POOHEAD189

The Elder Scrolls: Vengeance of the Deep

As the sun peeked over the city walls, Alim stirred from within his bed. It was a simple cot of linen and cushioning, but when one was enjoying a sleep it felt like a veritable cloud. He gave a stretch that caused a groan to reverberate out of his throat. Once he had his wits about him, he briefly wondered how people woke up at a decent hour with such high walls blocking the sun.

He pulled off his covers and stepped onto the ground, before laying back down along his back on the wooden floor. The bare spellsword lifted his knees up, feet and back still on the ground and he began to do his daily stretches, pulling each knee to his chest one after the other, and then twisting his body slowly. He heard his back giving a few satisfying 'cracks' as he stretched. He still had to maintain his old back injury from when he was a child, having fallen from a roof. He made sure that did not stop him from the adventuring life.

Once he felt limber, the dashing mixed breed slipped on the loose fitting pants and multiple colored sash belts of his mother's people, followed by a breton's linen shirt, covered by chainmail, similarly covered up by a fashionable adventurer's top. Along his shoulders was a handsome cloak that carried varied items and hid his sword that he strapped to his center belt. Grabbing his cloak, he flung it about so it draped across his torso in a rakishly charming fashion.

The common room down below seemed normal enough. Alim gave the Innkeeper a nod of greetings and ordered some quick breakfast. He plopped down at one of the tables and awaited his food. Alim was a bit too mellow at the moment to flirt, but the waitress who brought his food gave him an interested smile he recognized. Politely smiling back, he began eating his quick meal of ham and grapes, along with some fine well-water. Wine would be for later if he felt the mood fit, for no one knew what the day would bring, after all.

He had no idea how right he would be.

The world he stepped out of the Inn to face was one of shadows and fear. It took him a moment to have the inclination to gaze up at the cloudy sky, only for his eyes to widen in surprise and cold fear as he saw the vast ships that blotted out the sun. So taken aback was he, that he uttered. "By the nine..." aloud, despite the desanctification of Talos as a God. Alim had made friends with a monk in the north that had claimed Akatosh himself had said to worship the 'nine.' Alim was not one to betray the Dragon God.

In fact, he could use Talos and Akatosh at this moment for strength and wisdom. For he saw the Dwemer descending. Behind him, the waitress that had fluttered her lashes at him gasped, her body halfway out the door, having come out to give Alim his change. She dropped the septims, along with her mug and tray onto the porch.

"Go back inside. Bar the doors." Alim said, speaking with a honed calm. He drew his sword in one fluid motion, ever ready. He wasn't necessarily the best soldier, but he had been in far too many dangerous situations, and he was a capable warrior and duelist. He knew how to keep his cool, even when staring at a race the bastard swore was extinct, riding in magical flotillas in the sky.

"Oh, this is going to ruin my day. I can already tell." He quipped, and his instincts told him he would have a chance to live if he remained mobile rather than stationary. An ordinary citizen should stay indoors, but he trusted his sword and spells over wooden doors anyday.

It was within the streets of the Imperial City, having given the Dwemer a runaround and clashing swords with a few constructs before he ran into something interesting.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

There are a number of reasons she would be absent from duty but obviously not derelict, the most obvious being that she has at least frequent mental health appointments, appointments with command, interviews - mind you this is assuming prior regulations, which I am unsure if they still stipulate details as specific as essentially verifying she's not lying about her intent - and then less obvious, such as the mission in this case. Operations as the one nodded to here tend to remove people from serving in their role, at least temporarily, which again could be days, weeks, or months. This is also not including any presumed hormone therapy or reassignment surgery. In general it is better and less complicated to avoid these problems, among others, in the first place.

On another note I absolutely disagree it cannot somehow be both a thing people choose or in more serious cases, something that actually is theirs to own for woe and weal alike. The majority of this argument is centering on the military aspect, at least it was prior.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

She could also be a perfectly normal and functioning member of society

---

I think asking that question is missing the forest from the trees. Do we have proof that schizophrenics have a long track record of not being good soldiers? Well, no. Usually, because we don't let them in, in the first place.

Schizophrenics are volatile in their moods for good reason. Trans people are not.

Also, depression is a hell of a lot more important than gender politics. But that's just me, and the rising teen suicide rate talking. But we've already seen studies disprove that "acceptance" and going through with surgery/replacement therapy helps matters, when we determine their suicide rate statistics. And saying gender dysphoria is somehow much different from depression, is the kind of downplaying depression and making transgender some kind of special flower ideal, I was just talking about.

I am not downplaying depression. I have it. I am simply saying gender dysphoria can effect you far more when it comes to how society views you, and your own identity.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

You certainly didn't. But are you telling me, every single person whose transgender is the same? Is it not possible, that some people have genuine gender dysphoria. And the six year old wanting to be a boy or girl, may just be wanting some attention?

So yes, you CAN have both. Some can be mentally ill. Others can be doing it for attention. But let's be frank, most people don't care about the bathroom thing. When we're talking about military jobs, there's a bigger issue at hand here. And if you want to tell me something is contradictory, I want direct quotes.

@SleepingSilence

Yes you could have both in an RL context. What I mean is you can't use both to show how trans people are a problem for the bathroom/military in an argument. I want to know which you are referring to.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

The people themselves are not the issue so much as the impact on the role they have. Say I as a supervisor have five troops under me and I realistically need seven to do my mission per the regulation. We have an operational waiver saying we can operate with five to conduct our daily mission. One of my troops is transgendered and has a mandatory appointment weekly for a therapist, consultation, and ultimately a series of reassignment surgeries. Private Snuffy, my transgender troop, is a good soldier and does her job. I ensure she's recognized as female and treat her like a female, ensuring her peers do so as well. I have no issue with her or what she's doing.

What I have an issue with is Private Snuffy making me call in people who work other shifts to fill her slot when she's gone, because I have an instruction, regulation, or order to follow through with. I am already understaffed and am barely able to meet my mandated requirement. If I cannot find a replacement, say someone is on leave, is ill, or just worked - preventing them from working extended duty for certain occupations or mission roles - what do I do now? What do I do as a supervisor when the therapist makes recommendations I have to defer to and contact my command? What do I do when my command finds out I ended up with four people when I need five? What happens if that ends up in the documentation for an inspector?

Well I am glad you yourself would not judge the person. But why would she be gone? Is this because you assume she would have hormone therapy? I don't follow.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Okay there's a lot of holes in that one.

First, you already contradicted yourself on that matter. Assuming there's no real science, thus no real problem, behind "gender fluid" stuff. But the very same thing can be said for the entire gender spectrum.

"Special Privileges" are not given to all mental disorders. (Hell, even ones we do aren't often followed. I digress.) Nor does it grant front row to military and jobs that require the most fit and best among us to perform their duties.

We also don't try to make it -not- a mental disorder. We don't usually tell people that their delusions are real, or that the walls are really talking to them. Yes, it's not PC. But it is factual. Unlike the movement pretending depression doesn't even exist. Or people not knowing their head from their ass when it comes to the autistic spectrum. In these cases, we're trying to make it "self-identity" and all positive. Mixing it into homosexual lifestyles. But gays don't have a disturbingly high suicide rate. You don't have to give puberty blockers to three year old's, or lose custody of your children.

dailysignal.com/2018/02/19/parents-ju…

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4743036/…

Do what you want as an adult. I'm not judging you personally. But as a statistic. These numbers and the narrative being pushed and what's unfolding right now in our current culture. Instead of even trying to be honest. Is just disgusting...

@SleepingSilence

I did not contradict myself. I merely revealed how you (if I read your and Harbs arguments correctly) were contradictory.

1. This is a person who has a condition that makes them feel as if they do not belong in their own body. Therefore a male with gender dysphoria who has the mind and chemical make up to make them feel as if they should be in a female body, is truly female at heart, and should be allowed in the ladies bathroom.

or

2. Perfectly normal human beings are switching up their genders, and if that is the case then that is just society, and gender has now become fluid based on the fact that perfectly rational people are well...gender fluid.

You can't have both. Which do you think it is.

- Said by most Darwin Award winners. <.<'

And scientists

@SleepingSilence

I am of the belief the current proposal in the memorandum for the President of the United States is the best course of action. In my personal opinion however, I believe any who have been extensively vetted through behavioral health and psychological evaluation should retain their position and authority. They should not be punished or removed from service in a discriminatory manner, but if found mentally unfit for service should be separated from service with a medical discharge and if need be, compensated for appropriately through the Veteran's Affairs, especially to ensure they are offered resolution to their condition, if they so choose.

I do not have an issue with them serving, but they need to be as atypical to their statistics as possible, namely in the realm of suicide and depression. Speaking from experience, deaths of this nature have catastrophic consequences to a mission and operational ends. Mitigating that as much as possible is mandatory and essential, something that has already been in the system through various other means. I myself do not believe denying most transgendered persons service in the military is any more discriminatory than denying people with issues of substance abuse or domestic violence. Some people choose these things for themselves, very few, most do not. The issue is, is that those who do not make these choices cannot just suddenly revoke it or their affects; the concept behind this is very non-discriminatory, in fact.

Serving in the armed forces is an honor one is selected for and like many things in the military, not freely handed out.

@POOHEAD189

The marginal numbers are not those supporting the transgender persons, rather the approximately transgender population itself. Even if the half of the United States population agreed and supported them, the other half would be deeply unsettled by examples as the bathroom issue.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you saying 50% of America is deeply unsettled without proof is sounding about as plausible as 3 million fraudulent votes for Hillary Clinton.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

They deserve no such special treatment or privileges - see people with chronic depression or suicidal behavior. What they need is medical treatment or resolution of some sort for themselves, not special treatment at the expense of everyone else. The military is one of the places this belongs not at all, especially for those crying "but muh unit coheziun" crowd against this decision. One of the very last things the military needs is more special needs trainees or service members - it really does make achieving the mission more difficult.

The second is more or less just outlandish on its own in the context of psychology and psychiatry. When you represent roughly .6% of the adult population of the country and are not following the standards of being neuronormative, to borrow a loanword but related to one of my earlier examples, that is not normal. That is not how the system operates, especially not the military, and demanding the military play nice just so people feel included is stupid and how you end up with more bodies, be them at home or away.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

Do you have any proof that transgendered people make the military lesser quality.

Do you know of any treatment/medication a transgendered person can get to help them feel at home enough in their own body to have no problems as long as they take it? Do you know what it is like to walk into a room designated for a person you feel with all your being you should be, but physically aren't? Depression can be used as an analogy to gender dysphoria for a few things, but this is not one of them. Gender is far more prevalent in society and cultural outlook than whether you are depressed or not.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Just to point out really quick, I'm not one of those people that think, if you let transgenders use whatever bathroom they want legally based on just taking them at their word. That somehow, the transgenders will suddenly commit an endless spree of unspeakable actions with their actual disorder as a cover.

I'm someone who thinks, that perverted criminals, if given the option to get off scott-free with getting into their preferred bathroom of arousal. If all they need to do, to immediately not be punished, is to claim "i'm different I swear." Then just maybe out laws shouldn't be implemented so vaguely.

And what I just described, certainly isn't a non-issue.

But seriously, on the transgender military thing. No one currently in the military should be effected, and I don't think the law would have done so either. Not sure if the new one proposed is any different or even tangible. But ignoring the fact the military is strict and should be when accepting, is disingenuous. Which certainly feels like how that conversation was going.

@SleepingSilence

My answer to that as a history buff is...there's only one way to find out. I'm certain nothing will happen that creates permanent harm to anyone. And if it does, then the law will switch. Societies always attempt to evolve to meet new needs. I know that seems like a lax stance when you are concerned about dangerous criminals, but then something something gun rights.

The point, actually points, I am nodding to @SleepingSilence is in part addressing. In essence it is a matter of people getting added or preferential treatment at the cost of others because they are somehow "marginalized" or subject to a phobia fixture to their title or status. I gave ample argument how this advocacy makes zero sense in context, see the seemingly offensive practice of noting gender dysphoria is a mental illness and how I compared other disqualifying mental illnesses to it. It is very much a trendy, politically correct thing to do all while willingly ignoring all the others because they don't feel good in concept, @POOHEAD189.

I still would love to see someone attempt to argue those, that I admit. After all there is truly no realistic rebuttal to the fact they are, in essence, not all different for why they are disqualifying factors or how people treat some mental illnesses favorably over others because it just seems easier, rather is more politically convenient. Looking back, this all started in conversation that this move is somehow "trash" despite the recommendation being that the Department of Defense is willing to review potential candidates who meet their criteria, but reserve their right to decline them, as they do with others who might be promising avenues.

As an edit in address to the following quote;

<Snipped quote>
They deserve no such special treatment or privileges - see people with chronic depression or suicidal behavior. What they need is medical treatment or resolution of some sort for themselves, not special treatment at the expense of everyone else. The military is one of the last places this belongs, especially for those crying "but muh unit coheziun" crowd against this decision. The last thing the military needs is more special needs trainees or service members - it really does make achieving the mission more difficult.

The second is more or less just outlandish on its own in the context of psychology and psychiatry. When you represent roughly .6% of the adult population of the country and are not neuronormative, to borrow a loanword but related to one of my earlier examples, that is not normal. That is not how the system operates, especially not the military, and demanding the military play nice just so people feel included is stupid and how you end up with more bodies, be them at home or away.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

While the numbers you present certainly seem lopsided in your favor, if we're looking at this purely from an outside view, if it was only 0.6% of the population supporting the right of trans people to use whatever bathroom they wish or supporting them going into the military, there would not be such an outcry for it. I'm certain that most, if not many many people, whether you believe they are ignorant or misinformed or not, want trans people to have such rights/privileges. I do believe that people who are offended by such legislation are a minority.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

Here's the thing. You either need to

• Stick to the narrative that transgendered people are mentally ill, which means they should be allowed special privileges.
• Or they are not mentally ill, which means all genders are fluid and validated.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

I guess if you want to stretch and allow bathrooms to be strictly non-binary. If you claim to be "gender fluid", you now have more legal rights/access than your average citizen. And if you want to push someone with a mental health issue in the front lines of acceptance, label those that disagree with it as hateful, when military is strict to all health problems. It's kind of doing so, for a political agenda...

@SleepingSilence

I think the context is: If someone has gender dysphoria, they should be allowed to use the restroom they identify with.

I can see some potential problems if someone claims to be gender fluid, but that's just assuming the person is dishonest. And since there is no data that supports there have been any real issues in states that have allowed such things, then I'd say it's a nonissue.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

I don't believe anyone has claimed trans people are asking for more rights than a cisgendered citizen.