Hidden 4 yrs ago 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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Something I have personally wondered about a lot when contemplating how to write for Bloodborne, language-wise: what expletives do you imagine they would use in that universe? I've been reading through the various characters' dialogue from the game, and very few expressions are ever used that could count as such, the closest probably being "Dear gods...", and the negative, angry adjective "bloody" (as in, "bloody wench"). They don't have (or at least refer to) a "Hell" the way we do, and you don't ever hear them - no matter how uncultured - being vulgar; even Arianna, a professed prostitute, and the notoriously antagonistic skeptical man, seems pretty reluctant to be too direct.
I'd imagine that their expletives would revolve around the gods, blood and beasts. We could naturally completely circumvent this by simply not writing IC expletives explicitly, by paraphrasing it as "muttered a stream of expletives" and such, but I'm curious if you have any ideas.
Hidden 4 yrs ago 4 yrs ago Post by Ashgan
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Okay, I'll bite.

So the first thing about a lot of explicit language, as proven by your examples, is that they often refer to religious mythology. Damn(ation), Hell, invoking Christ etc. I reckon this came about because, by referring to one of the most sacrosanct pillars of their culture, a person can make a point of how grave a factoid or situation is, or how strong their feelings are.
Here's the catch though: We don't know a whole lot about Bloodborne's religion, in spite of how central the church really is. Like yeah we know that they're all about blood healing, and presumably they consider Great Ones to be gods of some sort, but other than that? We can only make the vaguest guesses what a typical sermon would look like, and have no idea whether or not Laurence or someone ever wrote a manifesto, a bible as it were, or what kind of teachings the church imparts upon its flock. From the knowledge we have they seem more like a business than a church, if you ask me (exchanging blood healing for either monetary compensation, or service time). This makes it hard to pin down just how "spiritual" the healing church even is, and thusly also makes it difficult to imagine what sort of mentality and ideas it puts into its followers - which, to come round again, makes it challenging to come up with suitable expletives referencing all of these unknowns. So your guess of gods, blood and beasts is fairly accurate. Given the great problem that beasts pose, I reckon they'd be an excellent object to invoke in order to express disfavor.
Moreover, I think disease at large is a thing that Yharnamites are very cognisant about. After all, it's a city of sick people who came for treatment. An epidemic ravaged an entire district so badly it had to burned down (in recent memory!). The plague of beasts is a constant. Disease is an ever-present companion of the citizens, and is unlikely to be seen as pleasant. Calling someone sick, or saying a thing makes you sick, or calling a problem or behavior a disease or naming someone a blight - I think all of these are fairly believable ways in which a Yharnamite might swear.

In spite of being comprised of to a large extent of outsiders, it seems Yharnamites are quite xenophobic from what snippets of dialogue I can pick up. Thusly, I don't think it's far-fetched to imagine that they might be prone to invoking bigoted, xenophobic slurs to insult people, be they ethnical or cultural in nature. It's human nature, unfortunately, to judge others to be greedy or lazy or plain evil, simply because they share superficial traits with some prominent examples of said behavior. In a city of miserable exiles and outcasts, it seems very realistic to me to imagine that all of these people brought their grudges and prejudices with them, and let them simmer and stew in this crucible of human hatred. That said, the population *had* a bit of a reset after the events of the game, so maybe it's not quite as bad.

Lastly, I think some of the less culturally specific expletives always work regardless of context - the ones that refer to the lowest common denominator. Those referencing sexuality or excrement, things that are universal about humanity. Small variations occur depending on a culture's specifics, such as its tolerance towards deviancy (homosexuality and otherwise) or its degree of sexual freedom (for example the point at which one might be able to call a woman a whore - in some cultures, showing too much leg might be enough, in others it's adultery, etc). We don't have a whole lot of info on Yharnam's specific tolerances here, although if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say the city is relatively conservative (since, for starters, we're looking at repressed Victorian England as a base model). Also, and this is specific to the game, I think the purity of women is something that is very important to females in particular. Both Arianna and Adella consider their blood or themselves to be lowly, the old man is quite clearly not impressed by Arianna and her profession, and there is an entire can of worms that can be opened up on the subject of pregnancy, menstrual blood and so on, and their importance to Yharnam and its people. I have no doubt in my mind that a virgin is valued more highly than a woman who isn't, so I also have no doubt that a particularly promiscuous woman would be seen with disdain - and implying that a woman was one such, be a grave insult. And, as is often the case in society, I also doubt that this extends to men in any comparable fashion.

Sudden stop but ay, here's some food for thought lol

Edit: Actually, does the universe of Bloodborne - or, at least, Yharnam - recognize the institution of marriage? I'm honestly too lazy to look up the text surrounding Viola and Gascoigne because I feel there is probably an answer there somewhere, but I don't remember reading the word wife, husband or marriage anywhere in the game. Also interesting to ponder.
Hidden 4 yrs ago 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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Marriage is definitely a thing, though you are right that there isn't actually any definite evidence that Gascoigne and Viola, or any commoners for that matter, actually engage in marriage.
The inhuman beings known as the Great Ones imbued this Ring of Betrothal with some special meaning.

In the age of the Great Ones, wedlock was a blood contract, only permitted to those slated to bear a special child.
Ring of Betrothal

This suggests that marriage is considered even more sacred in Bloodborne than it is on Earth; something, at least at one time, only allowed for a select few. Given that the ring specifies "in the age of the Great Ones" and that you can use the ring to propose to Queen Annalise, however, it seems likely that marriage has become a more widespread practice since those days. (The bit about Queen Annalise would, ironically, not be evidence on its own, given that she has her Hunters collect "blood dregs" (cough) so that she can bear a "Child of Blood" to succeed her, which certainly sounds like she is a person "slated to bear a special child".)
Hidden 4 yrs ago 4 yrs ago Post by Ashgan
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Ahh right. I forgot about that ring. That's... very interesting and also really creepy. So the original meaning was probably to "marry" a suitable woman to a great one, a tradition that likely hearkens back all the way to the Pthumerians (recalling that Queen Yharnam looks like she's wearing a wedding dress, for instance). I'm not sure we can conclude that the practice has become more pedestrian since then, since offering the ring to Annalise really doesn't say much. The player is special, she is special, and we can't say for sure whether or not this act of betrothal would even be officially sanctioned if it happend during less tumultuous times. Also, I imagine you can give her the ring even if your character is a woman also, which raises all kinds of questions. (And yes, the uh... blood dregs sure have an interesting icon. Honestly that's an entire subject of its own, what they are, what a child of blood is etc)

Also, to me the description has a strong sound of eugenics. Even if we assume that marriage has become less esoteric nowadays, and permits unions between man and woman (as opposed to human and great one), it still sounds like some institution of power would get to decide who is paired with whom - to guarantee that special child bloodline. Might have, for instance, been an interesting angle for blood saints, somehow handpicking individuals with desireable traits and breeding them to create ideal vessels for the old blood.

That's kinda messed up and I like it. Given that Adelicia's parents are left entirely undescribed, it's an option. Hmmm...
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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I had the thought that the ring might actually be for "marriage" between a woman and a Great One after writing the post, too, which would explain why only one ring is necessary. That might even be why Arianna and fake Iosefka both fail to bear children for the Great One impregnating them (most likely Oedon); because the children were conceived "out of wedlock" (arguably Arianna did complete her pregnancy, though I'd still argue that the child was a failure since it, even after its birth, apparently remained directly linked to her lifeforce).

About Annalise (Annalise, Arianna, Amelia, Adella, Adeline... Bloodborne really likes its feminine names starting with "A"), it still seems significant to me that the player can use the ring to propose to her (regardless of the player character's sex), regardless of how special the player is, simply because they know that it is a thing. Whatever the player was when encountering Annalise they were originally a relatively mundane foreigner, so the only way they would know about the concept of marriage (barring magical knowledge gained from the ether upon picking up the item) to propose to her would be if it was something most people know about. Of course, knowing about something and being allowed to do it is two very different things...
The angle about eugenics does sound very interesting, though.

Extra: Digging some more, I discovered the existence of "official" Bloodborne comics that, as the only IC source, has a woman - a commoner, no less - referencing her "husband", strongly suggesting that they were married. I can't find any reliable source that these comics are official official to the extent that they would be a suitable basis of lore speculation, but it's something.
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Ashgan
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Interesting interpretation; that it was the lack of betrothal that led to their failed children. Personally, I feel like it boils down to the (for some reason) immutable law that "every Great One loses its child", and so whether or not the woman is somehow bonded to the Great One probably has no impact. But it is fun to think about nonetheless.

Also, you're absolutely right about the naming scheme. Furthermore, as you may or may not have noticed, both of the blood saints start with "Adel" (Adella and Adeline). Adel is German for nobility; whether or not this has any bearing, I don't know, but I kept the trend up by naming my saint Adelicia; felt like it kept the spirit of the creator alive, even if his intent is unknown to me.

You make a good point with the player knowing that marriage is a thing, regardless of their and Annalise's specifics, but that might still lead to a clash of cultures so to speak. It's quite possible that marriage as we know it exists in myriad places in BB's world, but has different meanings in different places. For all we know, mundane marriages may exist all over the place, while still being a somewhat esoteric and occult practice in Yharnam, and the player simply doesn't know any better. Or chooses to defy expectations on purpose. Maybe it's an act of willfulness to propose to a queen. Or maybe it's a symbolic act meant to cement your submission to her, more a bond of servitude than romance. I dunno. :P (And while on the subject, I feel it's a shame we won't get to know more about her; I find Annalise to be a very interesting character, and by extension the whole Vileblood thing. After a Blood Saint, one of their ilk would probably have been my choice of character. Maybe I'll write one sometime down the line. I have some ideas already.)

Nice find on the comic; I hadn't read any of them, I admit. Not sure what to make of that though. Since Miyazaki wasn't the writer, we can't be sure that the writer wasn't just making assumptions about how marriage works without consulting the original creator. It's also possible that it was simply an approximate translation (the comic is Jap in origin, or?). And of course it's really up to anyone whether or not they want to consider it canon material in the first place.

...Man we went on a huge tangent about marriage huh?
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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Hm. Interesting. I hadn't actually even noticed that about the Blood Saints (Adel, incidentally, also means "nobility" in Danish). And yeah, a tangent indeed. It's good, though; the best way to develop theories like this is to have them challenged, and marriage is undeniably a pretty impactful part of culture. I guess I need to come up with a verdict on how it's included in the RP, though. Hmm...
I'm going to say that marriage is probably a thing reserved for ritual purposes in the country Yharnam is located in, most notably for women (specifically blood saints, maybe?) being "married" to the gods.

As for Queen Annalise and the Vilebloods, they fascinate me to no end as well, particularly since - despite the best efforts of the game to depict them as ugly, unnatural, bloodthirsty and evil - I never really subscribed to the idea that the Vilebloods were the villains. If anything I'd say they were victims. I mean, the Vilebloods were nobles, and Annalise was queen, no doubt of more than just Cainhurst. The way I see it, Yharnam and the lands that now belong to it, were once Annalise's kingdom (queendom?) and that of her family, at least since the time of Queen Yharnam. Then the Healing Church rolled in and decided that they were the new government, and suddenly (and conveniently) every single person that might have contested their rule is a "Vileblood" that need to be executed. Annalise might have gone a bit off the deep end in having her servants hunt for blood dregs, but really, I'm amazed she's as sane as she is with what she's gone through. How many of those dead nobles were her family? How long has she been trapped there, stuck with her mask?
Eh. But yeah, it's probably no surprise nor a secret that the RP will almost certainly take a closer look at both Annalise and the Vilebloods.
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Ashgan
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All right, let's go with that. If/when that has any bearing on my character, just let me know :3

I'm also convinced that the tale isn't as simple as the church wants to spin it, and your take makes a lot of sense. That said, I'd stay skeptical towards either faction; depraved nobility getting up to weird stuff is not a rarity even in the real world, much less one as dark and nihilistic as Bloodborne's. While we don't have any proof that the Vilebloods were up to anything terribly nefarious, we do know that they have bizarre gargoyle monsters at their command and that Annalise is well and truly immortal for reasons beyond our ken. I'm going to assume that she is either not human or that she did something pretty awful to become immortal. I also wonder about her mask; what does it hide? Who put it on her? Is she unwilling to take it off, or unable? I forget if she comments on it, but not that much I think.
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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Visitor… Moon-scented hunter… I am Annalise, Queen of Castle Cainhurst. Ruler of the Vilebloods, and sworn enemy of the church. Yet, our people are murdered, and we are prisoner to this wretched mask. What is it thou’rt in search of?
Queen Annalise

She does comment on the mask (very briefly), but I'd say that even that one sentence is enough to conclude that someone put the mask on her against her will, and that she's incapable of removing it. As for what it hides, there is actually official (actually official official) concept art for the game that portrays her without her mask, as well as a couple of in-game paintings that could reasonably be of her.
I have my own theories on her immortality and the Vilebloods, obviously, though maybe that's better left to be touched on IC since I don't think there's anything that would change how I want to depict them at this point. You are definitely right, though: it would be naive to think the Vilebloods were/are entirely innocent, even before the Healing Church branded them as abominations for extermination. I might question why they are different, though.
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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So... who is next to post in the clinic-scene?
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by King Cosmos
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@Habibi359 said he was going to wait for me and Th3King0fChaos to post before going again, but I think it's only Marcus and Joseph in the clinic scene; there aren't any other false Palebloods in the character list.

It should be Marcus's turn next.
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Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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Th3King0fChaos' character is a Paleblood Hunter, just not a false one, and has been turned along with the others; his character, Ishin, would be there too.

I just want to be sure that there is an actual plan of action so that we don't sit around waiting for each other while everyone thinks someone else is going first.
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Bartimaeus
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I'm sorry I haven't posted yet. I was working on it, but, family stuff has come up and I'm feeling pretty down right now.
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Habibi359
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Think I'll post this evening to keep the plot moving at clinic.
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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It's quite all right, Bartimaeus; as long as we know what's going on, you don't drop off the face of the Earth entirely and the delay isn't outrageously long. But if you feel like you aren't going to be posting in, let's say, the next week, maybe you could just briefly summarize what Raine is going to say and do here or in a PM, and I will just incorporate it in my post to spare you the effort.

I think the post was fine, Habibi; seems natural for Marcus to reply when someone calls out and asks a question. Ishin can wake up whenever he's ready.
Hidden 4 yrs ago 4 yrs ago Post by Habibi359
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How's everyone's Christmas and new year? I was worried that I couldn't make a post in a week but I got access to a computer so if needed, can write something later this, after Christmas.

As a side note, I'm trying out the Bloodborne the card game.
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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Eh, it's actually pretty all right for me. Decent amount of free time (though occasionally earmarked for certain things) and more-or-less continuous access to my PC.

Now, regardless of whether you celebrate it on the 24th or 25th I'll just say it now: merry Christmas!
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Ashgan
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Aye, merry Christmas, folks. Just don't forget to fear the old blood in between your bouts of merriment.
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Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Dark Jack
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Update? @Ashgan @Bartimaeus @Habibi359 @Th3King0fChaos @King Cosmos?

I mostly just want to confirm that you're all still with us and how the next posts in line are coming along. I don't expect them to be dropping just now, of course - we are in the busy holiday season now, after all - and I don't want you to guilt you or have you explain yourselves; I just want to hear from you, if for no other reason then just to remind you that the RP is here.

I figure it's Ashgan next in Adelicia's scene, since I kind of posted for Bartimaeus. If you don't feel like there's anything worth posting yet, I can post again and skip to the elevator actually reaching the bottom.

Who is next in the clinic? Not Habibi, obviously. @Th3King0fChaos? @King Cosmos? Or do the characters need a little push from the GM?
Hidden 4 yrs ago Post by Ashgan
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Yo. I actually thought I'd give Bart a chance to make a post since it's been a bit since his last, but if you want me to go ahead I can do so, no problem. Gonna try and squeeze one in before the year's over in that case.
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