Vilageidiotx

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

<Snipped quote by Pepperm1nts> Let's be honest. The other 3 probably tracked Hou down, and Freddy impaled him with his pickelhaube.

@Shyri

The other three carried Freddy like a battering ram and impaled Hou that way.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk> That's a lot of live motherfuckers. This should be corrected.

@Pepperm1nts

Well, Suleiman is dead. And wasn't Lawrence Williams killed, or was he just abducted? And since Tracy Lord might not be cannon (byrd?) and Jaret Arnold might not be cannon either... I don't think this is a death watch. I think it's some sort of game.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Gentlemen, I found a toy. Let the culling begin.

@Dinh AaronMk

What am I looking at?

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Hopefully he can discover life on mars.

@Byrd Man

If the PM is in fact Bowie, we need to see more shit that reflects this. Bring on the orgy pit!

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

What the fuck happened to the UK. Jesus. Though, after reading that. It's good to see a true capable man taking the reins.

@Wilted Rose

He, he will be king.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx> But they also wouldn't have been devastated during World War 2, so to some degree those would have canceled out. And it seems a bit dubious to me that China could have industrialized several times faster in order to match.

@Mihndar

Eh, that's not as important as you would imagine. The countries that America tossed money at after WW2 caught up wildly quick.

You know, it's starting to seem a bit like China grew really powerful out of nowhere.

@duck55223

Sporum Precipice was a mess, and its left us a bunch of really peculiar shit. It does seem a bit unfair, but there aren't really any other legit options, since retconning the major powers would collapse Precipice's storylines and allowing people to make the same mistakes now would just make the cannon even more peculiar. But, in China's defense, they have a better situation for industrialization. Their culture was always what got in the way, but their population and their ability to get at resources cheaply gives them a leg up. Japan has to ship most of their resources overseas and has severely limited real-estate, so industrialization ends up more expensive for them.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Though I'll concede that the population of people reconciled to the government would be small, I still think that the natural resources afforded by Indonesia and whatever other possessions they might have would bolster Japan's economic growth, and considering Japan had a larger economy than China all the way until the 2000s (and that's even with Deng's reforms, which presumably would not happen in this universe) they would still have an industrial capacity to outproduce them in terms of war assets even if they can't match their army in terms of numbers. And that industrial capacity would be primarily geared towards military production, unlike in modern-day Japan.

@Mihndar

Like said, Japan had a larger economy because of US intervention. Also, Hou isn't necessarily Mao so Deng's reforms might not have happened simply because they were never necessary.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Collaborators were usually minorities, though. Except in France. Then it was half the country. But you're comparing apples to oranges there. There were a lot of Nazi collaborators because Fascism was a really popular idea set. Most of the collaborators were local nationalists who saw the Nazi's as a force that would rebuild their governments rather than replace them. That was the entire point of Vichy France - for the Vichy, it was supposed to eventually be all of France. I don't think Petain and his lot knew what Hitler was actually planning to do. With Asia, you're looking at groups of people who deeply traditional, and already deeply communal. You won't really get them to fear communism (there is a reason Asia was so drawn to it), and they will resent any slight an occupier makes. That leaves Korea out of any polite relationship Indonesia could possibly be made into an equal partner of sorts, but that doesn't mean much in its own. Even if you somehow overcome the hurdles of diverse number of individual cultures, the underdevelopment of their infrastructure, and the rural nature of their local industry, Indonesia still isn't enough to help Japan make a dent in the Chinese monstrosity.

I'm hardly an expert, so I'll take your word for it on the war topic. Though I would posit that Japan's economy would still be comparable to China's, considering in the real world it took them until the 2000s to do just what you say, with all of the benefits that affords them. Your comparison would be entirely accurate if China was the United States, but as it would stand in the 1980s China would still have a smaller economy than Japan, unless Aaron has somehow ensured economic growth four or five times larger than that engineered under Maoism.

Japan's economy is comparable because the US occupation. We funneled assloads of money into their economy, and as a result they were able to jump into the Asian market and completely dominate it for a while. And yes, Precipice China's growth is... peculiar. I'll give you that. I suppose the argument to be made is that Hou's Communism is less heavy handed than Maoism and has made better use of individual talents, since Hou's China always came off as being more of a Single-Party Welfare State rather than a full-blown planned economy. But it doesn't take a US sized economy to swat down a Japan in this situation. Especially since the US was working with handicaps that China doesn't have. Namely, China is right next door so the entire island hopping business wouldn't be necessary.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk> Considering they've been under Japanese domination for forty-odd years, an entire new generation would have grown up that knows nothing of the pre-Japanese days and frankly probably wouldn't care nearly so much. This new population, containing almost all of the soldier-age population, would be significantly more loyal to the Empire than the older generation that remembers. There's no guarantee they wouldn't have significant enough air assets and potentially aircraft carriers to both fend off any stuff you send off at them but also place pressure on your forces attempting to contain their landings. Naval forces bombarding your coast and air support combined could easily turn your defensive line into as much of a meat grinder as their landing area. A quasi-fascist state would have invested much more of its power into building these assets than an isolationist China, bolstered as it may be by the other bloc members.

@Mihndar

That's not quite how nationalism works, I am afraid. Your argument about populations would be true if this was a thousand years ago, but national identity erases this. Koreans are still Koreans, and they will be very aware of this. You also have to remember that Japan was never a benevolent conqueror, and it is doubtable that they have been kind to even the new generation. And your representation of the way war works is not... actually how war works. To wage an industrial war, you have to have the industry. This was always Japans biggest problem in the early days, and a major factor in the history of their real world Empire. Pearl Harbor was not an attempt to conquer the United States. Not even an attempt to conquer Hawaii. Rather, Pearl Harbor was the desperate attempt by the Japanese to destroy the US Pacific Fleet so that they could bring a quick end to a Pacific War. They did this because the US refused to sell them oil and they needed to take Dutch Indonesia or else risk being unable to fuel their economy. And they used that strategy specifically because they knew that, once the war started, the US industry would destroy theirs. Remember that Japan is a tiny rocky island, that their Empire was what allowed them to industrialize, and that their modern industrialization is related more to their relationship with the US after the war than it is anything innate within their culture. Case in point, when China finally industrialized their economy dwarfed Japans pretty quickly. A Japanese War with China would much like their war with the US in our time. A few quick victories around the coast followed by slow economic collapse as China headbutts them into the ground. ...and also, if NRP's have taught me anything, it is that most people seem to think war is just a bunch of aircraft carriers.

Precipice of War - We Write Under The Sign Of The Goat

Japan has a lot of potential, but it would require some skill to pull off. You're looking at a Japan that never went through the post-WW2 Americanization. The only force acting against Japanese tradition would be the communism of China, but Japan is also playing the part of the Disgraced Empire, and because of this nationalism and revaunchism would take hold. Their relationship with China would be a teeth-grinding grin and bear it, and the youth would grow up in a depressed society with a tendency toward angry conservatism. So really, more than anywhere else in the Precipice world, Japan is the one place that would most likely become a Fascist state. Not using the term Fascist of course, since that term was specifically invented during the rise of Mussolini which did not happen here. You'd probably be seeing signs of eternal struggle. Communists and socialists being harassed, or even murdered. Paramilitary organizations forming around traditional Japanese concepts of honor. Fanatics wanting to fight an unrealistic war against China while the less fanatical look at the Pacific as their own playground. This can all be done, and you can toss caution to the wind in this unique instance so long as you realize a few things. One, Japan cannot defeat China. It would be youthful overconfidence, or a belief that honorable defeat is better than peaceful skulking, that would ultimately drive them against China. China's industrial and military abilities could bring Japan down though. No question about that. The other thing is that, even if nationalism draws them into Pacific Imperium, there isn't much to be gained there. A Pacific Empire might fulfill certain emotional wants, and it might get them some minor economic boons, but it will not make them a major power. So that is kind of what Japan could be. Exploring the creation of a Fascist state while always living in the shadow of your neighbors.