow teeth. His inflection sounded like he was gargling salt water.

“You know for a freak. Your ass is still fine-” Feeling a swift heavy kick behind his chair in response, body jolting forward. In a moment of thought, she declined to verbalize her disgust, believing judgement was only a block away. He scoffed but kept his mouth shut, gripping the wheel tightly, driving across busy intersection the instant it turned green, barely dodging a collision with a truck slamming their breaks, coming from the passenger's side. Arriving at ‘The Fortress’ upon the agreed time, both knowing their boss would be anxiously waiting for them.

---

The Fortress; an accurate representation of the proverb of a house that never felt like home. No matter how many times she went through the entrance tunnel that was just narrow enough to give the claustrophobic a panic attack, everything seemed fabricated, a dream-like world that she couldn’t escape from. Personally speaking, it didn’t help that it always too warm for someone covered in fur.

Both walking inside the predominately white room, with various white objects and furnishings, the boss sitting in the middle of the sofa, accented with light blue pillows, the section of wall behind him shelved a large collection of books. He shifted to the right, facing a fake miniature tree, to unleash clouds of cigar smoke from his mouth. She slowly approached the pudgy man, kneeling beside the couch, as her partner set down a suitcase containing the retrieved disk and a sniper rifle and lightly tapped his foot. The boss gave her a pleasant smile, taking her helmet off with his hands and setting it in on the table, gently stroking the wolf head beneath. His affectionate gaze painted a picture of far more innocent soul. She’d compare the atmosphere in his presence closely related to the cigar’s he frequently smoked; toxic, destructive and malignant.

“Scarlett, my beautiful. Did you locate the archives?”

She purposely paused, withholding that answer until her partner interrupted.

“We got it boss. It’s in my case.” He responded, opening the suitcase with an audible click. She merely waited for a perfect moment, watching the boss cross his arms and lean back, his thick eyebrows twitching.

“I asked my pet-” The boss half-chuckled shooting a cold glare matching the tone of his final words, “Not you.” Inhaling and exhaling another cloud of smoke into the air. She nodded her head, responding to his glance at her then stood up and took the drive from the case, sitting on the sofa next to him. Now was the time to reveal the news...

“Master, he killed an unarmed man. A non-threat to our assignment, and he also left the body there.” She said.

“He was armed-” He argued.

“Master, I have the whole thing recorded.” She snapped back, the man looked surprised at the revelation.

“Sir, I didn’t think it would be smart to leave any witness.”

The boss raised his hand ceasing the argument into an awkward silence, he emptied his cigar in an ashtray and tossed a matchbook from his pants pocket onto the table.

“Would you mind re-lighting my cigar?” The boss said holding it out. The man quickly stepped forward, and picked up the match box and lit a match. The men bent over to hold the match up the cigar. The boss slammed the cigar butt straight into the man’s eye, followed by scream of agony as the man clutched his face, casually putting the cigar between in his lips, smoke pouring from his nostrils like a dragon. “You’ve already been paid generously. Get out of my sight.” He spoke dismissively, without a hint of emotion in his voice. The man fled fast as his legs could carry him, leaving the two alone. Was she sick to have enjoyed the entertainment?

“Scarlett, I had another important assignment come in. Everything I’ve prepared you for is required for this retrieval process.” He said getting back into business, pulling out a folder in-between the cushions and pulling out a black dog collar and leash behind the pillows.

“What am I retrieving?” Scarlett asked, looking at the opened folder dropped on the table with papers spreading out. Quickly noticing these weren’t pictures of weapons or technology, her drumbeat heart pounding unconsciously. Hearing her rapid pulse produce a melody in her ears. Ba bump. Ba bump. Ba bump.

“Capture this man, Lieutenant Davison and bring him to us.” He said with a smile, leaning to whisper into her ear and snapping the collar around her neck, “Your reward will be getting the vengeance you so desperately seek.”

“What?! He found them!?” Her eyes widened, mouth slightly agape rendered speechless.

"That's exactly what I meant." He clarified like an omniscient being that could read her mind, simultaneously attaching the leash and caressing her back with his fingertips. "Every last one of them will be brought to my pet on a silver platter, for you to play with as long as your heart desires-"

She gulped and clenched her hands, hastily replying cutting his sentence off. “Where do I start?”

He chuckled and stood up, playfully yanking the leash. “I like it when my pet is eager to please her master,” He teased, “let’s go to my bedroom. I’ll get you caught up on all the details…”

---

Her previous happy life had been stolen and enveloped in darkness. Her degrading situation left her stranded without options, becoming a specter of her former self performing horrendously boring tasks she had a knack for. Awake an endless succession of nights, only grasping for the spider’s-thin thread keeping her sanity from breaking. Getting revenge was the defining reason for her existence. This is where everything truly started for Madeline, now called Scarlett. Completing what she would see as her final assignment; finding Police Lieutenant Davison and exchanging him for her achieving her purpose. But having no idea just how difficult it would be to claw up the colossal wall standing in front of her, nor how many others with shared goals would wrench her back down into the abyss...