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catchamber (noun): Peculiar cybernetic sapient primate from a hypersonic lavaball.

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You seem to be operating under the misguided understanding that people are somehow not servants and subjects to God in Christianity. This is more or less stated throughout with the caveat that God, specifically through the story of Jesus, wants people to be his friend as well. The liberation you are speaking to is the liberation from sin and death, having nothing to do with personal liberation beyond that aside from any they themselves find or work toward that is in accordance to the plan. So your argument of "not being worthy of respect" is nothing greater than an argument of, "Well I don't like that.", to which I will note, "I do not care." Not only because it is a non-argument, but because it is immature and childish of a perspective. People are not as awing or worthy of a place as they think themselves; overvalued and overrated.

If that's true, and God is both omnipotent and omniscient, liberating humanity from sin and death is far from meritable, because being shackled to those forces is ultimately due to God. It's basically a cosmic version of imposed Stockholm Syndrome, which is frankly pathetic for such a "wonderful" God to desire. If human beings did to one another what God has done to humanity, they would be autocratic monsters. God is not exempt from this standard, no matter how many times you wave the "unfathomable will" flag in the creator's defense.

Continuing, the concept of free will against omnipotence and omniscience is not an actual issue. A simple example will suffice here, in that no matter what it is you choose, the greater plan has already accounted for all of your choices and will react accordingly. You might think you have won yourself a battle against God in Christianity, but all you have done is provoke a reaction. To further simplify this, it is plainly evident God operates by a laissez-faire philosophy, or that which is explicitly a "hands off"; he isn't playing chess like an amateur and moving pieces all over the board just to demonstrate he can.

You obviously just internalize half of the consequences of omnipotence and omniscience with respect to supposed free will, which is awfully convenient. Unless God didn't create us, and God doesn't know everything, we have no free will.

Oh, you chose a passage did you? Interesting one you chose, given you have clearly misunderstood what it is talking about or the scenario it is presented in. Let us try not to play the game without context next time, it only degrades your attempt.

Strange that you chose Revelations of all examples to try that, as this sort of comes at the tail end of the entire judgment component (of which came in Revelation 20). No less, here is the part that people all love to forget, "... for the older things has passed away." and is literally titled "A New Heaven and a New Earth", followed later by “I am making everything new!”. So yes, that is accurate, it just requires the judgment of God on the soul and the death of all things to be remade anew. No small order there.

You said that "your personal comfort and consolation are not the end goal, concerns perhaps, but the larger picture to be framed greatly eclipses your discomfort". The verses surrounding the one I quoted agree with my claim that your statement is untrue, at least with respect to the desires of those that don't want to suffer. Obviously, it doesn't apply to those that happen to commit sins that God predetermined, given they set creation in motion while knowing everything, and that's quite petty. It's the equivalent of a human creating people in a completely controlled environment, then torturing those that act in arbitrarily set ways. There is no justification for Hell, because God is responsible for the existence of sin.

Again you parrot your demand to be respected as a human being when realistically, if we are going to play by standards of Christianity which we are debating the merit of, let us not forgot the Old Testament God who could and did literally smite people. I would have to say that by contrast the fact at all he can forgive the unforgivable, let us step aside from all the Jesus examples because those are easy to go to and people subsequently ignore them because they roll their eyes at the name, and not choose to utterly destroy men as he did in the past just for speaking ill of him or even looking upon him or his relics is a pretty large step forward in respect.

Actually, I don't demand to be respected. Rather, I respond to unwarranted demands for respect by pointing out why I find their demands to be irrational and hypocritical.

Do you know what is unworthy of respect? People who think that a force that power or grand needs to respect them. It goes to the old example of, to an ant man might well be God. He has the power to sustain them, to nurture them, to care for them, they dwell in his home and his land, but at the same time he could totally and unmercifully with little thought annihilate them. Yet the man who pays his ants no mind but avoids stepping on them, who is he? Clearly avoiding killing them is a measure respect. We could go round and round with this, but I have no intention to, I just merely enjoy a laugh at the notion people somehow deserve respect just because they are people in the context of gods and forces all powerful. To further clarify, for myself and myself alone, I view people as any other animal or any other thing, just that they have copious amounts of hubris and more intellect than wisdom.

Someone that doesn't give respect to an entity that is disrespectful is unworthy of respect? Wow, that's pretty retarded! It's not even about what types of entities are involved, but the mutual reciprocation of positive behavior.

In short, your opinion of what "deserves" and is or is not "respect" holds no water in the context of this faith or debate. Obviously to an outsider, as you well seem to be, that notion is strange but in context? That man bends knee to God is no need for thought. Neither is the fact that all problems will be solved in time, which we saw part of in Revelations, it just is not on your time. Again, I repeat that people are so obsessed with themselves that they erroneously believe it is about them. No, people are one component of the entire story, and the greater the crowd, the more negligible he individual.

You don't know what my faith is, but you're welcome to voice your opinions about respect and what's worthy of respect. I feel no compulsion to bow to an entity that didn't give people a choice to be created in a world full of suffering, and that will punish people simply for refusing to follow an arbitrary set of behaviors. You worship a slave master, and that's your problem. Me? I don't worship the creator, because I have yet to see a reason for them to want or need me to worship them.
Don't y'all just love how NeoMcCarthyism is rattling federal US politics?

"The System > Your Wants": If everyone that subscribes to a faith sacrifices their wants and desires for the sake of that faith, they effectively become slaves. If this is what God wants, they are not a liberator, but just another chip off the old block of power hungry deities, and subsequently not worthy of respect.

"You Have Free Will & God Doesn't Sacrifice People": An omnipotent and omniscient being is incompatible with the concept of free will. Therefore, everything that happens is God's will, even if humans are used to caused it.

"Your Comfort Isn't The Goal": "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." ~Revelation 21:4

"Ending State = Unfathomably Greater Than Your Opinion": If God doesn't give a shit about our opinions, they're not reciprocating the respect given to them by their creations, which makes them unworthy of respect.

"What Good Would It Do To Instantly Solve All Problems?": There wouldn't be problems anymore, obviously.
Terror attack at the Port Authority in NYC. Early reporting says the fucker did it wrong and injured himself too much to set off a suicide vest, got taken alive; two hurt, including the """"""suspect""""".

edit: not a serious injury to the bystander. Nice bomb, loser.

Yeah no that's stupid and wrong, and an immature "objection." This is a simple variation of the Epicurean Paradox issue that is consistently raised to theists as if it's some sort of "aha, gotcha!" style of riposte. However, if people who posted such shit bothered to pull their heads out of their asses for a few moments they'd realize it's already been resolved several times dozens of times across many cultures and eras.

tl;dr "tracie harris" actually gave a damn about anything but being an annoying edgelord she'd know she's raising a rather stupid non-argument. Although perhaps it wasn't wise to share rather basic information since people who say such shit need this bubble of self-righteousness to exist.

You do know I was somewhat agreeing with your perspective, right? While I'll admit that the alternative explanations I gave aren't necessarily aligned with the "omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient" triad associated with the Abrahamic gods, I'm aware that the mindset of a being capable of creating a universe can be incredibly far removed from our own. This isn't the "God is unfathomable, so you're wrong" argument, but one that can be summed up as "Maybe there's much more to this situation than we realize, so let's keep investigating existence, logic, and ethics for potential answers".
My issue with god could be perfectly summed up in this picture. I mean, it's like she took the words right out of my mouth.

While she raises a good point, there's always another option. Maybe God doesn't give a shit. Maybe God looks at us the same way we look at microbes or domesticated animals. Maybe the Big Bang lagged God's computer so hard, they have no idea that any of this shit is happening, and they're floating around shouting profanities at the infinite void while they wait for the customer support hotline to take them off hold.

Not that I'd worship God, no matter what their reasoning is. After all, why the hell would a being capable of creating the universe want or need a mere primate on a hypersonic lavaball to shower it with praises?
You're awfully stupid with nothing of worth to contribute, but God will forgive you.

Wait, so are you trying to say here that God, has forgiven everybody and will therefore save everybody despite whatever choices or decisions they make? Even if they outright reject God and want nothing to do with him? So all of humanity has no choice in the matter but to be forced to follow God and live forever no matter what they do in the here and now? Way to make freedom of choice completely irrelevant and pointless, if that were the case then everyone is free to do whatever they want at whatever price with no consequences except for what happens to them on this Earth. That is a very dangerous claim to make.

>Worship an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient creator.

>Complain about freedom of choice being removed, because the creator won't punish people for failing to follow an arbitrary set of behavioral codes most likely formed by mere human beings, despite freedom of choice being illusory due to the creator being omnipotent and omniscient.

After a few multiplayer games with @Mag Lev and @The Nexerus, plus a passing mention of interest from @Sirkaithethird, I figured I'd make a thread to bring all of the forum's Stellaris fans together. This can be a thread for discussing the game, modding, and general chitchat, as well as a place to organize multiplayer games. If you'd like to join in on that last part, just mention me in a post with some sort of schedule, and I'll edit it into this post for ease of access.

Interested Players
@Mag Lev
@The Nexerus

|α|: "People deserve the right to die."

DGenR8: "No, they don't. Whenever someone dies, it's a traumatic experience for the survivors. Therefore, everyone that's born without biological immortality should swiftly be given the necessary nanotreatments to make them incapable of aging."

NaClE: "Excuse me? I've lived for over 400 years, been through 8 interplanetary wars, and had virtually every pathogen flushed out of my system since I was vomited out of my exowomb. I'm done with this shit hole of a reality, and you're a self-righteous twat if you think you have the right to tell me that I can't log out."

ΨΦqtπ: "But what about the economic losses caused by every death? Funerals are expensive."

[hilarity and continuous bickering ensues]
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