Using artwork for characters/Art stealing. (Civil discussion please)

[Squad 404]

What's the general view about this? It's overwhelmingly common for people to include an image as a character description or as a supplement to one, yet I've seen a fair chunk of people that refuse to roleplay with people who do use an image, even if it's only a supplement.

Some people even go so far to call this art theft, and would report people who did to the admins in the hopes of getting them banned. I think this is honestly a bit excessive, but I'd like to hear other views.

Here's my take on it: It's fine to use an image so long as you do not edit it in any way, shape, or form and leave all signatures, watermarks, and other notes on the artwork where they are. Credit the artist if you can (So long as linking to that artists profile/gallery doesn't trigger the adsense, anyway.) and don't claim that you made or own the artwork. Stealing the entire character is a No-No. Write your own character for the image.

A lot of artists (and people) say to ask them/ask the artist first. That's fine and dandy, but what if the artist doesn't respond for months? Do you just use it anyway? What if, if/when they finally respond, they say no?

I know this is going to be a hot topic, so please be civil. I will monitor and report anyone trying to start fights.

[Dinh AaronMk]

As an artist as well as an amateur writer (seeing as how I'm in RP) I see this behavior considerably lazy. I wouldn't go as far as to call it theft, since we're not making money off of it. But if you can't even write a basic narrative description then it just tells me you don't write well at all. So if I ask for a character description I do NOT want an image you pulled off of Google or DeviantArt, because then I'm told you are just lazy. Write it down and submit it in.

But if you are someone like me who can draw, or draw competently enough to portray your character in an objectively inoffensive way then go for it.

As a NRP'er too I see a lot of people snagging maps from the internet or DeviantArt. But more often than not these artists freely say people can use it. But I still feel it's rather lazy. If we're meant to be writing in a fictional world, then why keep recycling the same map used many times before? It doesn't make sense to me. The only exception to this might be maps of our world where it's understandable.

[Mysaren]

If the artist says no, maybe just. Don't use their art? Write a description? Draw your own picture? It's their art, and using it without their permission is stealing. I totally think people should report it. There's no reason to steal someone elses art besides laziness.

[Squad 404]

@Mysaren Well, see. Let's turn it around a bit: What about roleplays? Isn't it idea stealing to make a pokemon roleplay? Skyrim/elder scrolls? Fallout? Warhammer? I see them all the time and no one bats an eye. But when someone uses a picture from the internet everyone loses their minds.

Wouldn't that be the same thing? Heck, in making roleplays based around the universe your stealing the ideas of several dozen people who contributed to the building of that world, right?

Should they be reported too?

And, again, what if the artist never responds? Or doesn't respond for months?

@Dinh AaronMk I can see where your coming from in calling it lazy. However, I must raise the argument of when an image is used as a supplement to a description, rather than the description as a whole. I must also raise the argument that not everyone is an artist, and drawing maps is rather hard.

It also comes down to, frankly, quality. Would you rather have your character defined by some choppy lineart or something like This? (Artwork (C) LordHannu)

There's also the issue of theft within the art community itself and gradual source loss. When an image is reposted ten thousand times and everyone claims it's theirs or fails to source it, who do you trust?

[Mysaren]

No, not at all. When a person makes a video game, they are expecting tons of people to play it and be inspired by it and make fan art/fan creations, etc. No one is acting like it's their video game that they made. When you steal art, who is to say that artist wanted that art to be used in any way shape or form? Video games are specifically made to be interacted with, for people to use them and play them as they please.

And if the artist never responds, move on with your life and just don't use their art.

[Squad 404]

@mysaren

Interesting...

Though what would you say if someone wrote up a near perfect text description of a character in a picture? Would you say that they are copying the artwork anyway despite not posting the picture at all?

[Mysaren]

If it's someone completely unique species\ and they ask for no one to use the species without their permission, then it's not ok.

However, have a generic enough character, then I'd say its fine. No one can claim a copyright on the /description/ of "Generic Anime Boy #948394834" If that makes sense.

[Squad 404]

That provides an interesting conflict, if I make a anthropomorphic wolf girl that's white, grey, black, and blue and has glowy/shiny blue eyes, I'll probably have about a thousand artists banging down my door saying "That's my character!"

And, even despite best efforts, I could probably never get people to understand the complex patterns or coloration without a picture.

A lot of people also say to commission the artist... Could I borrow $200-250 then? Because these artists get expensive fast.

[Mysaren]

Artists are expensive because they're wasting their time and resources just to draw you your character. Artists have to make a living.

And it's just about how good of a writer you are.

[Squad 404]

Another issue I see is weather or not people want to actually read a wall of text. Most people do not see this as an interesting activity.

The tank rests firmly upon the ground with 188 tonnes digging into the earth. Small stepladders are used by the maintenance team to ascend to the top of the eleven foot, eleven inch tank. It's rear plate of one hundred and fifty millimeter rolled homogenous armor had been carted away to the scrapyard and crews were just now wresting the twelve hundred horsepower engine from it's housing. Or, at least, what remained of it.

A firm clank made everyone in the bay jump as the one hundred twenty eight millimeter main barrel of the turret was slid forward and out of its holding and landed upon the top armor of the tank. A few shouts of apology sent the crew back to their tasks. One crew member was hunched over a requisition form and called out for a reminder on the tanks width before writing down twelve feet and two inches. He stamped the order for a replacement rear armor plate and slid it into an envelope to be sent off with the other form for replacement one hundred and eighty and one hundred millimeter armor side plates. Thankfully the two hundred millimeter front plate could be patched up rather than replaced.

There was an ominous grating sound as one of the sixty millimeter tracks was pulled free from the steel supporting cast rollers with several holes in it from machine gun fire. A few of the rollers were removed to repair some light damage from the same assault that had perforated the track. A mechanical whirring signaled the overhead crane coming about and the massive turret was rotated sideways before internal crews unbolted it. The secondary barrel for the smaller seventy five millimeter cannon was removed and hooks were put in place to hoist the large turret from the frame. The maintenance crew backed away while this was happening. Nobody wanted to risk being flattened.

The crew resumed work once the turret was moved to safety. It took a few weeks for the replacement parts to arrive, but when they did they were fitted into place. Lowering the turret into place was harrowing, since the multiple plates of two hundred millimeter and two hundred and forty armor, would ensure that anyone or anything caught beneath them would be lost. Fitting the two hundred and fifty millimeter mantlet onto the front of the turret the two barrels for the primary and secondary cannons were fitted into place. The various other nicks and damages were patched up and additional armor plates replaced as well as the new 1200 horsepower engine installed. A systems check was done and, with a sigh of relief at the pass. The monstrous tank was loaded into the transport for delivery to the battalion.

I could use this as a way to describe my tank without naming it. Or I could say that my tank was the Maus and include a picture.

[ethanjory]

You're inserting morals into something that's hugely insignificant. If you find some art online, then just use it. It's just a roleplay after all, and there are millions of pictures, arts, etc already readily available online and trying to curtail people using someone else's artwork in this manner is pointless and a waste of everyone's time. Besides, artwork should only be used as supplemental material to enhance your writing, and because of this, you might as well consider using their artwork for this as a big whoopdeedo.

[Mysaren]

You're inserting morals into something that's hugely insignificant. If you find some art online, then just use it. It's just a roleplay after all, and there are millions of pictures, arts, etc already readily available online and trying to curtail people using someone else's artwork in this manner is pointless and a waste of everyone's time. Besides, artwork should only be used as supplemental material to enhance your writing, and because of this, you might as well consider using their artwork for this as a big whoopdeedo.

@ethanjory

Stealing someone's art that they spent probably a significant amount of time on is not insignificant. Lets say you made a cake. It's the best cake ever, and you decided to put it on display because you are proud of this cake. Suddenly, people start coming up to the cake and digging their hands into it, taking huge chunks out of it and throwing it all over the wall. You just wanted to show off your cake, you didn't want a bunch of people you barely know stealing it and using it very haphazardly.

Stealing art isn't just something that's 'no big deal." Someone put time and effort into that, and having a bunch of people use it without your consent and knowledge is wrong.

@Valor

No one is asking for a huge 900 paragraph wall of text, they're just asking what your character looks like.

[ethanjory]

I hardly see the point of making a cake and showing it to a wide variety of people with only the purpose of looking at it. At the end of the day, making a cake is to usually have the intention to share it with others, unless you only want to eat it yourself, which you have the freedom to do so, just don't put it in front of other people. Obviously, that analogy is the same with artwork. People put effort into literally everything in this world, and using someone's artwork for something so minor like a RP is not even worth caring about. If it bothers you, then you're free to abstain, I just see no reason why I really should give a damn.

[Mysaren]

I hardly see the point of making a cake and showing it to a wide variety of people with only the purpose of looking at it. At the end of the day, making a cake is to usually have the intention to share it with others, unless you only want to eat it yourself, which you have the freedom to do so, just don't put it in front of other people. Obviously, that analogy is the same with artwork. People put effort into literally everything in this world, and using someone's artwork for something so minor like a RP is not even worth caring about. If it bothers you, then you're free to abstain, I just see no reason why I really should give a damn.

@ethanjory

It's still something that someone put time and effort into it, and I'd be pretty damn disappointed to see a bunch of people I don't even know using my artwork for something I didn't give them permission to. It doesn't matter if it's just an RP, it's still someone's art that they did not give you permission to use. You should give a damn because it's stealing and incredibly rude to just take someone's art and slap it into a post with no rhyme or reason or permission.

[Squad 404]

Though really, Ethan does have a point.

If an artist truly didn't want people to EVER take their pictures, simply not posting them would suffice. They could privately message people them, thus avoiding putting them in their profile. Set everything to private so that only people given specific links could view it, or Email the person the artwork. By posting them, every artist has to silently accept that someone, somewhere, will download it.

That's simply how the internet is. It's not a nice thing to think, but we would be in a utopia if it were not.

The downside is that people wouldn't be gifting them fan art of their characters that they like. But that would be a small price to pay for not having your artwork used elsewhere, right?

[Mysaren]

Though really, Ethan does have a point.

If an artist truly didn't want people to EVER take their pictures, simply not posting them would suffice. They could privately message people them, thus avoiding putting them in their profile. Set everything to private so that only people given specific links could view it, or Email the person the artwork. By posting them, every artist has to silently accept that someone, somewhere, will download it.

That's simply how the internet is. It's not a nice thing to think, but we would be in a utopia if it were not.

@Valor

but, as an artist, if I do something I'm proud of, you're damn right I'm going to post it somewhere. Why? I'm proud of it. I don't want to just PM it to a few people, I want people to see it, give criticism, whatever. I'm not asking for world peace, I'm asking for a bit of courtesy and for people to realize that it's shitty to steal peoples art.

[ethanjory]

Again, it's not stealing, since it's still the work of the artist, unless I were to lie and say I was the one who created it, which would actually be a "shitty" thing to do. You're just using it in a way to supplement your writing. Asking for permission is irrelevant, since the use of the art is not taking away anything from the artist, nor is it belittling the work that they put into it, or causing any kind of damage.

[Squad 404]

So your saying, that even properly sourced and credited, using someone's artwork is always wrong?

I remember a big argument about video game companies taking down youtube "lets plays" of their games because they said that it made less people buy their game. When, as you said, video games were meant to be experienced on an individual level and that everyone's going to have their own feelings with the game. People who inevitably won the argument raised the idea of "Free publicity"

I see many of the same arguments applying to artwork. Is it not nice to have someone else who likes your artwork spreading it around? Even if they are making their own content with it? (Characters and lets plays)

That's why this is such a grey area, in my view.

[Mysaren]

Again, it's not stealing, since it's still the work of the artist, unless I were to lie and say I was the one who created it, which would actually be a "shitty" thing to do. You're just using it in a way to supplement your writing. Asking for permission is irrelevant, since the use of the art is not taking away anything from the artist, nor is it belittling the work that they put into it, or causing any kind of damage.

@ethanjory

if you need to steal someone's art to "supplement" your writing, you're probably not a good writer.

asking for permission does help, because then the artist can be like "yes, go forth, do this thing." at this point, stealing art or using art that does not belong to you is nothing but laziness. why not just. write a description. make your own art. you don't have to use someone elses art. and taking someones art without permission and using it and, very likely not crediting it or crediting it to the wrong source because one was too lazy to go back and see who belongs to does take away from the effort they put into it, because you are taking something that someone created and using it in a way that it was not intended to be used.

the artists opinion is the only opinion that really matters, even if you don't think its stealing/takes anything way, because they created the fucking thing.

@Valor

its wrong if you didn't ask permission/they specifically said no to others using it

[ethanjory]

I pull most pictures I use while roleplaying primarily from google images, therefore who they exactly they belong to is usually unknown, since I have far more important things to worry about. Odds are, I'm using pictures taken by someone else, from someone else, and then there's a long change to the actual source. Yet again, this isn't of much consequence from me, since I'm only using the artwork/picture, not "stealing" it. When I say use it as "supplemental" material, I mean to use it only to enhance your writing, such as putting a picture of a location when you make a RP for instance. If this makes me a poor writer, then I don't really care, since I only do what I do for the enjoyment. I don't care and neither should any of you.