I want to hear people's opinions on this. Someone I work with hung herself last Wednesday. I hardly knew her, but many people I know are grieving. I have mixed opinions. What does everyone else think about this taboo?
Pretty unanimously selfish. I know, you're going to get a lot of 'It depends on the situation' replies... fact is, someone who cares about you has to find your dead body and mop your death-poop off the floor, and yes, they'll remember you from now on -- but that's how. As a poop-covered body with a bloated face. They have to live with that from now on, all because you wanted to climb up on the cross.
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TheNewGirl
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mdk said
Pretty unanimously selfish. I know, you're going to get a lot of 'It depends on the situation' replies... fact is, someone who cares about you has to find your dead body and mop your death-poop off the floor, and yes, they'll remember you from now on -- but that's how. As a poop-covered body with a bloated face. They have to live with that from now on, all because you wanted to climb up on the cross.
I understand.
People say it's the "Coward's way out", there's nothing cowardly about going against every human instinct to survive. I wouldn't call it courage, and certainly not bravery, but it's something somewhat admirable.
That's what makes it a tricky subject to comment upon.
MistressCyanide The Poison In Your Veins
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6 yrs ago
Well it is both really, it is selfish that they leave there family, friends and partner if they had one that loved them behind and it is tragic to the point of what caused them to do such a thing; why did no one pick up on it and help them. Those taking their own life seem to forget about the people they are leaving behind and who care for them which creates more damage than they know. At the same time there only so far one can go; some can carry on more than others. This is something many will either side with one or the other while a small group will see it as both tragic and selfish.
I have personally struggled with suicidal thoughts myself, and frankly to call it selfish is a form of victim blaming. If anything it's a sign that a person has been fighting far too long and are exhausted. It's a call for help perhaps. That is crucial since I feel a lot of people who struggle with this sort of thing feel like nobody cares about them enough to help. With that said, it's tragic that this girl actually went through with it, but now that's she's gone there's not really much that can be done unfortunately.
When I was in Eight grade I remember being extremely depressed and having suicidal thoughts. I remember that the depression was something that kinda built up over the years, but it wasn't until 8th grade that it became as severe as it did. I told one of my friends about it, and showed her a 'suicide' note I had written. I can't remember how, but she got her hands on the note and turned it in to one of my teachers. I remember one day my mom came out and talked to me about the note I had written, the teacher had given it to her.
Her exact words were "Do you know how selfish suicide is?", then she proceeded to 'talk' to me, but I explicitly remember her talk being more of an angry lecture than an actual heart to heart conversation. She asked me why I had written the note, and I told her because I just felt really sad, although I couldn't really put my finger on WHY i was feeling depressed (or I didn't want to tell her because she had just proceeded to make me feel like I was in the wrong). Regardless, she brushed it off and made me feel stupid for confining in her. Plus it's funny that I never remember any kind of intervention on the schools behalf, despite the teacher handing the letter over to my mom.
Then again, (maybe a year later), I remember I went to a church camp where they had this little 'Prayer Wall' where people could write prayers. I wrote something along the lines of "I hate my life. I've been considering suicide." I guess the head speaker of the camp had read it, because that night he came up on stage and read what I had written out loud to some 2,000+ people (luckily I left it anonymous), then proceeded to say "Do you have any idea how selfish that is, to want to kill yourself, when god and your family love you...". Once again, not his exact words, I can't remember them exactly, but it was something along those lines.
I'm speaking from personal experience here when I say that both my mom and the church just shrugging it off, and calling suicide "selfish" did far more harm for me than help. All it did was make me feel distanced from them, made them unapproachable and I felt like I had no one to talk to. I completely agree that calling suicide selfish is victim blaming. I think too many people associate suicide with crying for attention (or whatever reason they have for calling it selfish), and they kind of approach it with a "just get over it" attitude, and when you're dealing with someone who is actually suicidal, it doesn't do anything but ostracize them. The saddest part, is that I imagine most suicidal people trying to reach out to someone at one point or another, and the person they're reaching out to either handles it improperly or doesn't know how to handle it.
Her exact words were "Do you know how selfish suicide is?", then she proceeded to 'talk' to me, but I explicitly remember her talk being more of an angry lecture than an actual heart to heart conversation. She asked me why I had written the note, and I told her because I just felt really sad, although I couldn't really put my finger on WHY i was feeling depressed (or I didn't want to tell her because she had just proceeded to make me feel like I was in the wrong). Regardless, she brushed it off and made me feel stupid for confining in her. Plus it's funny that I never remember any kind of intervention on the schools behalf, despite the teacher handing the letter over to my mom.
Then again, (maybe a year later), I remember I went to a church camp where they had this little 'Prayer Wall' where people could write prayers. I wrote something along the lines of "I hate my life. I've been considering suicide." I guess the head speaker of the camp had read it, because that night he came up on stage and read what I had written out loud to some 2,000+ people (luckily I left it anonymous), then proceeded to say "Do you have any idea how selfish that is, to want to kill yourself, when god and your family love you...". Once again, not his exact words, I can't remember them exactly, but it was something along those lines.
I'm speaking from personal experience here when I say that both my mom and the church just shrugging it off, and calling suicide "selfish" did far more harm for me than help. All it did was make me feel distanced from them, made them unapproachable and I felt like I had no one to talk to. I completely agree that calling suicide selfish is victim blaming. I think too many people associate suicide with crying for attention (or whatever reason they have for calling it selfish), and they kind of approach it with a "just get over it" attitude, and when you're dealing with someone who is actually suicidal, it doesn't do anything but ostracize them. The saddest part, is that I imagine most suicidal people trying to reach out to someone at one point or another, and the person they're reaching out to either handles it improperly or doesn't know how to handle it.
The Nexerus Sui generis
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2 yrs ago
TheNewGirl said I wouldn't call it courage, and certainly not bravery, but it's something somewhat admirable.
"but it's something somewhat admirable."
No. Resisting the will to live is not admirable; it's also not impressive, or any other adjective you might have fumbled around using in that sentence. There is nothing to be appreciated in the behaviour of someone who commits suicide. What you're implying is tantamount to respecting a rapist for being able to overcome his moral boundaries and live according to bestial passion. Suicide isn't something to be romanticized.
Rare The Inquisitor
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7 yrs ago
It's almost selfish, but weak. Instead of defending yourself, you just give up and kill yourself. It's weak and selfish, you're hurting your loved ones, families, and friends because of someone that called you ugly. Tell someone about it before you kill yourself!
Commander Leader of Men
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4 mos ago
As somebody who has battled severe depression (and a number of other mental health illnesses) for the better half of his life I want to share my own opinion. Whether or not suicide is selfish, is pure opinion, not truth or fact. It should be an individual right. If you want to judge that person, go ahead and congratulations on being an asshole. You probably have no idea what they're going through. Sometimes a person is in so much mental of physical pain, and with modern medicine not being a cure all, who is anybody to say it's wrong, or immoral, or whatever bullshit adjective you might find in your dictionary. If somebody is determined to do it, they will, and if you don't like, well tough shit. Yes it's painful to those around them, but if they're finally at peace, then God speed. Those around them will mourn, yet find the strength to move on. Death comes for all of us, regardless of method.
Cayden Black The Lost Poet
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5 yrs ago
This is a very touchy subject for many people I can imagine, I can only go on what I think of the idea.
I have thought about such things before, I do not say I would commit to any of them, I am too afraid of Death itself to permit myself to do anything of the kind. I also find that many stories seem to be of people (stories I hear of anyway) who wish to escape the pain of life and spare their loved ones the grief of watching them suffer. I know this is not always the case but I still do not believe that suicide solves the issues. I just hope that I never see anyone I know commit to such an act.
The loss of a life, no matter how distressed, is a ripple felt across a world of souls. Never under estimate how many lives you may affect by your actions.
I have thought about such things before, I do not say I would commit to any of them, I am too afraid of Death itself to permit myself to do anything of the kind. I also find that many stories seem to be of people (stories I hear of anyway) who wish to escape the pain of life and spare their loved ones the grief of watching them suffer. I know this is not always the case but I still do not believe that suicide solves the issues. I just hope that I never see anyone I know commit to such an act.
The loss of a life, no matter how distressed, is a ripple felt across a world of souls. Never under estimate how many lives you may affect by your actions.
Brand said
When I was in Eight grade I remember being extremely depressed and having suicidal thoughts. I remember that the depression was something that kinda built up over the years, but it wasn't until 8th grade that it became as severe as it did. I told one of my friends about it, and showed her a 'suicide' note I had written. I can't remember how, but she got her hands on the note and turned it in to one of my teachers. I remember one day my mom came out and talked to me about the note I had written, the teacher had given it to her. Her exact words were "Do you know how selfish suicide is?", then she proceeded to 'talk' to me, but I explicitly remember her talk being more of an angry lecture than an actual heart to heart conversation. She asked me why I had written the note, and I told her because I just felt really sad, although I couldn't really put my finger on WHY i was feeling depressed (or I didn't want to tell her because she had just proceeded to make me feel like I was in the wrong). Regardless, she brushed it off and made me feel stupid for confining in her. Plus it's funny that I never remember any kind of intervention on the schools behalf, despite the teacher handing the letter over to my mom.Then again, (maybe a year later), I remember I went to a church camp where they had this little 'Prayer Wall' where people could write prayers. I wrote something along the lines of "I hate my life. I've been considering suicide." I guess the head speaker of the camp had read it, because that night he came up on stage and read what I had written out loud to some 2,000+ people (luckily I left it anonymous), then proceeded to say "Do you have any idea how selfish that is, to want to kill yourself, when god and your family love you...". Once again, not his exact words, I can't remember them exactly, but it was something along those lines. I'm speaking from personal experience here when I say that both my mom and the church just shrugging it off, and calling suicide "selfish" did far more harm for me than help. All it did was make me feel distanced from them, made them unapproachable and I felt like I had no one to talk to. I completely agree that calling suicide selfish is victim blaming. I think too many people associate suicide with crying for attention (or whatever reason they have for calling it selfish), and they kind of approach it with a "just get over it" attitude, and when you're dealing with someone who is actually suicidal, it doesn't do anything but ostracize them. The saddest part, is that I imagine most suicidal people trying to reach out to someone at one point or another, and the person they're reaching out to either handles it improperly or doesn't know how to handle it.
I don't think *feeling suicidal* is selfish at all. Feeling bad happens. Feeling really bad is tragic. Sticking your family with the bill for that is unacceptable..... and I say that from the safety of my little window to the world, obviously, I mean there's a tactful way to talk to somebody who's struggling. But as long as we're here, I'm not going to pretend there's a good excuse to toss all your sorrows onto someone else (I can say that with some credibility, if you're familiar with my life at all).
There's a better way to say that. I'm not really looking to soften it at the moment though. I fiercely love being alive. For now, if I can impart some of that fire, I've accomplished my goal. There's a time for a soft shoulder, too, but right now.... fire.
Gwazi Magnum
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6 yrs ago
This is a big and complex topic, so I'd like to get the most simple/obvious parts out of the way first before I delve into the rest of it.
First, let's look at one extreme where I think we'd all be in some agreement, suicide bomber's/terrorists. They are ending their own life basically for the sole purpose of causing harm on others cause their God/Beliefs say so. This is can very easily be called selfish and left at that, but even this is not that simple since they had to be raised to have such hate/beliefs to begin with. So is that truly selfishness or a sad story of a promising individual who was convinced to end their life because of how they were raised?
Now for the Suicide topic which this topic seems to actually be referencing, suicide as a result of Depression.
I'll go at this from the assumption the person actually has depression, and isn't someone who simply self-diagnosed and is using it as an excuse for everything they do in life.
-Side Note: Seriously, if you're self-diagnosing and using it as an excuse for how you treat others just stop. Now.
I've been at the receiving end of that before, all you do is hurt those who care for you and make things worse for those who actually struggle with Depression.
*Back to being on topic*
Originally I was tempted to say "There is a trace of selfishness, you are choosing to end your life and make those that care for you suffer". But then I stopped and thought of it another way. Depression and every other mental illness is for all intents and purposes a wound, an injury and alteration of the mind. It is not something we can help, and it is a wound that is not obvious like a physical one.
It is one where you truly need to know a person to know the wound is there, and even then you may not know they have such a wound. If someone were to have a weak heart for example would you blame them? Would you get mad at them for having a wound inflicted on them they couldn't control? Of course you wouldn't. Why should something like Depression be treated any differently?
Depression actually releases hormones that alter the way we think, act and feel. We can't help it anymore than we can help being attracted to someone cause of the hormones we produce, or the fact we have certain interests and things that make us happy. We don't consciously choose "I'm going to enjoy ______ and be attracted to _______", it just happens. Someone feeling suicidal killing themselves is not a sign of selfishness, it's losing what probably was a very hard and difficult battle against a condition they had no say in having or not. No one chooses to be Depressed, no one chooses to be suicidal. If someone had cancer and died, would be mad at them for being selfish and not fighting hard enough to stay with their family? Of course we wouldn't. Both are conditions that are unwillingly thrown onto us, both are conditions that can lead us to dying, both are conditions that cause us to go through a hard battle every step of the way. The only difference they have at the heart of it is that one is physical and obvious, and the other is mental and not so obvious.
Next time you see someone whose depressed and have suicidal thoughts don't treat them as if they are selfish. Treat and respect them the same way you would someone who had another kind of illness that was killing them or at the very least making their life much harder to go through.
First, let's look at one extreme where I think we'd all be in some agreement, suicide bomber's/terrorists. They are ending their own life basically for the sole purpose of causing harm on others cause their God/Beliefs say so. This is can very easily be called selfish and left at that, but even this is not that simple since they had to be raised to have such hate/beliefs to begin with. So is that truly selfishness or a sad story of a promising individual who was convinced to end their life because of how they were raised?
Now for the Suicide topic which this topic seems to actually be referencing, suicide as a result of Depression.
I'll go at this from the assumption the person actually has depression, and isn't someone who simply self-diagnosed and is using it as an excuse for everything they do in life.
-Side Note: Seriously, if you're self-diagnosing and using it as an excuse for how you treat others just stop. Now.
I've been at the receiving end of that before, all you do is hurt those who care for you and make things worse for those who actually struggle with Depression.
*Back to being on topic*
Originally I was tempted to say "There is a trace of selfishness, you are choosing to end your life and make those that care for you suffer". But then I stopped and thought of it another way. Depression and every other mental illness is for all intents and purposes a wound, an injury and alteration of the mind. It is not something we can help, and it is a wound that is not obvious like a physical one.
It is one where you truly need to know a person to know the wound is there, and even then you may not know they have such a wound. If someone were to have a weak heart for example would you blame them? Would you get mad at them for having a wound inflicted on them they couldn't control? Of course you wouldn't. Why should something like Depression be treated any differently?
Depression actually releases hormones that alter the way we think, act and feel. We can't help it anymore than we can help being attracted to someone cause of the hormones we produce, or the fact we have certain interests and things that make us happy. We don't consciously choose "I'm going to enjoy ______ and be attracted to _______", it just happens. Someone feeling suicidal killing themselves is not a sign of selfishness, it's losing what probably was a very hard and difficult battle against a condition they had no say in having or not. No one chooses to be Depressed, no one chooses to be suicidal. If someone had cancer and died, would be mad at them for being selfish and not fighting hard enough to stay with their family? Of course we wouldn't. Both are conditions that are unwillingly thrown onto us, both are conditions that can lead us to dying, both are conditions that cause us to go through a hard battle every step of the way. The only difference they have at the heart of it is that one is physical and obvious, and the other is mental and not so obvious.
Next time you see someone whose depressed and have suicidal thoughts don't treat them as if they are selfish. Treat and respect them the same way you would someone who had another kind of illness that was killing them or at the very least making their life much harder to go through.
Big shout out to Dark Wind.
He was perhaps the main person who let me learn more on Depression and look at it from an understanding perspective rather than one who is quick to throw judgement and label it as selfish. I had gone through experiences in life with people who had Depression where for a while I looked at anyone with it as fakers. Selfish people who only wanted popularity, attention and to avoid owning up to their actions. His words a long time ago had helped open my eyes to the issue being far more complex than I originally thought I'd like to give him proper thanks for that may he be reading this or not. :)
He was perhaps the main person who let me learn more on Depression and look at it from an understanding perspective rather than one who is quick to throw judgement and label it as selfish. I had gone through experiences in life with people who had Depression where for a while I looked at anyone with it as fakers. Selfish people who only wanted popularity, attention and to avoid owning up to their actions. His words a long time ago had helped open my eyes to the issue being far more complex than I originally thought I'd like to give him proper thanks for that may he be reading this or not. :)
Pepperm1nts Revolutionary Rabblerouser
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4 mos ago
My opinion on suicide is rather simplistic. And I'll admit, probably ignorant.
To me, the concept of suicide is infuriating, if anything. Particularly with developed countries, where some kids commit suicide for some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard. So I've never really felt much sympathy for people who contemplate or commit suicide. I do wish it could have been prevented. It's a life, after all. I believe in helping people through their hardships before it's too late. But I don't really feel bad when they commit suicide.
As an Atheist, I don't believe in an afterlife. So when you end your own life, it's over. That's it. You have only one life, life is precious. So life is almost always worth living. Especially in developed countries. Like, I can imagine some person in some 3rd world country who lives as a slave and goes through REAL suffering daily, with no way out of it, contemplating suicide. And in that case, I can almost understand. But I don't really get all choked up when some teenager slits his wrists because his school mates were tough on him. Life is almost always worth living, no matter what.
But maybe I'm just a shit person like that. And I've never been through real depression, so I can't relate.
To me, the concept of suicide is infuriating, if anything. Particularly with developed countries, where some kids commit suicide for some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard. So I've never really felt much sympathy for people who contemplate or commit suicide. I do wish it could have been prevented. It's a life, after all. I believe in helping people through their hardships before it's too late. But I don't really feel bad when they commit suicide.
As an Atheist, I don't believe in an afterlife. So when you end your own life, it's over. That's it. You have only one life, life is precious. So life is almost always worth living. Especially in developed countries. Like, I can imagine some person in some 3rd world country who lives as a slave and goes through REAL suffering daily, with no way out of it, contemplating suicide. And in that case, I can almost understand. But I don't really get all choked up when some teenager slits his wrists because his school mates were tough on him. Life is almost always worth living, no matter what.
But maybe I'm just a shit person like that. And I've never been through real depression, so I can't relate.
Protagonist
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7 mos ago
As a Christian, I believe that people created for a purpose. By killing yourself, you're usually preventing yourself from fulfilling said purpose, and that's just no good.
It could be selfish, but does that mean it's unacceptable? Where it becomes tricky is where you weigh your needs against those of others. I know of this woman who was admitted to a mental clinic because she could not stop blaming herself over her miscarriage. Eventually she committed suicide because she could not live with the weight she placed upon herself. Sure, she still had people who loved her, and maybe there was nothing she could have done to prevent the miscarriage. Still, there's only an extent to which people can control their emotions. You can call that a lack of strength, but then I ask what kind of expectations you have of a human being?
Even being selfish by default is something I'd pull into question. I've met another girl who had struggled with clinical depression for years on end and didn't see an outcome. She was pretty much diagnosed to never 'get better.' When she made the decision to end her life she explicitly planned her suicide to cause the least possible amount of damage to her surroundings, spent months on how she would be found, how to best convince her parents it wasn't their fault, etc. On her part it was a rational decision, even if it was one that hurt her environment, but it was that or live in despair and be a constant burden on your surroundings because of it. I'm not sure if I'd shelve that under selfish.
I don't think people understand every situation and it's a subject just so far away from them that they sort of generalise it. I'll be the first to agree there's a lot of stupid people doing stupid things and that jumping in front of a car is a total jerk-move given the multitude of alternatives out there, but it's not always so simple.
I'm going to try really hard not to let my personal feelings on this shine though, so forgive me if I do, but I want to ask you if you believe god created you the way you are, but upholds the same bar to get into heaven regardless of the trials he puts you through, is it fair to judge persons with different living conditions or health concerns than you?
Even being selfish by default is something I'd pull into question. I've met another girl who had struggled with clinical depression for years on end and didn't see an outcome. She was pretty much diagnosed to never 'get better.' When she made the decision to end her life she explicitly planned her suicide to cause the least possible amount of damage to her surroundings, spent months on how she would be found, how to best convince her parents it wasn't their fault, etc. On her part it was a rational decision, even if it was one that hurt her environment, but it was that or live in despair and be a constant burden on your surroundings because of it. I'm not sure if I'd shelve that under selfish.
I don't think people understand every situation and it's a subject just so far away from them that they sort of generalise it. I'll be the first to agree there's a lot of stupid people doing stupid things and that jumping in front of a car is a total jerk-move given the multitude of alternatives out there, but it's not always so simple.
Protagonist said
As a Christian, I believe that people created for a purpose. By killing yourself, you're usually preventing yourself from fulfilling said purpose, and that's just no good.
I'm going to try really hard not to let my personal feelings on this shine though, so forgive me if I do, but I want to ask you if you believe god created you the way you are, but upholds the same bar to get into heaven regardless of the trials he puts you through, is it fair to judge persons with different living conditions or health concerns than you?
It's the person's choice to choose to end their own lives. Selfish, in that their pain isn't eliminated, it's merely passed on to those around them who will grieve their passing, but ultimately... If a person, after an extended duration of time (that is, more than a simple emotional outburst) cannot deal with life and wishes to end their own life, especially in cases with the highly disabled or the elderly... Then it is equally selfish to tell those people that they are not allowed to end their own lives because it might hurt you.
EDIT
As for those bringing in "you're ruining God's plans" into the mix: God, if you believe he exists, is omnipotent and omniscient. He planned for suicide. If he didn't, he's not omniscient, or omnipotent.
EDIT
As for those bringing in "you're ruining God's plans" into the mix: God, if you believe he exists, is omnipotent and omniscient. He planned for suicide. If he didn't, he's not omniscient, or omnipotent.
Cayden Black The Lost Poet
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5 yrs ago
I think, for this moment in time anyway (I argue with myself a lot on ethics) that things like this, no matter how tragic, will never have a logical order or filing system to be listed under. It is a tragedy yes, but you would never know how they came to that point without living their life.
Brovo said
It's the person's choice to choose to end their own lives. Selfish, in that their pain isn't eliminated, it's merely passed on to those around them who will grieve their passing, but ultimately... If a person, after an extended duration of time (that is, more than a simple emotional outburst) cannot deal with life and wishes to end their own life, especially in cases with the highly disabled or the elderly... Then it is equally selfish to tell those people that they are not allowed to end their own lives because it might hurt you.
EDIT
As for those bringing in "you're ruining God's plans" into the mix: God, if you believe he exists, is omnipotent and omniscient. He planned for suicide. If he didn't, he's not omniscient, or omnipotent.
As someone who struggles with suicidal thoughts from time to time, I agree. It's definitely selfish to commit suicide, and hurts others, but in cases where it's more like euthanasia then I'm for them getting to say "I want to die now". Quality of life is something to take into account when it comes to such thoughts, and if it's really not there... then yeah. Let them. It is selfish to deny them peace if they're suffering because you don't want to be bummed.
Edit: And really, this just gets into how society and cultures view death as well. With all the mourning. I personally find that response to death to be lame. If a good person dies, let there be a celebration, not of their passing, but of the life they lived. If a bad person dies, let there also be a celebration, because they're gone and can't do more bad things. Celebrate life, celebrate death, more parties less moping.
This is also why I don't want a traditional funeral when I die. Either throw a party and have fun, or do nothing. If you feel you need to mourn, don't do too much of it. Get it out of your system, then crack a smile and get on with your life.
Also, that 'don't speak ill of the dead' thing is bullshit.
Rare The Inquisitor
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7 yrs ago
I mean if they tried to get help then killed themselves, it's tragic. If they just kill themselves and didn't told people about it, then its selfish.
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