[OOC] Fate/Eternum

[Raineh Daze]

Where to even start...

Command Seals aren't absolute. Specifically, Illya is the only person who can command Heracles--and her command seals are unique--which shows that they can be ignored even without special NPs. Magic Resistance operates against Command Seals as they're magecraft--Gil's MR rank is actually based on the Archer class and his Master; it doesn't count how many items there are. At which point it takes an instant for something from Gate of Babylon to remove your head, break the contract, and negate the command (of course assuming you even get the first command out without it being predicted in time).

Secondly, you fundamentally misunderstand what Mystery is. It's an innate quality of something; power granted by the Root--it's romanised as Mystic, as clunky as that sounds, for a reason. Things that exist long enough innately attract more power and that only increases with time. Being common knowledge does not weaken it; the only time implications like that are ever suggested are because of the idea of too many demands on a finite amount of power. Obviously, Fusang is such an odd nexus that it can't tap itself dry so it's fine. And magecraft isn't really going anywhere because not everyone is a magus and the actual systems are less important than the rest of it.*

Older = Better is the supernatural law of the Nasuverse and that's how it works.

*Also, this perfectly explains how Extra became Extra: exactly how much power do you think it takes to try and resurrect the first Dead Apostle early?

[KoL]

Not even the whole power of the corrupt Grail, which is way stronger than any CSs, can force Gil to do something he doesn't feel like doing.

And that's not even counting his Magic Resistance, and numerous ways to counter every conceivable magic in existence by using his treasury. Or, the fact that would know it would happen before you even think about it.

The same would apply to trying to go on an arms race against this city. Even if you take only Gil into account, there's no way they could keep a summoning system meant to harm the city out of his knowledge, which just means that they are inviting his wrath. Would the destruction of everything he feels like destroying as a pay back be really worth it?

[VitaVitaAR]

@1Charak2: Honestly I feel like we somehow have completely different viewpoints on how mystery works in the Nasuverse. Perhaps because it's kind of vaguely defined and difficult to articulate, but based on what I know of the setting I don't see the issue here anyway. I'm putting my foot down, it's not erasing magic by existing. I would also like to state that it's not just a lot of leylines, anyway, since that alone doesn't allow for Servant summoning.

As for command seals, the ability to resist them goes up the more the order runs counter to the ideals of the Servant/magic resistance. Trying to order Arturia to destroy a city filled with innocent people would likely be something she could resist long enough to stick a sword through her Master, given it took three to make her destroy the Grail in /zero.

Fusang's law enforcement is composed of both Servants and Masters. Masters are still relevant as the anchor for Servants, allowing them to exist in the world.

It is not possible to summon Servants outside of Fusang without something like the Holy Grail, which is pretty difficult to obtain given the Einzberns sort of need to be involved there(or you need the Chaldea system which is a little murkier). The point being unless you have the cooperation of magi, it's not going to work.

However, Servant vacations is most likely a thing, because of course they'd want to visit their homelands for a while when able.

... And then @Raineh Daze comes along and easily explains what I was too worried about trying to articulate. ^^;

[KoL]

The only conceivable defense that exists against this city is the Counter Force/Grand Servants, if the World feels like it's being sufficiently threatened. If worse comes to worse, King Hassan himself would come to clean the mess, but this requires like a catastrophe of epic proportions to happen, which isn't the case here.

So, to be brief, there's nothing anyone in the world can do. It's like trying to poke Academy City from the Raildex franchise. It won't end well.

And that's not even counting the massive economical and political power amassed in Fusang, which is likely enough to sway the decision of any government in the world. This is serious a case of "Deal with it" since you can't do anything else after the process began.

[1Charak2]

@Raineh Daze

The Age of Gods is directly tied to an abundance of 'Mystery'

The Age of man is literally a result of mystery's decline. Where magic and mysticism is now replaced with technology and Science, The Death of king solomon for instance accelerated the decline of mystery.

Even in the modern era mystery is slowly and inevitably dying out as science develops as the worlds foundation is now on physics, there is a reason why Mages are trying to recover what was once possible in the past.

The greatest example of mystery against science is reinforcement being unable to work on a firearm. It is simply impossible to reinforce a firearm with magic due to the fact that the firearm rejects mystery due to being a complex mechanism of science

This means that Mystery = Magic remains true as Mystery is the fundamental power that powers magecraft which even then is inferior to the magics of old because of the decline in mystery.

Thus, it is wholly likely that the moment you make magecraft common knowledge any mystery it would hold would rapidly decline. Because common knowledge and understanding is a detriment to mystery's existence.

Lets take a look at another Noble phantasm for evidence, Since they are in this RP. Thomas Edisons WFD, exists to erode mystery itself which is why it is an anti-populace NP. Since it shows the technology of man performing things that were once only possible with magic.

Again this could all be handwaved away if that Chaldea used that massive stockpile of grails they somehow acquired or if someone won a the fuyuki holy grail war. And simply wished the world to be this way. Which is what happened in reqieum.

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the TLDR is that if it were to exist in this capacity. People would make their own summoning systems since all goverments would want a piece of the pie they'd likely round up their mages to get working on a system.

Im just saying that logically without even bringing up that such a high concentration of heroic spirits would cause Alaya and Gaia to have a seizure

Also in fate requieum, the plot hook is that the protag summons the last servant into the world. 'I'm a death god - my job is to kill Servants." The girl who was separated from paradise meets the final Servant summoned in the world'

So it seems that even in reqieum there is such a thing as going too far.

Humanity is known for not taking things sitting down, lets say you built a superweapon tomorrow that lets you destroy the world, you either become a tyrant suppressing rebellion or watch as someone else build the same superweapon or destroys yours.

Final point:
Just give a working explanation for why this massive reveal isn't causing a huge decline in mystery. Or just say its a grail wish. Both work!

[Raineh Daze]

The Age of Gods is directly tied to an abundance of 'Mystery'

Nope, relative power balance between gods and mortals. This is pretty firmly established by CCC and Extella, amongst others. The gods lost a lot to

Hider

Sephyr/Sefar

including the heavy Ether presence that allowed materialisation and needed a way to address the balance, they made Gil so that people would remain appropriately reverential towards the Gods and reverse this, he decided that humanity's future was better.

Everything else just follows on from that continuing decline of incredible power concentrated in a few entities. It still resurfaces, though; things like the Dead Apostle Ancestors and magical beasts wield all the same power they always have.

The greatest example of mystery against science is reinforcement being unable to work on a firearm. It is simply impossible to reinforce a firearm with magic due to the fact that the firearm rejects mystery due to being a complex mechanism of science

I think that's more because Magi are incompetent and don't understand guns well enough to work out how to enhance them in such a manner.

But if you really want to bring up magic guns: Lancelot says hi with Knight of Honour, Edison literally makes magitech robots with guns in America, there's every Servant WITH a gun... they're eminently capable of being reinforced, magi just don't know how--seriously, they probably could with something simple enough of a lot of work at it; but why bother? More direct magic works just as well. Kiritsugu is the only magus to heavily use guns and his magical knowledge is mostly time-related due to his magic crest.

Babbage literally runs on science and a Reality Marble that says "screw the second law of thermodynamics".

And again: the translation used is not Mystery. It is not the concept of being unknown. Things that work by reducing mystery work by making the supernatural seem mundane (not actually "oh this is unknown") or in Edison's case taking this thing and mass replicating it. Which is actually a different reason why mystery can be lost--an ancient item, broken and repaired, starts from scratch. Edison's NP is his mass replication philosophy, which replaces one original with lots of built up power with imitations.

[1Charak2]

@Raineh Daze
I know of that, you might also know I brought up king solomon which was a more important example since he was on the turning point of the age of gods and age of man.

The worlds foundation was entirely changed by its dominant species being man. Changing the foundation from Mystery to Physics is what lead to the phantasmal species leaving the world. As we know. Mystery is in decline because the foundation of the world shifted. Mages now are incapable of performing 'magic' and are stuck with mage craft due to mystery being a fraction of what it was.

Showing magic to the world whoms very foundation is antithetical to mystery would be the equivalent of spreading mystery too thin making it nearly useless.
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Disregarding human nature. Disregarding issues with the melting pot of servants. Disregarding even the fact that certain servants are naturally antithetical to eachother. Revealing Magecraft to the entire world is a detriment to the art. Since if we agree that mystery is a limited supply.

We must remember that Shirou emiya for some goddamn reason could use his nervous system as a means to use magecraft (He literally thought he had to create magic circuits whenever he used the art). He wasn't using his natural circuits at this time. He had turned his nerves into a means to cast magic. Meaning if Shirou, the 'average' boy can do that. What is to stop, hundreds or thousands of people from doing that. Which would draw heavily on mysteries supply.

Magecraft becomes common knowledge - Kiritsugus basic teaching method would likely be replicable by other mages, also common knowledge - A person with no knowledge in magecraft learns it the wrong way like Shirou did.

Suddenly you'll have new familys popping up that discovered their natural circuits or people turning their nerves into circuits (dangerous but possible)

Mystery spreads too thin in this scenario also.

TLDR: The World of Fate/ fails into a complete and utter poltiical and mechanical mess when we apply real-world logic to it (Which I seem like a complete and utter fool for doing so I admit). So for the sake of everyone I'm just going to stop and just go with the flow.

This was at least a insightful look into this worlds workings at least for me at least. So thanks everyone.

[Raineh Daze]

You're wrong, and I'm not going to bother arguing it further because you're just ignoring me on the fundamental point again and again.

What is to stop, hundreds or thousands of people from doing that.

Step one: not having real magic circuits that mean their body/soul is conditioned to take in and expel magical energy like that. Easy. "Why can't you make fake magic circuits? Because you don't have real ones."

[1Charak2]

@Raineh Daze

Im not a fan of someone saying 'your wrong' in a rather rude manner after I just wanted to stop this entirely so...

Shall we drop the entire sequential timeline then?

the timeline of the world, as put by the fate wiki

The time period beginning with the genesis of the Earth until the beginning of the Common Era around 0 AD is referred to as the Age of Gods , during which the world followed laws based not on physics but on Mystery. This period is marked by a greater proliferation of Phantasmal Species and greater interaction between gods and mortals. This is the age of heroes and mythology, when rules of mankind and the laws of the world were different right down to the very fundamental physics of reality itself, but this period ended many years ago. Even Magecraft itself is described as being closer to Magic in this era and FSN Caster's abilities reinforce this concept. The currently-revealed Second Age of Gods eventually transitioned into the Age of Man due to three major events.

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First event:
Originally, gods existed in physical form as manifestations of nature itself, and ruled the Earth and its civilizations. The Deterioration began with the invasion of Sefar in 12,000 BC. After Sefar destroyed the majority of the Earth and a massive number of gods, she was finally beaten back by a Holy Sword forged in the core of the planet; however, due to the damage done by Sefar, the influence and power of the gods declined whereas those of humanity grew. The gods slowly began to lose their physical forms and eventually could only walk on the Earth by possessing compatible humans.

---

Second Event:

Realizing that if the weakening of the gods were to continue the Age of Gods itself would end, the gods of Mesopotamia created Gilgamesh around 2,600 BC as the keystone to connect the gods and humans. However, Gilgamesh unexpectedly rebelled against the gods and encouraged the complete separation of the gods and the humans. Due to this, the decline of the gods was accelerated and the gods lost their powers and became Divine Spirits, forced to exist in a higher dimension only able to observe the Earth without directly interfering. Later, the demise of Solomon the King of Magic accelerated the decline of Mystery.

---

Third Event:
A trigger occuring at around 700 BC

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Age of man: Begins a 0AD
Around 0 AD, the Age of Gods ended entirely and the population of humanity grew explosively. Because the Earth obeys the law of the most prosperous species on its surface, the rules of the world were completely changed from one that obeyed Mystery to one that obeyed physics. The Phantasmal Species ceded the Earth's surface to humans and moved to the Reverse Side of the World, where Mystery still thrives.

The current age is identified as the Age of Man, where Mysteries such as magecraft are dwindling in favor of science. The Five Magics were born in this age.

a mystery spoiler

Finally, This is what the wiki states on Mystery.
a sliver of power of many different types that comes from the Root. It is the source of all supernatural phenomena such as Magecraft or ESP, and beings such as True Ancestors, Dead Apostles, Servants, Spiritual Bodies, as well as Phantasmal Species show signs of Mystery Mystery accumulates over time and grows stronger with age.

Mystery is on the decline in the age of man, Allow me to bring up another example of mysteries decline with the character of Gray and the item that is the lance Rhongomyniad

The ability to use it has been passed down in a line descended from the relatives of King Arthur, and it is currently held by Gray. Her Mystic Code "Add" only existed as a temporary seal to stop the degradation of the weapon's Mystery in the first place.

According to your logic the lance should only get stronger. But its actually degrading over time. This is what the age of man does to mystery. The Lance can't retain its power anymore, so a seal has to exist to prevent the degradation. That is a pretty sorry state for the worlds mystery.

TLDR: Fate has so many writers it contradicts itself.

[KoL]

@1Charak2

Do you realize how many spoilers are in that thing you posted?

[1Charak2]

@KoL

I mean we are talking about a topic that requires dragging up every single niche part of fates lore, its in hiders now.

*I forgot the case files was airing as an anime currently*

[Raineh Daze]

Ignoring the hider because TL;DR and random spoilers* and you somehow read the wiki page on Mystery and got completely the wrong idea...

If Rhon was literally not falling apart, it would indeed get stronger (or rather, you could actually use it; age = power and it's already plenty strong and can overwhelm modern comparisons). But it's falling apart. Also mostly significant for its metaphysical purpose.

Actually extant Noble Phantasms that haven't degraded in power one bit (just their use being limited): Fragarach, Avalon, and Jack's knives. They all work fine, they're just not something people can use freely.

*AKA: I'm not entering into a debate where other people can be spoiled.

[KoL]

Also, I'm not a GM but I would like to point that this whole discussion is useless simply because one of BB's Alter Egos exists here. Something on the world clearly can't be right for that to happen.

I don't think any rules of logic (or lack of thereof) from the Nasuverse apply the moment that there's the most remote possibility of BB being involved.

[1Charak2]

@KoL

I did put that as my end point a few posts ago. And I wholly agree with this.

[PKMNB0Y]

What in the hell did I just walk back to...?

Okay, backlogging, backlogging...

VERDICT TIME.

I mean... I don't know what to say other than the fact that I'm siding with my co-GM here? Like, putting aside the ignorance of how global politics works (EVERYONE knows about the comparative indestructibility of Servants and how futile it is to take them on with modern equipment in this context as well as their comparative power, so it's better to cede them their ground on that weird little island in the Pacific) and how it's been a decade and a half since this stuff all started coming out, so the 'global sanctions' and the rioting question falls through. Besides, the UN allowed this, so why would they backpedal now?

(Don't answer this.)

Not going to bother expanding on the 'Mystery' question, though, since that's been handled and I stand by Vita and the rest on this.

Honestly, at this point it kinda feels like you're asking why the RP exists in the first place, to which I say: "because reasons." If Requiem can exist, so can this.

[Cu Chulainn]

Hmmm... Are we lacking more Archers or Riders at this point? owo

[VitaVitaAR]

@Cu Chulainn: Technically, we have one Archer(if you're counting Gil, given he's just Gilgamesh here) and no Riders.

[1Charak2]

@VitaVitaAR@PKMNB0Y

Alright I've decided that it might be best to change my servant application from Semiramis to somebody else. Since while semiramis is fine and all, The fact she is unable to leave her hanging gardens would make interaction with other servants extremely rare.

So may I subtract my Semiramis from the RP and replace her with a different servant more apt at walking around the cities.

[Cu Chulainn]

I'm honestly potentially considering some sort of Hindu Rider for fun interactions ;;"

[VitaVitaAR]

@1Charak2: If you want to swap characters I won't stop you.

@Cu Chulainn: That could be interesting.