Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Very little? Yes, low enough I would not take Act's story here and go around referencing it as if it's fact. I'd need hard proof before I do that.

Yes quite. Yet you go on to make a valid point. There's no point in saying "That didn't happen". There are numerous factors that should sink in before trying to neuter such a large claim, such as, "Well why would someone who lived through a horror movie want to give one hundred percent proof of what had occurred?" *I'm talking to Turt here*, Would Turtle like to ask a female victim of assault her Doctor's results of the pap smear? Her STD testing? Etcetera? Would Turtle like to butt in to her therapist's business, have a little talk with her Church pastor, have her show him the putrid crime scene?
Not to mention, there are some things that for some reason just don't get reported in the news, even murders. At least not through the news media the way I think he means. What if it not never got reported, what if a lot of other things happened that Turt couldn't know about just because he has nothing to do with it. By the way, just saying, you have something to do with it because I talked about it, isn't an excuse to go making railing accusations and attacking someone's credibility out of, well statistical analysis. People have been known to spontaneously combust. Does it make it any less fucking painful, after surviving being set on fire, God knows how, just because some bumbling, armchair detective, faux lie detecting Internet Tought Guy thinks he has the right to be a pain in the ass?

[Gwazi Magnum]

So Boerd said I did not choose to have the most potent emotional bond with her. The boyfriend entered knowing the risks, I was given no choice.

I find this only half holds up.
You're right in that you do not choose to be born to your parents, but you do choose to enter a relationship.

But in both cases you do not choose how you feel about them.
For example I did not choose to feel disconnected from my parents (mainly my mother) the way I am, that was just a result of having been raised in a mainly argumentative household.

Clarification cause that on its own makes it sound abusive

I was born with Autism at 3 years old, and was almost immediately being into ABA (Applied Behavioural Analysis) Therapy for the next 12 years of my life. We talked on this recently and she admitted to having reacted to me largely in fear in that if she went easy/allowed certain behaviour's to slip by that it would permanently wire itself as I got older and mess me up. So she was unnaturally paranoid, easy to freak out as a result. Especially when she is typically a very emotional person and I tend to be a very logical and hard facts sort of person.

We're currently working on fixing/improving the relationship. But it wasn't abusive, just we spent so much time arguing growing up I never had a chance to grow close to her.

And at the same time I did not choose to feel close my girlfriend at the time either, it was the natural result of chemistry.
Neither was me consciously going "I'm going to like/have strong feelings for ________ but not for ________".

You can easily end up feeling very close to your parents and not to your partner, very close to both, not close to either or very close to your partner but not your parent (as was my case).
If it ever is a case you feel very close to them, the individual committing suicide will cause mass harm for you regardless of how you know them.
It's just that in your case it's your parents you hold the closest relationship to, while for others it may be a partner, or a friend, a sibling, maybe even a pet. Everyone varies.

Bottom line, regardless of relation suicide hurts if you're close to the person. But it does not change the fact that it's that individuals chose to do what they wish with their life, not your choice.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Turtlicious said Ugh, I barely skimmed what you wrote, because again you're doing that thing where you use way more words then necessary.I was just laughing at him for the absolute ridiculous story. I am allowed to find things humurous and state my opinions am I not? Or are you going to try and rile the troops to get me banned again. You know for a group of people who talk about how much they want intelligent discussion, you guys seem to do a to discourage it.

So without even reading it you assume it's too long? :P
Well that's one fast way to remove yourself from a debate, refuse to listen to the other side.

And also, I was never one of the people who tried to ban you.
We discussed this in private before and you know this very well Turt.

ActRaiserTheReturned said
Yes quite. Yet you go on to make a valid point. There's no point in saying "That didn't happen". There are numerous factors that should sink in before trying to neuter such a large claim, such as, "Well why would someone who lived through a horror movie want to give one hundred percent proof of what had occurred?" *I'm talking to Turt here*, Would Turtle like to ask a female victim of assault her Doctor's results of the pap smear? Her STD testing? Etcetera? Would Turtle like to butt in to her therapist's business, have a little talk with her Church pastor, have her show him the putrid crime scene? Not to mention, there are some things that for some reason just don't get reported in the news, even murders. At least not through the news media the way I think he means. What if it not never got reported, what if a lot of other things happened that Turt couldn't know about just because he has nothing to do with it. By the way, just saying, you have something to do with it because I talked about it, isn't an excuse to go making railing accusations and attacking someone's credibility out of, well statistical analysis. People have been known to spontaneously combust. Does it make it any less fucking painful, after surviving being set on fire, God knows how, just because some bumbling, armchair detective, faux lie detecting Internet Tought Guy thinks he has the right to be a pain in the ass?

Holy shit... :/

That completely flew under the radar for me, and you're right. A ton of these cases do get unreported, and on top of that I was totally out of line to imply any claimed victim needs to bring such testimony/proof forward to make claims. Sorry man, I normally try to be careful on this stuff but I dropped the ball hard right there.

That being said, I still need to address future arguments made purely on the basis of the argument and not on the stories you mentioned above, may it influence my reading of your argument in a positive or negative way. That's the point of discussion/debate, to address it on the argument itself, not the individual or history behind it. But I was totally out of line to say proof of any kind should be expected when it comes to such a personal case/incident (and this is one of the rare cases you'll catch me saying something like this. Almost all kinds of things require some evidence to back it up, such as say if this was in court and the case was over charging _______ with rape.

And I'm rambling at this point...
Put plainly, I messed up (badly) and I apologize. I should not expect anyone to ever be required to provide proof for a claim such as being raped.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Magic Magnum said
So without even reading it you assume it's too long? :PWell that's one fast way to remove yourself from a debate, refuse to listen to the other side.And also, I was never one of the people who tried to ban you.We discussed this in private before and you know this very well Turt.Holy shit... :/That completely flew under the radar for me, and you're right. A ton of these cases do get unreported, and on top of that I was totally out of line to imply claimed victim needs to bring such testimony/proof forward to make claims. Sorry man, I normally try to be careful on this stuff but I dropped the ball hard right there.That being said, I still need to address future arguments made purely on the basis of the argument and not on the stories you mentioned above, may it influence my reading of your argument in a positive or negative way. That's the point of discussion/debate, to address it on the argument itself, not the individual or history behind it. But I was totally out of line to say proof of any kind should be expected when it comes to such a personal case/incident (and this is one of the rare cases you'll catch me saying something like this. Almost kinds of things require some evidence to back it up, such as say if this was in court and the case was over charging _______ with rape.And I'm rambling at this point...Put plainly, I messed up (badly) and I apologize. I should not expect anyone to ever be required to provide proof for a claim such as being raped.

Alright. I wasn't necessarily aiming this at you, but thank you for your integrity. :D
Apology accepted. I need to sleep. Night.
^_^

[Turtlicious]

Yes getting super defensive is the right way to go.

e: As a bumbling, armchair detective, faux lie detecting Internet Tought Guy who has the right to be a pain in the ass, I'd just like to say I was arguing completely in good faith, since most people run to the mods as soon as an opinion that rustles a few feathers is posted.

Let's all just chill out for a moment.

[Turtlicious]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
*I'm talking to Turt here*, Would Turtle like to ask a female victim of assault her Doctor's results of the pap smear.

I'm sorry, but there is a huge difference between a woman saying they were raped, and your claim of being gang-raped, then prostituted, then witnessed the axe-murder of your teenage pimp who groomed you since you were 7. If you can't see the difference between those two things, I just have another reason to laugh.

[Xiga]

By just reading the title of the thread and butting in; I think that suicide is a bit of both, both ways.
Suicide is tragic not only in the way that someone loved dies, and that the person wont come back. Its tragic in the way that the suicide victim was pushed to a point where he/she saw no other options than to end his/her life. It also ties to the second part, selfishness.

Every case is different, and usually(What i think at least) when someone is driven to take their own life, the thought of it being selfish isn't even on the persons mind. AND i think that, if someone has suicidal tendensies, although not always noticable, an aditional reason for the person to FEEL so suicidal is because everyone around him/her has turned a blind eye to the person reaching out, OR seemed too selfish to notice (definitely not all of the cases here).

Point is; I think that both selfishness and tragedy are a cause AND an effect of a suicide.

[Gat]

Right... thread wrapped... Xiga just nailed it... seriously...

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Turtlicious said
I'm sorry, but there is a huge difference between a woman saying they were raped, and your claim of being gang-raped, then prostituted, then witnessed the axe-murder of your teenage pimp who groomed you since you were 7. If you can't see the difference between those two things, I just have another reason to laugh.

He uh, 'seduced" me, like I said, in broad daylight, but he wasn't pimping me out. He was number six is all I mean. Then I witnessed him "getting the axe" so to speak.

[Brovo]

@Xiga: I believe this is yours.



Thread over. Go home everyone.

[Revans Exile]

The world is for those willing to live if you are not willing to live then check out however you feel most comfortable.

[Tydosius]

Brovo said
As for those bringing in "you're ruining God's plans" into the mix: God, if you believe he exists, is . He planned for suicide. If he didn't, he's not omniscient, or omnipotent.

First of all, free will. It can't be removed. It can be dampened, a lot, but not removed. Second of all, in a universe of chaos and free will, a plan can fail, and omnipotence is something we assume has the same meaning as god-like, even if, well, it isn't true.
Sorry, sorry, cool like fonz, cool like fonz.
On topic, it is not selfish to commit suicide, but it is infuriating. It also evokes those weird emotions that regular feeling humans have.

[Brovo]

Tydosius said
First of all, free will. It can't be removed. It can be dampened, a lot, but not removed. Second of all, in a universe of chaos and free will, a plan can fail, and omnipotence is something we assume has the same meaning as god-like, even if, well, it isn't true.Sorry, sorry, cool like fonz, cool like fonz.On topic, it is not selfish to commit suicide, but it is infuriating. It also evokes those weird emotions that regular feeling humans have.

Hm. To quickly rebuttle without derailing.

1. In a universe where any entity can know the future with any sort of certainty (omniscience) and shape it with absolute certainty (omnipotence), there is no such thing as free will, in the same sense that no matter how well designed an AI is in a computer game, it will always perform the functions you programmed it to.

2. A God may or may not exist. I don't know. That God may or may not be perfect. I don't know. It may not even be a God, it may be space aliens, or it may be nothing at all and we simply formed as a natural process. I don't really know... But on a topic as sensitive as suicide, God should take a back seat to the person's well being first and foremost.

Family, friends, counseling, psychiatric evaluation, medical assistance--all far more important than a god in the case of suicide. If your best argument against suicide is that it might make a being whose mere existence is unprovable frustrated that things didn't go accordingly to plan, you have massively skewered priorities considering this is a person's life on the line.

But, free will. The person will do as they may. The best one can do is support them emotionally and try to guide them to a healthy course, then respect whatever decision it is they end up making for themselves, so long as they do it with a sound mind.

[Zeltron]

Short answer, both.

[So Boerd]

Brovo said
Hm. To quickly rebuttle without derailing.1. In a universe where any entity can know the future with any sort of certainty (omniscience) and shape it with absolute certainty (omnipotence), there is no such thing as free will, in the same sense that no matter how well designed an AI is in a computer game, it will always perform the functions you programmed it to.2. A God may or may not exist. I don't know. That God may or may not be perfect. I don't know. It may not even be a God, it may be space aliens, or it may be nothing at all and we simply formed as a natural process. I don't really know... But on a topic as sensitive as suicide, God should take a back seat to the person's well being first and foremost. Family, friends, counseling, psychiatric evaluation, medical assistance--all far more important than a god in the case of suicide. If your best argument against suicide is that it might make a being whose mere existence is unprovable frustrated that things didn't go accordingly to plan, .But, free will. The person will do as they may. The best one can do is support them emotionally and try to guide them to a healthy course, then respect whatever decision it is they end up making for themselves, so long as they do it with a sound mind.

I believe this is what MDK is talking about.

[Brovo]

So Boerd said
I believe this is what MDK is talking about.

Was arguing that regardless of whether he was a thing or not this was a person to person issue. God can come in later if you want, but not at this step. That's all.

[Lanre]

So I skimmed the topic and now I’m going to write a small amount on my opinion.

I think it is selfish to kill oneself. I suppose it’s tragic too, if mostly for those alive. However, might it also be selfish when people who know how badly a person is suffering are encouraging said person to live just so they won’t suffer?

As quite a few people in this thread seem to I have depression, as well as an array of other problems which won’t ever go away and they cause me mass amounts of despair, daily or near daily. I’ve been suicidal for quite some time now and almost every night I hope I don’t wake up tomorrow. I won’t go into all the details of my miseries but there were three occasions during which I planned to kill myself. The first is a bit of an outlier and it wasn’t because I was miserable, I just wanted to die. But the other two times it was because I found life to be too unbearable and realistically, there was no future I could see which I could be happy in. Both times I planned. I waited. I talked with people and I considered everyone I could potentially hurt by doing. Nevertheless, by my obvious post here, something did prevent me from carrying it out. I know one of the times I didn’t because I didn’t want anyone to have to clean my room. My thoughts were something along the lines of “I should at least finish this so they’ll have less to deal with.”

I've often regretted that I never did it end it at those times. Things haven’t gotten better and I can't see how they will. By now the reason I am alive is because of the people who I know would grieve. Not all of them, but a select few. I think too many people give death too much importance while not giving life its enough.

I haven’t slept in quite some time so this may just be a mess of mumbles.

[KnightShade]

The only really constant views I have on the subject is that everyone has a right to end their life, just as they have a right to live it. I think the government should have a responsibility to try and keep people from feeling as though suicide is the best option, there is only so much they can do but most governments should be doing more.

Oh, and I find it slightly darkly funny and sad to imagine people who knew someone who committed suicide being told to get over feeling bad about it, I'm not suggesting that should happen just highlighting that I believe if you consider that acceptable or unacceptable you should probably have a similar attitude to comments to that affect directed at the suicidal.