SleepingSilence

The Worst Writing Advice

Even grammar and typography, which you would think would be the most objective things to highlight in criticism have stylistic differences that professional typographers commonly debate upon depending on time period, publication, etc. You can try to be without biases in a critique, but the critique will still be mired in subjectivism.

@Inkarnate

Something I don't really disagree with.

And to address a joke made earlier.

Nah. Now, it's gotten off the rails.

The Worst Writing Advice

Do you think a critic knows better than the person who made the thing they are criticizing.

@Fabricant451

Not necessarily, which is why I always eagerly and happily expect the good authors/writers, to follow through on anything a critic might have missed. Especially if it's specifically on a writing forum. ^-^

But sometimes? Yeah, the author does need someone to step in and go "hey, maybe don't do that." If you think that's wrong, you have no idea the process most writers go through.

And truthfully, writers are often the worst at judging their own merits. For better or for worse.

You disagreed that there was an objective quality to story telling.

@Fabricant451

Uh...no. No, I didn't do that. That was the other person.

You cannot provide any example of the objective best way to tell a story.

Objectively, your post from 28 minutes ago is structured poorly.

@Fabricant451

Is this a "your an idiot" kind of ironic example of making the very same mistake within a critique? Where you meant, "I disagreed that there's subjectivity to quality? If so, that's still not correct. I conceded on a personal level, the beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Also, from the very moment that this was posted, this already had the issue of being dated. (Because I've posted so much now, that I can't honestly tell which one that you're describing. (INB4, lul them all.)

But duly noted, regardless. I did my best to make my reply's of "you're an asshole, because I thought so." a little more...substantive let's say.

The Worst Writing Advice

Yes it can. But something I think is bad might be good to someone else. That's how this works. Now please answer the question.

@Fabricant451

Subjective opinion and objective quality are two different things.

You are conflating the two by strawmanning my position.

And not to steal from Jim Sterling. But, There is no "perfect story". There are only "perfect stories". So my answer depends on what you're looking for, now doesn't it?

The Worst Writing Advice

Evaluation and critic is one thing, but to change words up just because that's what you want to see. That's just fucking rude. Just saying.

@KZOMBI3

What if...it's not for the critic's benefit. But meant to benefit the writer?

Is it really the same thing? Does context not matter at all when it comes to providing critique?

I mean, I'm hearing arguments for why you can tell someone what to change, and why they should change it.

But the mere horrifying act, (of walking the walk) and providing examples of the former things, is the one true sin?

---

So, "Your writing is slowly paced" is fine.

Even saying. "You should cut all this unneeded shit out, because it's making this one topic drag." is a-okay.

But, do it for them, merely to express how one *can* go about fixing their work? (If they so happen to agree with what you said.) Fucking rudest shit I've ever seen.

I guess?

The Worst Writing Advice

What is the objectively best story ever told or the objectively best way to tell a story?

@Fabricant451

Can writing be bad?

The Worst Writing Advice

I just calls them like I sees them. People who rewrite other people's works (without being asked to) in, say, friendly creative writing contests on the internet are people with no awareness of how constructive criticism works in the real world. I stand by my point: they are bad at critique.

@Roach

Unironically, no-one brought hurt feelings into it. People who rewrite are assholes, yes.

But we both know why this particular example of bad writing advice niggles at you so.

@Roach

Hey, look your mind reading again.

Pray tell. If no one took a person's critique personally. Why would someone like you feel the need to make ad-hom attacks exactly?

And ironically, this almost proves my point. (In that someone is flat out stating something, that has no example offered, or elaboration on why it's so bad.) But, I digress.

So, before you had to bring it up the second time. When I wanted to be nice and shrug the obvious cheap shot off. I was weighing on questioning precisely what you think critique is meant to do. When you posted right under my review, "Long review is bad. Because it's not friendly."

Well, here's the thing.

Critique isn't friendly. It's not fun to hear. No matter how lighthearted and filled with sorry's one makes it. Because people can utterly freak out regardless. Or act like you, and attack someone's method regarding their own preconceived flaws on what was said. When here's the dirtiest truth of them all, it's only meant to help and offer suggestions for improvement. Nothing more, nothing less.

No, providing every detail of not only what you liked, why you liked it, what you didn't like, why you didn't like it, what was actually wrong, and friendly suggestions to improve, is not, nor will it ever be "bad critique". And because I *do* know what I meant. And many people who appreciate it, knew it wasn't "to feed an ego".

No one is saying that you cannot suggest changes. The problem comes from literally rewriting the words. The author's authentic voice is a better fit for their own work than a stranger's.

@Roach

Nothing is stopping an author from explaining that themselves then. And better yet, taking one's rewritten words, going "Hmm. Okay, how do I take that advice, and then make it my own?"

Because, I don't believe anything is perfect. If I fuck up in writing or critique, the more specific you are, the better it is to me.

And the total reverse of you claiming "suggestions to fix sentences are always bad". Isn't useful to me at all. Because it provides me no wiggle room to grow as a critic. Something that everyone should work to improve upon.

And let's cut to the "bring me down" chase, and say I've had many PM from people I've critiqued/advised in the exact same way, and thank me for how clear I was. So, don't tell me that it can never work. Because I know it can, and does help people. Especially, those who can actually assume one's good faith.

And, cherry on top. If the author is allowed to have a voice that is unquestioned in their method, breaking any rule that suits them.

Well, why can't the critic or the reader be allowed to have their own methods of review, that may even be different from how someone else tells them "the right way to offer help"?

---

TLDR: Let's be honest. What you take offense to is up to you. But just maybe, it helps to give people the benefit of the doubt.

And no, giving someone your opinion of potential better sentences. Isn't "being an asshole". When the person is doing it with the intention to help you improve. And it's far more likely that you can't accept critique. Because good writers, will ask follow up questions to their fellow writers/critics, if their goal is to improve. If not, then even sheer dismissal, is still far better than blindly lashing out.

The Worst Writing Advice

Professional editors generally don't edit someone's prose to fit their own wants.

@Bluetommy

Okay, so professional means publishing right? Since nothing else fits the bill for that word. So I'm guess that's the story you're sticking to.

But that's not true at all when it comes to publishing. You will have editor ask you to change characters, events, erase entire lines or paragraphs. Add thousands more words here or there. (Something I do know from a friend's personal experiences.)

There's a minor note in this YouTube video here where someone goes through the processes of what happens when you go through publishing. Where seemingly unnecessary edits were offered akin to "This story takes place in this city, let's change it to this one instead."



Good video, and worth watching to anyone passing by.

Fanfiction is using someone else's creations to tell your own story, it's not at all "rewriting someone else's voice", that's absurd.

@Bluetommy

To you and to me maybe, sure. But don't think for a second that all authors think the same way. Hence why some get angry and pissed at people writing fanfiction about their works. For reasons that are basically argued as soiling their original property.

I'm going to let you in on something, when it comes to storytelling? There is no objective quality.

@Bluetommy

I fundamentally disagree. And that's just wrong. Yes, in the most general sense, the beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I suppose. But saying all writing is subjective, has and will always be used as a defense for laziness. And it only comes across as a slap in the face to those that put effort into their work to make it as polished as possible.

The author doesn't have any more obligation to listen to your opinion.

@Bluetommy

Sure. Who said they do? But it goes a long way when you don't assume every piece of criticism is personal or bad faith.

Many pieces of fiction are better because the creator didn't listen to criticism that didn't match their vision. Tvtropes has an entire page of this.

@Bluetommy

Cherrypicking. And honestly, the reverse is not only true. Frankly there's many, many more examples in T.V, movies and games in recent memory, where fan reactions/concerns have been proven entirely correct.

If you present those criticisms in an impolite way, say completely rewriting their work in your own style without their permission.

@Bluetommy

Good thing that's usually never done, eh? Since, most of that advice is solicited to begin with. Whether to whom is made to read it, or where it gets posted. (Context matters after all.)

Or to erase the already razor thin border of subtly, it's also far more likely that this "failure of permission" was a post in a writing contest where anyone with sense, would expect their writing would (and I argue should) get thoroughly evaluated and critiqued. Take critique how you want.

I'll ask you the same question, since you clearly accidentally left it out.

Why is "your sentences are complicated and vague" more helpful and acceptable to say, than "Your sentences complicated and vague, so if you don't mind, let me provide you potential solutions as to precisely what I'm talking about."

In both cases, the person giving said advice, is asking the author to change their original work. Likely to make the author's sentences more clear and concise. So assuming both people are doing that in good faith. Where one often gives no examples and provides no solutions. And the other does so. Is the first better because...they put less work into their giving their advice? Is it nicer to leave an author clueless on what the former even wanted? Simply because it there's the chance it will hurt one's feelings a little less, from the sheer lack of context for them to dwell on?

Again. All ears.

The Worst Writing Advice

Also, "Laugh off your critics" is bad advice too. To anyone who needed to hear that. :D

And speaking of funny and relevant.

"Did members of your writer's group take their valuable time to read your work with a critical eye? Well how dare they give their wrong opinion!"

The Worst Writing Advice

My own top contender for the worst writing advice is actually more about critique on the web: Any advice in which a critic takes a piece of writing and rewrites it in their own style just to feed their own ego.

@Roach

This sounds like you're playing the role of a mind reader.

There's no reason why anyone should say or imply that 'this would be better if you did it my way' when doling out specific advice on the internet.

@Roach

You know, except when people either personally ask for that advice specifically. Enter a creative writing contest, or anything that invokes competition and begs to be critiqued for such a thing specifically. Or, perhaps how literally every single writing/literary agent works, when it comes to endless revisions required to getting one's writing published. Then, it benefits the writer significantly. But sure, all other times, no reason to rewrite things whatsoever. ^-^'

(Or when you're writing a fan fiction, because hey guess what, that's rewriting/changing someone's established 'voice/cannon' and making it your own. And that's okay too.)

Never stifle an author's voice. It's just unbearably rude.

@Roach

This sentiment could easily boil down to "the author can never be wrong/all writing quality is subjective."

But all suggestions can either be taken with sheer hostility and ignored. Or they can be evaluated and worked upon. (And I can tell you the latter makes you more successful in every avenue and medium.)

Because, just perhaps, not everyone that critiques or offers personal advice is thinking "how can I feed my ego today". But does it, in order to help someone get better. (Or at the very least, get them to understand a different perspective.)

And, tell me this...

How can you critique anyone's writing choices whatsoever, when you aren't allow to seek or offer changes?

Because all critique and advice does this. With literally every example you can think of. You are looking, or expecting someone to update something.

So for example, why is "your sentences are complicated and vague" more helpful and acceptable to say, than "Your sentences complicated and vague, so if you don't mind, let me provide you potential solutions as to precisely what I'm talking about."

In both cases, the person giving said advice, is asking the author to change their original work. Likely to make the author's sentences more clear and concise. So assuming both people are doing that in good faith. Where one often gives no examples and provides no solutions. And the other does so. Is the first better because...they put less work into their giving their advice? Is it nicer to leave an author clueless on what the former even wanted? Simply because it there's the chance it will hurt one's feelings a little less, from the sheer lack of context for them to dwell on?

I'm all ears.