[OOC] [Multiverse Spaceship RP] Stargate: Paradigm

[Flamelord]

Also the Cylon hacking thing hobbling their computer processing power which limits how far out they can calculate a jump anyway, and how fast they can do it

[Anomaly758]

@Assallya What implies that Star Wars ships lack superluminal capabilities? If they were all dependent on hyperspace routes for FTL travel, then how would one navigate uncharted space when ships regularly voyage into the Unknown Regions for one purpose or another? Unless if either I'm reading something wrong or you mean something else.

[Assallya]

There's no implications at all. Hyperspace Beacons, Runs, (Like the infamous Kessel Run) are all well defined. Sure, the vessels can move at supraluminal speeds but they do so blind and could slam into stars and black holes and who knows what else.

Despite their likely being millions of habitable worlds across the galaxy only a small percentage have been discovered and mapped out. Hyperspace travel is done mainly via Hyperspace Lanes, well traveled and mapped routes that are deemed safe and, usually, are lined with beacons.

These lanes, the known worlds, and the lesser routes were mapped out via sublight probes and insane explorers making small micro-jumps. This is why the Empire plots all known locations along an escaping vessel's trajectory. Smugglers collect and trade secret hyperspace routes, using them to bypass imperial blockades. Rebel Bases could be right next to a major colony or within the deep core but completely undetectable if nobody knows the secret route to get to the planet. It also makes for "choke points" where fleets can defend various systems since, in order to get to a certain Solar System there are only so many ways to get there.

In the Revenge of the Sith, the Separatist Fleet manages to bypass the entire Republic Fleet and kidnap Senator Palpatine before anyone has a chance to react because the Separatists discovered records of a lost Hyperspace route that served as a back door into the Coruscant System.

I liken the system to the old Naval Concept of "Reuters". Before the invention of the sextant sailors couldn't reliably place themselves on a map. Thus Reuters were log-books that included every move a ship made on a journey. That way if one left at the same time of year and followed the instructions there was a very likely chance they'd end up at the same place.

[Lmpkio]

In the Revenge of the Sith, the Separatist Fleet manages to bypass the entire Republic Fleet and kidnap Senator Palpatine before anyone has a chance to react because the Separatists discovered records of a lost Hyperspace route that served as a back door into the Coruscant System.

@Assallya

The mission the Endeavor partook just before being warped into this universe was based on that whole hyperspace route btw, although I added that the CIS used a portal to get over to that hyperspace route. (that was only one portal out of several but yeah)

[Anomaly758]

I'm not really good at debate-type stuff, so here you go. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Sensors/Sensor2.html

TL:DR - Of course sensor systems in Star Wars have superluminal capabilities, and my two cents on the situation is that if they didn't, why have they invested in the Outbound Project when they aren't even at the level of detecting objects in front of them at FTL speeds? The Outbound Project is their efforts to voyage to another galaxy, by the way...

[Assallya]

Nothing wrong with adding a little something to a scenario or setting though I often prefer to use Occam's Razor in most cases. The last time I played my Macross vessel I gave the ship a pair of Cyclone mechs from Robotech which is decidedly non-canon. I also added electric roller blades to the special forces team. I mean, it sounds stupid until you remember that these guys are running around on foot beneath the feet of sixty foot tall robots! The electric roller blades helped them avoid getting stomped on.

One thing I should add is that even though I'm spouting out technology, facts and the like, it has nothing to do with critique. I just find the ideas fascinating. I just love how Star Wars is so low tech! It's cowboys and samurai- in space! It also solves a lot of story problems that other franchises have. Star Trek, for example, nearly always faces a problem that could be easily solved by some sort of technology they stumbled upon a few seasons ago but everyone conveniently forgets.

I should add that almost all of science fiction actually flouts science! For example, even if a light saber was possible nobody could hold it without losing their arms. The heat that thing would produce would burn anything within a few feet, including the handle holding the lightsaber itself to ash.

[Sophrus]

@Assallya
Thats because star wars isnt science fiction at all, its space fantasy. Star trek is more scientific (ignoring the magic plot amnesia)

[NanoFreakV2]

A note to everyone, after the next one or two GM posts new ships will have the possibility to drop in. That also means as of now new applications can be made to join once more.

@Sep I've reviewed your CS and it's accepted. You can go ahead and move it to the CS section in preparation for its arrival.

[Burning Kitty]

@NanoFreakV2 does that mean current players can make a new ship or just new players?

Not really interested myself in a second ship just wanted clarification.

[NanoFreakV2]

@Burning Kitty It's mainly intended for new players to join, but if someone is interested in having a different or additional ship added to the mix, I'm open to discussions.

[Sep]

@NanoFreakV2 question will we drop in elsewhere or in the middle of the existing cluster fuck?

I feel like new ships dropping in elsewhere would be good for them.

[Assallya]

TL:DR - Of course sensor systems in Star Wars have superluminal capabilities, and my two cents on the situation is that if they didn't, why have they invested in the Outbound Project when they aren't even at the level of detecting objects in front of them at FTL speeds? The Outbound Project is their efforts to voyage to another galaxy, by the way...

@Anomaly758

Don't worry about being good at debates. Most people don't know the difference between arguing and debating. Fewer still understand the purpose of them at all. In general, the only person who "wins" a debate is one that had their opinion changed our learns something.

I present to you this concept. Presume supraliminal sensors for a moment in Star Wars ships.

1.) Why is it always a surprise when ships pop out of hyperspace?
2.) Why have established trade routes for navigation purposes? (Defense and policing I'd understand but there seems to be little of that in Star Wars)
3.) When a ship escapes to hyperspace why do they plot all possible destinations along the trajectory if they could just watch it on sensors?
4.) What would be the point if an Interdictor cruiser if you could just hyperspace all the way around a solar system and enter from a random direction instead of coming out of a hyperlane?

In general I feel that superluminal sensors would break the system.

It's always important to remember that many sites inflate their favorite franchise to obscene levels. Here are some examples:

One article I read had Tired Fighters blowing up entire neighbourhoods with each blaster bolt. That clearly isn't the case or half the main characters would be quite dead in one strafing run. (I'm looking at you Rey and Finn)

Another article purported the idea that Star Destroyers had the power of a hundred stellar masses in their engine core. This basically means a star destroyer blowing up is likely to take out the entire solar system.

If what I see onscreen is different I call bullcrap on their articles.

Also... Sisko is the worst tactical Commander in all of science fiction. More on that later! *Lol*

[Burning Kitty]

@Assallya Sisko as a person was great. His religious stuff was horrible (main reason I didn’t watch until Worf showed up). As a captain he was pretty shitty.

[Sep]

@Anomaly758 I should also point out with Homeworld space/time goes all screwey. Time on the outside of Hyperspace in Homeworld isn' the same as time on the outside.

[Anomaly758]

@Assallya

1) Care to provide examples of it being a surprise when starships enter via hyperspace? At the moment I don't recall any such event, other than in (ugh) Disney's Rogue One in which the Devastator interrupts the Rebel retreat.

1.1) Let's also consider the extensive electronic warfare deployed by both sides during the battle, though I will use the Battle of Endor as an example. These futuristic ships were limited to accurately targeting at only visual distances. To keep it short, combat ships in Star Wars make heavy use of electronic warfare to hamper their opponent's sensors, while at the same time trying to keep their own at optimal performance in that tug of war. Why else have starfighters and even capital ships fight at such close distances when they could be exchanging volleys from far away?
With that in mind, consider that there are hundreds of sources of sensor jamming coming from all of the ships, from starfighters to star cruisers, present at the battle.

2) It's faster to go down well-traveled roads than rough paths. The analogy is that these routes are known to be safe, and it's much faster to go through them than to calculate a new path entirely

3) I know of only one occasion in which they must plot all possible destinations for a fleeing ship, and that's when the Executor and her fleet were pursuing the Millennium Falcon, also known as the fastest ship in the galaxy.

4) What would be the point of having only one Interdictor Cruiser deployed? What would be the point of making multiple jumps around a solar system and therefore giving your enemy more than enough warnings about your presence? Interdictor Cruisers are expensive assets, for sure, and they weren't deployed in nearly as many numbers as other ships of similar size, but if they were to be deployed, why would such costly assets be used in such an easily avoidable way as to use only a handful in only one area? And of course, it would only make sense for each individual ship to have large coverage with their gravity wells as to stop fleets from retreating from (or entering) the battle.

4.1) It's to be noted that during critical engagements, Interdictors are deployed along the perimeter of the battle (or circumference, 'cause space) to prevent the enemy from retreating. To effectively achieve this, we come to two options, option 1 is that each Interdictor, although few in number, produce immense gravity fields, or option 2, that there are so many Interdictors that the entire area bordering the battlespace is effected by one or more cruisers.

[Anomaly758]

Oh, sorry double post. @Sep What do you mean by that? Am I reading this wrong or do you mean that the way they measure time is different or what? I am confused.

[Sep]

@Anomaly758

1) It happens quite often that SW ships detecting ships suddenly appearing out of hyperspace at the last second. In terms of on screen we just have small screen in TCW and Rebels.

2) I'm not sure what this topic is for, but SW ships don't travel through a completely other dimension like Stargate. They can still be affected by gravitational anomalies. Star wars ships can travel through hyperspace in unknown space but it is dangerous.

Example 1
Can't find an exact clip of the moment I want for clip 2, but the Ghost is trying to go to an unmapped region, ends up facing this

3) Again a common occurence, Thrawn uses this tactic often in EU and the NewCanon to plot potential destinations.

4) Interdictors in SW were typically used more for area denial. They were either placed along known hyperspace routes to force the likes of Rebel ships out of hyperspace, or used in combat situations to prevent ships from escaping From this formation we gather that the interdictors don't create that large of a field, as after one Interdictor is destroyed Ezra manages to jump away before coming back to destroy the second.

Oh, sorry double post. @Sep What do you mean by that? Am I reading this wrong or do you mean that the way they measure time is different or what? I am confused.

@Anomaly758

Sorry I actually got it wrong . In apparently every case of a hyperdrive known to the Hiigarans, Taiidani, and others, the drive is ended in a 'crude' manner by simply turning off power to the module when an estimated time has elapsed, and then the wave ends on its own I felt that time in hyperspace in Homeworld was different to that of real space. According to this, this isn't the case. It's been a while since I've researched it though.

[Anomaly758]

Yeah, they basically just go ZOOM in one direction while watching their watches, then they deactivate the zoom. FTL technology at its finest!

@Sep

1) Most likely those scenarios are found in the middle of combat, and like I said, sensors jamming. An example of superluminal sensors is the scene in which the Executor and her fleet arrive at Hoth. Vader is notified by the admiral that they've jumped in too close to the planet, giving the Rebels the opportunity to erect a powerful planetary shield, forcing the Imperials to land troops. To me, it would make sense if they were detected before they entered Hoth's sphere of influence. Consider that the purpose of their invasion was to destroy the Rebel Alliance with one decisive strike.

These ships and their crews know what they're going to do, and so they're prepared to begin operations immediately after jumping in. The Rebels on the other hand do not know that they're about to be attacked until the fleet is spotted on sensors first. If they weren't, they wouldn't have had time to activate the shield that would've saved them from a would-be surprise orbital bombardment. You just can't relay the orders fast enough to react to the sudden appearance of an entire fleet already showering green bolts of death upon your entrenched yet all-too-vulnerable base.

2) I'm not saying that Hyperspace isn't dangerous, I'm saying that navigation computers would have the capability to take said gravity fields into consideration when plotting routes, and to see them before it's too late for an emergency stop [so your ship doesn't go crashing into a star]. Sure, one can say that the hyperspace lanes have already been established, and so the galactic community relies on them for travel, but if they didn't have superluminal sensors, how could they tell if something got in the way of what would've been a safe route? It would be reckless to just blindly jump into space even if they say "This way is clear and safe", because you're still shooting forwards at FTL speeds with no eyes on the road, and yet millions of ships do it every day in the galaxy.

3) Seeing them run away is one thing, knowing where they're going is another. There are many possibilities if they're going FTL, they would at least know they went a certain direction, but what about once they're out of range? That's where you put their possible paths of travel into consideration.

4) Yeah, alright. My main point with that was to say these ships weren't used in situations where they'd be useless from you just going around them.

[Sep]

@Anomaly758 1) I think the point is Vader didn't wanna just orbitally bombard them. yes the shield could have held out but if they just bombared it no-one would have escaped. From my reasoning Vader wanted prisoners, which meant landing.

2) I didn't know that this was what this particular argument was. Both examples I wanted to find both show there are some superliminal sensors to see the world outside of hyperspace.

[Anomaly758]

The last time I checked, the intent of the Imperials was to destroy the Rebel Alliance, and they almost did. Hoth's shield was unique in the fact that it dissipated energy directly into the planet's interior, therefore negating any damage they could've done... At least that's what they say, eh?
In any case, they wanted it to be a quick, decisive strike, yet they were detected coming in, therefore foiling their plans and saving the Alliance.

By the way, if you were wondering, I'm definitely an Imperial. Fuck the Sith though, I just wanna be cool and shoot Rebel scum. ALSO IT'S A MYTH THAT STORMTROOPERS CAN'T AIM FOR SHIT triggered