Vilageidiotx

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@Dinh AaronMk I'm very tired, but I will attempt to read and respond. Be lenient. <.<

I know that was a joke, but really people that can look at America. See that it's the most powerful, richest nation, largest population, who uses it's military overseas to protect the rest of the free world. Yada yada 'Murica' yada. Just saying to make a point. (of course every system is flawed and can be corrupted. Humans exist.) And go..."Yep, Capitalism probably doesn't work as well as Socialism does." and be sincere about it...the internet would not be what it is today, without it. (yes, it may have possibly existed, but not in it's current form.)

Just to briefly state a few things. The theory makes it seems likes it a universal statement. Like all people are equal in what jokes they find acceptable, but clearly isn't the case. The Irish went through plenty of shit and they had senses of humor and absolutely no one is rioting for past transgressions, nor are they offended by others making fun of them. (And honestly it seems a little racist to assume that blacks, are the only ones that -can't- take jokes from others outside their social circles.) Which I know isn't true, because friends or not. I was in a ghetto high school and lived there. Racial jokes are nearly an exclusive source of jokes, to friends and strangers. If you heard a joke, it would probably give the average crybaby on the net, a heart attack. Everyone of my friends grew up in the ghetto and not exactly well off and not all of them were black...But that aside.

If it's true, I must just know plenty of anomalies within the theory. I'm sure there's some truth to it, but at the same time I think. My point is more than ever people are taking jokes, far too seriously and trying to silence and label people as evil for jokes. Usually it's people getting offended for the sake of others who don't care. It's a growing and I'd argue a recent problem. Safe spaces did not exist back then...this is a legit concern of where the future is going. I don't find that because teenagers post things on the internet, that makes PC culture somehow valid. Freedom of speech is actually being attacked...(Canada right now, is undergoing parliament to ban all criticism of Islam...) That's not the only example, but it's a recent one. An example of literal thought policing. Which legit scares me to put into law. I can only fucking imagine, if something like this for Christianity passed in America...

@SleepingSilence

Canada isn't passing a ban on criticism of islam, it is passing a motion to condemn islamophobia. As in, it's not a law, it's just a statement. They won't enforce it.

Also, safe spaces are pretty old. A lot of "Safe spaces" are rebrands of what we used to call "Support groups."

Also also, racial jokes are still pretty fucking common. I feel like I'm in a bizarro land where we are all pretending that the racial joke is universally condemned or something

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

As I've said though, today in America, the weaponization of racism is the bigger and more serious threat. By far. What I'm arguing is that we've crossed a threshold -- we're not 'sifting through' the abuses to find the problems, we're so buried in abuses that we're simply dredging up something that looks almost real and pretending so that we can collectively exploit it. Systemically, and not just when it comes to race (though that's certainly the most prone to producing actual violence as an outcome). This is crazy stupid bad for us, as a population that live alongside one another, but we're doing it anyway because Drumpf I guess. (It's not Trump, it's virtue signalling, but that's another thread)

@mdk

I dunno, I don't think that is the case to be honest. I'm just not convinced that that the abuse of the race card is so out of control compared to the potential shit that would be caused by aborting the taboo. Shit does happen, but it seems to be systematically contained.

I mean, Donnie did get elected. The people who beat up that white kid in Chicago are being tried on a hate crime. Blue lives matter seems to have defeated the Black Lives. It's not like the race-card issue has completely overhauled the system to where these things can't happen.

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I'd also contend that there is no such existence of positive outcomes that directly or indirectly stem from anti-thought taboos established for the purpose of hopefully extinguishing returns of prejudicial practices to modern life. Not only that, anti-thought taboos have a tendency throughout history to be at the center of some of the most violent, murderous regimes and political groups of all time.

@Dark Wind

I disagree. I think the history of systematic racism speaks for itself. All those holocausts and genocides, that's what we are trying to avoid. I think it is important to remember that we are still the same species that committed every horror in our history. It's completely possible that even Western countries could commit pogroms again.

It is true that taboos have been created in the past by evil regimes, but I don't think this means the creation of taboos are a slippery slope kind of thing. If a regime comes to power with a plan to commit systematic white genocide in a western country, not by the scary fear of pluralism thing white nationalists have, but by systematic violence, then I'll be proven wrong.

I think that Jontron was expressing his opinion and Destiny was just belittling him. And that Jontron needs to spend more time improving his debating skills in general (like Sky Williams). I don't think that he is a racist at all, just like Pewdiepie is not one as well. I just think that everyone just assumed that he was a racist because his views were different than the standard views, which we often see in our daily lives. The word racism/racist are losing their original meaning and being used as an emotional response. And as a way of derailing a debate or discussion. Just like the word nazism/nazi.

@The Spectre

JonTron and Pewdiepie are two different situations though. Pewdiepie isn't a racist, he's just unfunny. JonTron actually insinuated some racist shit. I agree that we shouldn't let the word racism completely lose it's meaning, but that also means not going the other direction and thinking that racism requires explicit violence or slurs or whatever.

Also

I just think that everyone just assumed that he was a racist because his views were different than the standard views

when did the right wing get into post-modernism? i'm used to post modernism being something edgy left wing kids do. where the fuck this idea that it's not cool to call it racism, that it must be called a "non-standard" view come from? this is some weird shit. Is this the new political correctness?

Legal immigration has not always been the problem unlike illegal immigration. There is a difference between an illegal immigrant and a legal immigrant. The difference is easy to notice if people are willing to open their eyes. A legal immigrant follows the pathway by living in America for three to five years, meet all the requirements, and pass the Naturalization Test. An illegal immigrant just has to cross over the Mexican-American border, overstay their visas, and other things that I cannot name at the moment. Those politicians and 'spouting bobbleheads' hate illegal immigration not legal immigration. I do not know how disliking illegal immigration makes you an anti-immigration.

I think that America should have the ability to counter illegal immigration not just blindly accept it because "we are the country of freedom" or "America is the land of immigrants so we have no choice but to accept them."

And it isn't racist if you dislike illegal immigration and want to send them back so they have the opportunity to do it the legal way.

We do counter illegal immigration. This is political rhetoric more than anything, on both sides of the debate. Some places want to be able to sift through illegal immigrants so as to not cause unnecessary problems. I don't personally think that being against illegal immigration is an evil thing btw. I think it's a completely debatable subject that's been made stupid in the general discussion because both sides want to use it to gain political points.

That being said, the arguments about illegal immigration shouldn't be white genocide or shit like that, because that's just dumb. We can talk about taxes and wages and shit like that, but when we get into racial demographic BS (back to JonTron now), well... that's racist. Does that make him a Nazi? No. That makes him a Know-Nothing. But still a racist.

Just because somebody is racist in that way doesn't make them evil. Personally I just think JonTron is a dumbass. But just because they are not evil doesn't mean we must with-hold the racism term, since doing so would drain the term of all meaning. Just because some people have abused to term doesn't mean that racism no longer is a term at all.

i do have to say though...

I do not know how disliking illegal immigration makes you an anti-immigration.

It's easy to see how the two could be conflated because they often use the same talking points. The modern illegal immigrant freak-out is a replay of a lot of immigrant freak-outs in our past. Honestly, the immigrant question is one of the most consistent in our history. I'm from old American blood, have multiple ancestors who fought on the correct side of the American Revolution, and I bet you that I have ancestors somewhere back there that used the same anti-immigrant talking points against not only JonTron's ancestors (possibly), but most certainly Trump's ancestors.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

I'm sorry but you're exactly wrong. Let's highlight this arbitrary segment for emphasis: he seems to have some strange ideas about race that lean towards racism, but I'm not convinced hes an outright racist, I think hes just sipped some alt right kool-aid and hasnt had enough time to spit it up.

What you're doing here has nothing to do with 'facts not feelings' or scientifical existence or whatever else you decided to call it -- you're determining whether or not a person (or series of statements) warrants thought, based on whether or not he/they pass the 'racist' test. It is specifically and exactly an anti-thought experiment, and it's what the weaponization of racism has produced, and it's why I'm not with you (or anyone else who's doing it) on this. To be clear, I'm not blaming you for (not?) thinking along these lines -- it's not your fault, you didn't create this problem. The problem is really, really, really, really real though, and it's waaaaaaaaaay bigger than some SJWs on twitter.

@mdk

Because there is a serious concern that by not treating racism as a sort of taboo, awful shit will be made mainstream again.

Anytime we assign something as taboo, it does have an anti - thought component. Pedophilia is a good comparison. We can't argue the merit of it because we don't want to face the potential repercussions in what we normalize. We don't want to normalize open racism, and so we make these sorts of "anti - thought" judgments.

There are of course people who abuse it. Every moral imperative comes with that threat. The trade off for sifting through abusive uses of victimization is hopefully that we avoid full blown racial pogroms.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

>When you're so shit at being funny people thing you're serious
>When you're so shit at being funny the people who thing you're serious actually believe in what you say.

Well,you gotta make bank somewhere.

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

And sometimes cars.

@Dinh AaronMk

If you didn't light up at least one cop car in college, you were a dweeb.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

Also, I'm going to double post and call back to the comment made earlier about how people can't take a joke. There's actually a scientific theory about that. The benign violation theory states that in order for a joke to be considered funny it has to violate a perceived norm while being benign in nature. But when a joke actively or is told in a threatening way to an individual and it violates the benign aspect of the joke, then it becomes threatening.

@Dinh AaronMk

That would explain Milo's career. I'm convinced the guy is just a failed comedian because his jokes are always way too on the nose, so instead of applying for TMZ, he figured out how to take being unfunny and turned it into something political.

The only thing people should be lighting on fire in college should be the shots. :P

@SleepingSilence

And Starbucks. Jeez you didn't have no fun in college, did you?

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

The problem with a buzzword like racism is that it has many different meanings, and people tend to think of the strongest use of the word. You could call JonTron racist for his views, sure. We could call Dynamo Frokane a racist for implying that JonTron might be racist, even if he never directly said it. I could be called a racist for calling Dynamo black, because I'm "seeing his color." Everyone's scared of being called a racist because people still think it's a term that only applies to the worst kind of people.

@BrokenPromise

Acknowledging race is in itself not racist for the same reason that it isn't sexist to acknowledge another persons sex. The "-ism" comes in either exaggeration or plain old attributing what isn't attributable to race.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

I'll just start by saying I have absolutely no interest in JonTron, I don't think he is funny, and the only possible sentiment I have towards him is that I am glad that he is speaking up about his views because I hate it when people force their own ideology onto a youtuber without thinking (expecting a youtuber to vote a or b for some reason).

@Buddha

I think the implicated thesis is what people are alarmed by, not the statements as they exist when pulled out of that argument. When you have somebody like Jon Tron who isn't stating explicitly what his thesis is, it's not surprising people are going to wonder what he is getting at considering that particular list of facts.

Now I'm not even sure he is a racist...

@Garattee

I think the emotion tied to the word "Racist" makes people uncomfortable using it correctly. He's a racist. Doesn't mean he wants to build camps. Doesn't mean he wants to murder people.

If it makes people feel any better, most people are somewhat racist. We here probably aren't as racist as Jon Tron, and Jon Tron isn't as racist as, say, that Spencer guy what got popped in the jaw for being such a super racist. There are levels. Like a wise man once said...

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@Vilageidiotx I honestly don't know. It really does seem like it's becoming a real thing. I mean like I said, so many comedians, won't go to college campuses anymore...

For your grandma being offended at that, sort of brings me to an observation. I think there has always been a movement of older generations of people, thinking the things young people do are secretly evil and corrupting them. Books, Music, Art, Hobbies, TV, Internet, Video games, Tattoo's. What have you...but I've never in a long time. Seen people in their 20's, and people who are NOT old...making this no longer an old vs new divide. I don't feel like going to deep into it. But when you have fucking people in their 20's telling me shit equivalent to someone decades older than them like a fox news anchor explaining that Watch Dogs turns you into a hacker. SOMETHING, is going wrong in the current world.

@SleepingSilence

That was always true too though. I'm not going to say people aren't stupid or overreaction about shit, I just think they more or less always have been that way. If anything we just hear about it more now, since we are plugged into this stuff pretty much constantly via the internet.

<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>

I dunno what it is that's gone wrong, but I bet we can fix it by lighting whatever campus Milo visits on fire and pummeling everybody who shows up. I mean it's been working so far.

@mdk

What is the point of college if you don't get to light things on fire at least once, realistically. Politics in the twenty first century is a sport, and sports fans of all kinds need their riots.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@Vilageidiotx Fair enough. I guess it sort of is just by simple definition that my discussion does sort of boil down too "back in meh day." I dunno, I just think talent has been lost and growing stale for a while now. I don't think Political Correctness necessarily is the ONLY reason. Maybe arguably not the biggest influence. But something in me just feels the way culture is now. That the new "funny" people just aren't bothering for a multitude of reasons. I mean that's one reason stand up comedy is dying in younger circles, people can't take jokes and don't want to offend and these people will grow up as the next generation of artists, musicians, comedians and such?

But that's beside the point. I just want to be able have something to watch again dammit. >.>

@SleepingSilence

I really think this "Young people can't take a joke" thing is super overblown. There are a few people who get offended and it is blown out of proportion. That was true back in the day too. My great grandma walked out on Blazing Saddles, incidentally, because it offended her.

That Chapelle special on Netflix garnered some controversy, but it's still highly rated and being watched the fuck out of.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@Vilageidiotx

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

Well that seems reasonable enough. :P

Sure it's there right. As childish as it seems when either political side does it. But I don't do them, mainly because boycotts usually end up getting the exact opposite done. (Aka backfire.)
Like chic-fil-a for instance. There is something/an idea that actually does more good. A 'buycott' actually spending money to somebody that did something good and you want to support. Those don't backfire and make people overnight millionaires...

Not one of his best ones, but I suppose I understand when you hear controversy of someone you barely know anything from, the thought of "Well guess I dodged a bullet." Can't really say much about that. (*likes another meme youtube video* I swear this past week has been full of them. o.o)

Well I believe comedy in general has changed. I'd love someone to make a Blazing Saddles of today. It straight up wouldn't happen...and honestly it really does seem like comedy has changed everywhere. New cartoons aren't even nearly as funny, nostalgia not withstanding. But that may be just because of the whole. "People who watched cartoons are now making the new cartoons, so they don't have as much experience." But seriously, most super comedic youtubers were chased off the internet. The ones that were more outrageous in past, stopped for fear of backlash or just ran out of actual ideas and became stale. And a lot of new stuff that took it's place, pales in comparison. There is still good stuff, it's just not as common to find anymore. There's probably plenty more political channels than ever before...so there's that. <.<

@SleepingSilence

Yeh, to me this totally sounds like nostalgia. Actually, if anything, I think youtube now is edgier than it used to be. It is true that hollywood comedy isn't impressive, but i think that's more a lack of talented directors like used to exist way way back, and it's exchanged for more talent in other fields. And I really don't think political correctness has anything to do with it. If anything, political correctness just produces more material to be subversive about.