Using artwork for characters/Art stealing. (Civil discussion please)

[Squad 404]

Every artist does have that right. Lets go back to the cake metaphor: If you put a cake out on display, you can sit there and tell people not to take pictures when they take out cameras. Have guards posted to keep people from touching the cake. Put the cake behind rope and panes of glass to help with that.

To artwork, that translates to not putting it in a public place where it can be seen, shared, and ultimately, taken.

It's the harsh tradeoff: If you don't want people to take it, you get it, but nobody else is going to see the artwork your so proud of. But if you want others to see it, you have to accept the fact that it's going to be taken.

Either way, the artist loses. The only way to win is to not play the game.

[ethanjory]

The artist only loses if they are completely against the notion of it being shared among many people. In my opinion, they should be open to that prospect, but that's ultimately up to the individual artists themselves. Sharing of an image exposes it to a much greater user base, and what was once limited to yourself, has now ballooned into the thousands or millions. Either way, I'm going to keep doing what I do.

[Mysaren]

I pull most pictures I use while roleplaying primarily from google images, therefore who they exactly they belong to is usually unknown, since I have far more important things to worry about. Odds are, I'm using pictures taken by someone else, from someone else, and then there's a long change to the actual source. Yet again, this isn't of much consequence from me, since I'm only using the artwork/picture, not "stealing" it. When I say use it as "supplemental" material, I mean to use it only to enhance your writing, such as putting a picture of a location when you make a RP for instance. If this makes me a poor writer, then I don't really care, since I only do what I do for the enjoyment. I don't care and neither should any of you.

@ethanjory

That's laziness. Plain and simple, that's laziness, and I care because I am an artist. I put effort, and time into my art. I make art because I enjoy it. I don't care if you enjoy roleplaying, if I don't want you to use my art, plain and simple, don't use my art. I made it, and I decide what, in theory, should be done with it. I'm not saying it's going to put someone out of business if you use their art, I'm saying is a dick move, and it's a lazy move for people who can't seem to type out a few more words.

[Squad 404]

Though when I did type out a description of a Maus undergoing repairs, you said that people weren't looking for a 900 paragraph description.

Yet here you're saying that it's lazy to use artwork in place of a description or as a supplement.

Then what are we, the roleplayers, supposed to do? Nobody wants to read brick walls of text and all the artists around the web don't want their work to be used. It seems like the REAL victims of this whole debate are us, rather than the artists.

[Mysaren]

Though when I did type out a description of a Maus undergoing repairs, you said that people weren't looking for a 900 paragraph description.

Yet here your saying that it's lazy to use artwork in place of a description or as a supplement.

Then what are we, the roleplayers, supposed to do? Nobody wants to read brick walls of text and all the artists around the web don't want their work to be used. It seems like the REAL victims of this whole debate are us, rather than the artists.

@Valor

You don't have to write out a 900 paragraph description, but a few more sentences won't hurt anybody. You aren't the real victims, because your art isn't being stolen.

Also, that post you wrote wasn't really a description, but more of an RP post.

[Squad 404]

True. I won't protest that.

But again, you have measures that you can take to prevent your artwork from being stolen: Not uploading it. Choosing to upload it means, again, you silently accept that someone, somewhere, is going to take it and use it when your not looking.

[Mysaren]

True. I won't protest that.

But again, you have measures that you can take to prevent your artwork from being stolen: Not uploading it. Choosing to upload it means, again, you silently accept that someone, somewhere, is going to take it and use it when your not looking.

@Valor

Okay. That's fine, and that's a fact of life. Sure. I'm just saying that it's wrong, and people shouldn't do it. I'm not saying that I'm going to stop it from happening ever again, fine, whatever, I'm not asking for a miracle. I'm just asking for people to maybe look at their actions and realize that what they're doing is shitty. Most people who take art and use it in RP posts don't even know what they're doing is wrong.

[Squad 404]

I don't see it as wrong if you credit the people involved. I said it in the topic post, and I'll say it again. Concerning video games too, it becomes free publicity if it IS done right, and when it's done wrong, it is wrong.

I wouldn't know about 3/4'ths of the artists I do now if it were not for me seeing pictures they had done posted in youtube videos, or on websites like this one.

[Mysaren]

I don't see it as wrong if you credit the people involved. I said it in the topic post, and I'll say it again. Concerning video games too, it becomes free publicity if it IS done right, and when it's done wrong, it is wrong.

I wouldn't know about 3/4'ths of the artists I do now if it were not for me seeing pictures they had done posted in youtube videos, or on websites like this one.

@Valor

I still think permission matters, though. It's their work of art, they decide what gets done with it. And just because its free publicity doesn't really mean people want their art used without permission

[ImportantNobody]

I'm going to be in the process of drawing all my characters in exchange for ones I have pictures for from the internet. If someone specifically doesn't want me to use their picture I'd take it down for sure, but don't personally see it as a big deal if they don't mind, even if I do admit it can be a little lazy if they have the talent but just want to take a random picture from somewhere. I'm not upset at all if someone uses my drawings as long as they don't claim it as their own or make money off of it/stop me from making money off of it if I become desperate and turn to drawing for money. I can take pride in my artwork and enjoy if people are having fun with it/looking at it.

There's nothing wrong with people who want to keep it to themselves, just not my cup of tea.

[Innue]

Interesting topic.

I've always felt that art is meant to be shared, properly credited, but shared. If someone's work sync's up with another's imagination, or better, inspire a character outright, I think using an image is entirely appropriate. Practically speaking though, with work's produced for and posted on the Internet to receive feedback/be displayed, it is difficult to enforce permission mostly because you can't be certain the person posting is actually the one who created the work anyway.

I do hope if an artist would ask for the work to be removed that it would be respected and removed.

[Squad 404]

Interesting that I become active on the runescape roleplaying boards again, and then I find that Innue has responded to a thread of mine...

Regardless, If I used an image and got a message/post asking that the image I used to be removed, I would comply politely and not post it again. It is within their right to do so.

[ImportantNobody]

I think it's more about decency then rights. People can roleplay as Luke Skywalker all they want and I don't believe they can get sued as long as they don't make money off of it. However, if George Lucas said he didn't like using his character then you shouldn't out of principle.

[Innue]

Interesting that I become active on the runescape roleplaying boards again, and then I find that Innue has responded to a thread of mine...

Regardless, If I used an image and got a message/post asking that the image I used to be removed, I would comply politely and not post it again. It is within their right to do so.

@Valor

I'm glad I could make your day more interesting.

[VATROU]

I have a few commissioned characters that I paid an artist to draw, and while I wouldn't mind someone using their image as a general reference. His beard looks like this, or her hair has this style. I don't think anyone should try to pass the whole image as their own. You should at least write a general description and if you feel a certain image helps portray the character you created sure. Go ahead, just don't claim the artist's work as your own. Typically I've almost always tried to depict my characters in words, and while sometimes I need to research for a more accurate description as I find that I lack the words I seek to describe them I try to keep my use of images to a minimum. For things like outfits or specific styles that are generally hard to explain.

[Ellri]

We'll put in our few bits here:

We're no master artist, and can't really draw high-quality character pictures from scratch. Thus we tend to use others' creations. Sometimes we modify them to better fit our parameters.

When we do the former (use others' creations as is), we typically go on deviantArt simply because there are more reliable images there than most other places. When we do, we make sure to check a few things:

• is the image marked as "DO NOT USE"? If so, we skip it, no matter how good it'd fit our character idea.
• does the picture fit the parameters? (gender, age, race, species, birthmarks/scars/etc, clothes...)
• are there any logical fallacies? (pointy-heeled boots on warriors, armor that doesn't protect and/or restricts movement, abnormal physical features)
• do we like it?
• are there any comments on the image indicating that author doesn't want it used?

If the image passes all those tests, we'll use it. But we'll also add a textual description to account for what the image doesn't or can't cover.

If the latter, we will do the following:

• Is the image marked as "DO NOT USE"? If so, nogo.
• Do we like it?
• What doesn't fit our concept on it?
• Can we tweak that on our own, or is it too much work?
• When we tweak such, we do our best to make sure that the final image is radically different from the original, usually through tweaking background and/or lighting. Often, we'll change the color on clothes.
• Finally, if we're satisfied with the result, we'll add a textual description.
• Afterwards, we'll try to contact the author and see if (s)he is ok with us uploading the image on a site like deviantArt.

No matter which of the two paths we use, we always try to credit the author. Especially so if we're uploading an image we've modified to a site like DeviantArt. It might not look overmuch like the source image, but its still based on that person's hard work.

images that aren't tagged with something akin to "DO NOT USE", are generally considered to be public domain. But even so, due credit should be given. Oh, and when we use images here that are unmodified from the source image, we will link to the image on the source site, so that the author is possible to discern.

[NuttsnBolts]

What's the general view about this? It's overwhelmingly common for people to include an image as a character description or as a supplement to one, yet I've seen a fair chunk of people that refuse to roleplay with people who do use an image, even if it's only a supplement.

Some people even go so far to call this art theft, and would report people who did to the admins in the hopes of getting them banned. I think this is honestly a bit excessive, but I'd like to hear other views.

Here's my take on it: It's fine to use an image so long as you do not edit it in any way, shape, or form and leave all signatures, watermarks, and other notes on the artwork where they are. Credit the artist if you can (So long as linking to that artists profile/gallery doesn't trigger the adsense, anyway.) and don't claim that you made or own the artwork. Stealing the entire character is a No-No. Write your own character for the image.

A lot of artists (and people) say to ask them/ask the artist first. That's fine and dandy, but what if the artist doesn't respond for months? Do you just use it anyway? What if, if/when they finally respond, they say no?

I know this is going to be a hot topic, so please be civil. I will monitor and report anyone trying to start fights.

@Valor

Damn, wish I saw this topic earlier as it is an interesting thing to talk about. I used to work on a graphics forum and this topic alone would span on for many, many pages as to what can be classed as yours and what can be classed as theft.

So I will ask a few things, and some may have been answered but sorry, I'm not prepared to spend my time reading ALL the posts in detail and critiquing each comment.

Are people claiming ownership for their picture that they post?
If yes, then it is theft, but 99% of people will use Google to search for a 'reference' image. That's what's important, it's a reference image. You are creating a character based on a particular person and using an image as a source to relate to. Even if you recreate Ash Ketchum in a Pokemon RP it'll be classed as a personal interpretation and the image used shouldn't be taken seriously as it is also a personal interpretation of the original character.

Are images on the internet free to use?
Sometimes... Some images are personal creations. These are generally a NO when it comes to use, but what is a personal creation because I can take a photo of a butterfly and claim that as my own, but do I own the image itself, the butterfly, of the way it was photographed with the filters, lighting and colours? It's a very grey area and believe me, it's not a discussion that can actually end.

Is it wrong to use an image and edit it?
Yes, but the next question I have to as is "Are you making money off that edit?".
So let's say I take that image of the butterfly and crop it onto the hair of a photo of a girl. I then create a character that loves butterflies and she participates in an RP. Is that wrong as it's only used as a reference image, a personal interpretation that could be no different to be cutting a picture out of a magazine and gluing it onto a photo?
This is where I do believe people get a little too protective about things that they create online. Unless they are generating an income from that image, what grounds do they have if someone decides to use their image for another creation? Musicians do it all the time with samples.
Take a look at this: This is Sparta
Technically this uses voice and imagery from the movie 300, but it's not generating income and yet it's still up... but then we compare that to Angry Joe's Nintendo Video and you will see that he got a copyright strike for just showing his gameplay of Mario Party.

So in essence I have gone off topic, sorry lol, but in reality you are talking about Copyright and it has got to be one of the hardest things to police. That's why they have million dollar law suits over small things... examples below:

GTA5 Mob Wives Lawsuit
GTA5 Lohan Lawsuit
GTA5 Music Lawsuit
(All have been dismissed on different grounds from what I am aware of as they generally came gown to licensing and parody)

[Squad 404]

@NuttsnBolts

I never claim ownership of any images or artwork that I find on the internet. Period. Unless I 100% drew it myself, I never claim it. And since I cant draw (Want to, but I don't have the money to get the starting tools like a tablet, SAI, photoshop, etc.) I never claim any artwork.

I also don't edit pictures. A lot of the time when people have their "Art theft" trigger hit it's when someone crops out watermarks and other signatures and notes left on a picture, or swaps colors around to try and hide things. I never do this. As that is denying the artist the publicity that they would get from someone sharing that image. I also do my best to source the image, but with a website like this one that isn't always the case. If they've got a profile on a more... Raunchy website like FA, I tend to only name them, and not link them as to avoid triggering the adsense. Or, if the image has a clear signature and watermark, I leave it at that since the image is ID'ing itself.

But I also agree on the whole "Everyone else does this all the time" thing (I brought up something similar a little bit ago with all the roleplays based from video games like fallout and elder scrolls.) in that, unless the artist is hosting their work on a pay to access/pay to view website, which is clearly grounds to not save this artwork, they are, once again, accepting the fact that their image is going to end up somewhere where they don't want it.

Unless they have an account for every photo sharing/art sharing website. Which many do not.

[AlteredTundra]

An interesting topic.

I am one of those people that use images from say DA and sites like it. I don't change up the image or anything like that nor do I take ownership for it. If anything, I use it as a reference. What I mean is that I would write up a basic description for a character like "tall, slender, white hair, red eyes". If by chance that I come across an image that fits my descrption, then I'll use it as a visual reference. I don't think I'm doing anything wrong since I'm obviously not making any profit off of it. If anything, I think artists should be flattered that so many people use their images. It just means that they're doing great work. The fact that people use their images as visual references is proof of that.

[Ellri]

@Valor... If you want a good image editor that neither requires you to pay ludicrous amounts of money or to be a pirate, we suggest looking at Gimp. It doesn't have the shallowest learning curve, but its at least as powerful as photoshop.

Small addendenum to the above post of ours: When we do edit images, we try to make sure that the end result is as far from the original as possible, so that its not one of those "Look, that pesky author watermark is gone!" thingies. To give an example of what we mean, we'll link two images:
http://master-dust.deviantart.com/art/Mari-Nguyen-Kaydana-504515681
http://katherion.deviantart.com/art/Uniformed-Sith-510511895

First is the original, second is the reworked version. And of course permission was acquired before the latter was uploaded publically, as anyone editing images should do. We fully expect, and hope, that someone else finds a use for the creation we made there. Nothing would be better than to see others use it well.