Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Dedonus
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Continuing with my previous point. Look towards Umbraxis, the current most powerful Villain. Obviously scary and intimidating, but what sum total did he actually do to hurt our heroes? Umbraxis showed up, got his cosmic buttocks squarely kicked, returned to space where he is currently being shot with rays of light and put through an existential crisis.

Where in that does fear take hold? He's the most powerful opponent yet, and he's already been defeated and is stood still in a cosmic standoff.

It's like Galactus compared to Ozymandias.

Galactus shows up, looks really spooky for a bit, then concurrently fucks off after some artifact shows up to prove to be dangerous.

Ozymandias won 35 minutes before you even arrived.

A villain compared to a real villain.

You have to have some sort of impact in the world that you're in, otherwise you're just another common thug who roughs people up in the street. Maybe a little more fancy than common thugs, but still just the same.

NPC deaths hold no real ground, since they're just NPCs. Unless you have time to make some formative emotional connection between them and the player, nobody is going to miss them.

See my point?


That is a flawed comparison. Umbraxis was (at least from my understanding of the story arc) never on Earth. He created a avatar-like projection that was purely investigating the planet. It's not showing Umbraxis' full strength.

Let's look at another example that fits into your "model", namely what Alien Invasions always look like in Hollywood and what an Alien Invasion should look like if it really happened. In movies, they always come onto the surface and engage with humanity in warfare. In addition, they usually have a weakness that can be exploited (computer virus, water, even the microbial organism of Earth). What should happen is that, due to their technological advantage, they should be able to wipe us all out from space and destroy us without us even raising a missle or gun against them. But how much fun would that be?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Fallenreaper
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<Snipped quote by FacePunch>

To be fair with the Cowl, everyone who has tried to track him down didn't 'fail' just something else happened to them. Out of the three people who specifically called out the Cowl, Ares got beat by Athena before he got the chance, Equilibrium was captured by STRIKE, and Lyger's now embroiled in Pax Metahumana. The only one who still has a beef with him is the Cancer, and we haven't been focusing on a gang war because The Cowl has been primarily focused on keeping his operations in the dark.

It's not like it's going to be easy, but The Cowl's one big success is his smuggling job so far. I'm hoping his open bounty on Jack Grey's head will cause some commotion, but one can only wait and see.

<Snipped quote by Fallenreaper>

Which again, is just great, but I'm starting to see that's a pattern with both existing and new villains. Even on the character page, I count about 6 true-blue villains and 13 heroes. The walking the line characters may occasionally get wrapped up in both, but it leaves those 13 heroes with a lot of people focusing on one or two stories, which is fine. Of course, this doesn't count the unlabeled villains, characters without a CS like Nightmare, Good Doctor, and Forsaken, and Jaqueline, but I'd certainly like to see more public villains with a CS pop up in case we ever want to make a sort of 'Injustice League'. I'm talking about world conquerors, masterminds, people who got henchmen and assassins at their fingertips. Hell, I got some ideas for more villains, and I'm always willing to contribute the foils for my own lore.

However, it's not really a concern, just an observation. I'm not exactly fretting because we're going to run out of ideas, but hey, someone else we can pool into the villain side for the heroes to duke it out with later isn't such a bad thought.


I won't argue that. Currently the group she's with will keep her in the hero margin as Gabe and Justine are really good influences, despite their flaws and unreasonable ability to get Rach to care for them later.

Jacqueline does have a character sheet actually, the name stated is actually a link. I've posted her up in the OoC a long time ago for NMS to approve though she is more stay in the shadows type villain than anything.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Raptorman
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@LeeRoy Umbraxis killed hundreds of people and two city level heroes before he was 'defeated.' That would matter in-universe, even if they were NPCs.

Nightmare has successfully defeated multiple player-controlled heroes and continues to allude capture, murdering dozens as he goes.


Elaboration. Nightmare has so far faced off against. STRIKE Forces(when Anderson was not an NPC), Archangel, The Iron Knight, and Icon. None of which have been a defeat for him as his band has only grown larger and bolder over time. It's a build up. Plus he's killed a hell of a lot. lol
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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@Raptorman I haven't actually read through every character sheet, I don't actually know what Mercy's powers are. Though I did know she was a villain.

@Dedonus
The simplified statement is that without motivation other than spooking a few NPCs who don't have any emotional yield, most people are going to be averse to being a villain. Because most people don't UNDERSTAND that killing isn't the only motivation.

Killing is a means to an end for a good villain, it isn't their end goal.

@NeutralNexus
I'm not saying it should be a contest, because heroes always win. Simply because that's how heroes work, they rally people to their cause. They work together and eventually they overcome the obstacle.

I'm just saying that a good villain always needs something up their sleeve, and unfortunately in this medium it's to hurt them. To make them useless or to make them dead.

I could list off other ways to hurt them, but it's 12 am and I'm not exactly in the right mindset to hunt down ways to hurt characters.
Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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@FacePunch Again, I see your point. It matters IN THE UNIVERSE.

The problem is, just because the players MAKE the universe, doesn't mean that events in the universe directly affect them without some way of directly causing them to feel distress.

Let me draw from a roleplay of my own back in my chatroom days.

I played a Hero named Captain Explosion.

Captain Explosion was the greatest hero of the chatroom, until he met The Golden God.

The Golden God was the source of his powers, canonically, and the two of them saw eachother as equals. This was a horrible mistake.

The Golden God was far greater than Captain Explosion.

When the two duked it out, Captain explosion was crushed beneath a giant golden idol of a lion that was formed out of magical fire.

This idol of fire burnt away half of his face, tore off his left arm, left him horribly burnt on his entire left side, and popped his left eye. It also caused severe brain damage to him, causing him to overproduce stress hormones and adrenaline. This turned him into the raging beast that became known as The Splatterer.

The Splatterer used all of his explosive powers to kill people because he had been driven insane by his inability to ever calm down, and his inability to ever sleep. Nor could the wounds on the left half of his body heal.

This made him crazy, it made him violent, and it broke the once great hero.

It didn't kill him, but it killed who he was.

It had impact because it hurt him personally, it also made for better story telling. You don't have to kill them, but you do have to hurt them.

Note: I did not play both Captain Explosion and Golden God. Golden God was the GM character.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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This isn't me trying to start an argument, by the way, it's just my point of view on how a good villain/hero dynamic is played.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Dedonus
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There is definitely a difference between guaranteeing that at least heroes will be dead and placing heroes in interesting situations. Just my 2 cents.
Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by NeutralNexus
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@LeeRoy Alright, I think I see where you're coming from, and I honestly do agree with your opinion. I understand that in order to make a story more dramatic there does have to be some sort of stakes, a give and take. If the villain isn't threatening something, then it's not doing its job. Things need to be threatened and damage needs to be done, there is no motivation for a hero if the villain isn't going to try and either hurt the hero themselves or the people close to them. That's fine, I do agree with that. And for the record, I have caused damage with my villains, the NPCs killed did mean something to those characters. Umbraxis killed cops, fueling the rage of both Thunderbolt and Boom, and The Shroud Syndicate killed Lyger's best fried(unintentionally, but that's still a driving point). It may not be what you had in mind, but that's still hurting them.

However, I'm simply pointing out this is a collaborative effort, and I'm not looking to end anyone else's fun because I need to make my character more intimidating. Sure, NPCs only matter in universe, but that's still important motivation for the heroes. Even your recommended villain Ozymandias(who I would agree is more interesting than Galactus) had a grand scheme that killed a bunch of supporting characters nobody cared about instead of the actual characters, with the Comedian being the obvious exception(Rorschach was killed by Dr. Manhattan and was not part of Ozymandias' plan). It is not the act that causes the rise, it is the reactions from the other characters that brings the weight, NPC or otherwise. This isn't a single person's story, everyone has something important they want their character to do, and I respect the interest of a person to try and keep them in mind when I want to attack or permanently injure their character. Sure, throwing someone like Eva against someone like Nightmare alone will more than likely result in Eva's death, but it should at least be conversed between the two players to make that event meaningful.

Impact is very as important as you said, and if I were writing the story on my own, many existing characters would die. But I'm not writing it alone this is a collaboration, and I'd rather see everyone's characters serve their purpose rather than become fodder because I need them to. If I want to hurt someone's character, I'll talk to them about it. I'm not looking to upset the players, just the balance in game. A dramatic act like killing or hurting another player's character only works if everyone's on board, otherwise what is the point of collaboration? Judge my characters as you wish, but I do think I've made efforts to cause dramatic tension among the game and not its players. Saying things like 'I guarantee the death of three heroes' implies taking the story in your own direction, not collaborating with someone to see if their character's death could fuel a good plot point in the future.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea of hero/villain dynamic at all, you're absolutely right. I just want to do it respectfully, and we admittedly have differing views on what hurts a PC.

And @Dedonus You were right with Umbraxis not using his full power, his avatar form was what touched down on Earth.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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@Dedonus This is true, you are not wrong.
Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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@NeutralNexus

My dude.

Obviously they would be discussed, I'm not a heartless monster. Just your average ordinary monster.


I never said it would ruin anyone's fun.

Edit: Though I did realized the flaw in my own point once I started thinking about it. I'm kinda tired, and my own point kinda fucked itself. Though you get the gist of it, so I don't have to go into explaining it.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by NeutralNexus
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@LeeRoy Fair enough, just elaborating on my position, I didn't mean for it to come out as an attack. I apologize if it sounded that way.

We're cool either way, I'm looking forward to seeing where things go from here.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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@NeutralNexus
I'll go into character for this response.

When the chance arises, I'm going to punch Umbraxis' cosmic pucker so hard that it becomes his kisser. Just to teach him a lesson for daring to put his grubby foot on humanity's doorstep.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Dedonus
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@LeeRoy snip


Couldn't have said it better.

@LeeRoy

I think we all can agree that the villains should have some "teeth", so to speak. I just think that the "will deliver the deaths of at least three heroes" just rubbed people the wrong way (including myself).
Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by LeeRoy
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@Dedonus
Don't see how, considering I expressly stated that it wouldn't be nonconsensual. But I get it.

I also get that I should keep in character to the in character tab. Because if it's not clarified it starts an hour long staring contest between 12 people and my most recent post, and a several long hour standoff on a topic that everyone agrees on.

This might sounds much less polite than I intend it to, because I'm tired.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Dedonus
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@LeeRoy
I think we can all agree about making villains potential threats. However, I am just saying that your original comment did rub me the wrong way, although I cannot speak for others here.

I mean if you want a Villain, that's MY personal field of expertise. If you really want a villain, you can just ask and I will deliver the deaths of at least three heroes.


This sounds more like Dark Sidious killing the three Jedi Masters (I only know Kit Fisto because my brother liked him) than Darth Maul killing Qui-Gon or Darth Vader killing Obi-Wan. Just saying how it sounded to me.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Athinar
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Well in my opinion, I think that personal stakes in something are necessary for a hero to get invested, but not for them to get involved. If the villains present enough of a threat to order and the wellbeing of others, then heroes will step up. I don't know if this has already been said, but, villains don't have to threaten the heroes directly to be interesting, in my opinion. It adds risk, yes, but for me, some of the best villains were the ones that galvanized the heroes into action.
Hidden 8 yrs ago 8 yrs ago Post by KaiserElectric
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Finished and submitted for your approval, just before I turn in for the night. I'll address any comments, complaints, and hate mail tomorrow. ^_^

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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by VATROU
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@KaiserElectric I totally read this line "she absolutely loves meeting and befriending new people" as. she absolutely loves meeting and beheading new people.

I'm a terrible person.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Dedonus
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@KaiserElectric I totally read this line "she absolutely loves meeting and befriending new people" as. she absolutely loves meeting and beheading new people.

I'm a terrible person.


Yes. Yes you are.

At least you have made it to the first step: admitting you have a problem.
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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Dedonus
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Finished and submitted for your approval, just before I turn in for the night. I'll address any comments, complaints, and hate mail tomorrow. ^_^



I like the premise of the character. I am going to wait for NMS to chime in about the telepathy, although I am honestly fine with it from what I read. However, if he doesn't come online by tonight, I will probably accept it anyways.

The only thing I suggest changing is the speech color. In the OP, at the "Character Speech" section of the Character Sheet, there is a link to what all the colors look like in a post (although the colors that you can select from the "color button" in the post ui are not up there. Didn't realize there were more colors). I am just saying this because the purple you picked is a little hard on the eyes to read.
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