[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[Rilla]

How to tell Skally is upset.

He exploits your lack of ground game.

[Skallagrim]

I do enjoy slapping an arm bar on Rilla and making him tapout.

[Rilla]

My girlfriend constantly reminds me of that. :(

[Skallagrim]

My girlfriend constantly reminds me of that. :(

@Rilla

Well, never bring a boxer to an MMA fight.

[Skallagrim]

@Fallenreaper As a n00b to the arena, what can we do to make the transition from RP to competitive arena Rp easier.

[Descartes]

I just treated it as a normal RP.

Though we could always try the guantlet; in other words, 2 straight days worth of ghey seckz.

[Rilla]

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

True but in some cases isn't that one aspect that actually brings individuals to the arena in the first place? For me it was a rather big one. Not to mention a muse might not be able to work within confined themes and that's punishing someone for something a bit out of their control. At least to me. However I'm not putting this together and I could be completely wrong, I don't know or will state I know everything. It could do exactly as you want it to but it could also not.

One thing that does likely need be done is defining as the basic realism and levels. No matter what, that needs to be established. Even if you just do human level because I've seen adrenaline (guilty of it in the past myself) be the 'super' boost that allows over the top shenanigans.

I have already pointed out about some people not fully understanding some aspects do affect key things. Unless you aim on everyone battling identical arenas? Then that wouldn't an issue and my last state on it is moot.

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

True but I usually thought it was usually due to balance. Some people don't list weaknesses along with their strengths for fear of it being used against them in a match. Some don't have weaknesses equal to their strengths. Sadly, with me... It's a habit I try to level out my weaknesses and strengths, giving a bit more strengths than weaknesses. It's something I won't break or stop as without the listed weakness, the PC feels too op to me. Personally, that's why I listed them so they can be used since every match will never be exacting the same and just because you had a weakness listed doesn't mean my PC doesn't have a way to protect or is not aware of it. They wouldn't have 'survived' this long if they didn't know how to defend against people would use it and every case is different because no single match is ever the exact same.

Sorry for the wall, guys, I really am so don't kick my ass. >,<

@Fallenreaper

Nothing would stop them from participating in other battles with their chosen character. The Rookie Tournament is just that, for Rookies, so it would also be a good learning experience, hence keeping things simple - as well as slightly different, as everyone would play them differently. A water user vs water user could differ in how exactly they play them. For instance, Levius, my water user would use them to create extra arms, while another may use it purely to manipulate ice. Though you are right, they may not be able to participate without their 'muse', but then they can just not participate. I find elements easy to play, really.

Someone is really always gonna try to use adrenaline or something similar to give them an extra boost. So that's something I'll have to check during the acceptance process.

Stats are bad to start with, mainly, because a lot of people don't wanna have to use numbers when they are first learning something. In Rising Stars, however, it worked. Everyone was on the same level, but focused in different things. There was a systerm, but I can't be assed to recreate it. But basically; points 1-3 in each section cost 1 point each. Points 4-6 cost 2 points each. Points 7-9 cost 3 points.

We'll start with 20 for each character.

For instance: Points in skill(Total Cost)[reasoning]

Example

Character A:

Zanjutsu: 3(3)[One point for each]
Shunpo: 4(8)[One point for first three, 2 to achieve the 4th point, thus five points total in this one.]
Defense: 2(10)1 points for each]
Reiatsu/Kido: 3[1 points for each] -Reiatsu and Kido are split, but still equal 3-
Reiatsu 2/3(13)
Kido: 1/3
Intelligence: 1 (14)[One point for each]
Hakuda: 4(20)[1 point for first three, 2 points for 4th, making a total of 20 points.]

Character A:

Zanjutsu: 2(2)
Shunpo: 3(5)
Defense: 2(7)
Reiatsu/Kido: 6(16)
Reiatsu 2/6
Kido: 4/6
Intelligence: 2(18)
Hakuda: 2(20)

With the list, it's not really hard, but i'm lazy. So. Hahah.

But they are both essentially equal, but specialize in different things.

On weaknesses, yeah, some people don't list them and don't really ever hint at them. In Allaria, I ensure everyone does, because it makes them seem better.

[Darth]

Since I haven't really had a chance to chime in recently, I'll cover a few points in no particular order. Real OG block of text coming through.

T1* is the best** system we have for allowing people to fight competitively across genre and setting boundaries while still allowing for both a degree of freedom and of fairness. Can you make a system – or a modulation of T1 – to better suit a particular level of character power, or a specific genre or setting? Yes. You could modify the rules of T1 to better reflect the needs of a community that plays predominantly in traditional (read as: not modern) fantasy with a low level of powers. However, any system is defined as much by what it disallows as by what it allows, and a system that focus on low-powered, traditional fantasy characters will not work for characters outside that purview. So, inasmuch as a ruleset that allows for the broadest spectrum of characters and players to interact, T1 is really the only worthwhile system.

*Specifically, a variation of T1 that focuses on fair play, but any variation of T1 is built on the basic framework provided by the rules, so. Even sites that have never heard of T1 generally play by a ruleset that runs parallel to T1.

**You could easily replace the word "best" with "only" as far as free-form roleplay goes, in that there's not really any meaningful systems that compete with T1 for use.

When people refer to stats, they're talking about things like WIS, CHA, DEX, or similar "ability scores", which only have meaning within the framework of a system. Saying a character runs 30 mph hour while sprinting is technically a stat, but it's not a determinant number ment to represent some ability or capacity of a character within the context of a greater system. Numbers are useful, that goes without saying. I use numbers in my profile – my characters lifts, run speed, weight, and height are all listed.

However, these are all definite and not reliant on some sort of system. If I say that my character can bench six-hundred pounds, then what that means is evident without any further context necessary. We know what bench pressing is, we understand the number six-hundred, and we understand pounds as a system of measurement.

What does a score of 5, 10, or 20 "STR" mean? How are we measuring it? How are we defining it? First and foremost, it needs a system to provide a context of what STR, and scores thereof, mean. Secondly, that system the needs a means of interaction between one "score" and another, otherwise it's not really meaningful and it could be replaced by a qualitative/quantitative statement. And, if we say that 20 STR = benching 600 pounds, then we're merely gilding the lily; we could avoid obfuscation and simply say "benches 600 pounds."

What then (often) happens is one of two things:

First, a system can begin to delve into minutiae. What do you need scores for? Do you need a score to represent "DEF" and if so, do you need more than one kind? Magical defense? Physical? Is defense seperate from armor? Do we determine dodge chance, and take the capacity for choosing how and when to dodge (and the validity of the attempt) out of the player's hands? Do we assign a DEF score (or scores!) to a character and to each individual piece of armor? And if we assign a DEF score, is it then necessary to assign an ATK/DAM score to a weapon? How do we determine that score? Is the score always applied at a flat rate, or do we then have to develop math for glancing or partial blows? Do we have to define damage types? Piercing, blunt, slashing.? Defense vs piercing? How are characters created? Do we get x amount of points to work with? Do we roll dice?

Once you begin defining things numerically in the context of a system of play, you quickly find yourself in Pandora's Box with the lid thrown wide open. Again, not discussing numbers like a real world system of measurement. That's not a stat in the context of what I've described (although a stat could be assignd to it, see above). And the more you define numerically, the more you take out of the player's hands hands and put into the system, beyond their control wherein the determinant factor becomes comparing scores or rolling dice based on those scores. This is no longer freeform. You could make an effort to keep the system spare, simple, and lightweight, but when and where do you stop? At what degree of complexity and/or depth do you say "This is enough"? Do you just do a tri-stat system and not stat anything else? How do you define when and where stats come into play?

This leads into the second thing that can happen: as the elements of freeform are taken out of the players' hands, they grow steadily more reliant on the numbers. Eventually, what you have is less "fighting" and more of a competition focusing on one's capacity to game the system for maximal efficiency, it becomes a game of numbers. If I have 500 points to work with (and how I work with them is something the system would have to define; for example, do I pay more points to increase an ability score beyond a certain point? Do I get diminishing returns, or is it a flat buy-rate?), then I'm going to build a character that lets me exploit the numerical nature of the system as much as possible.. and the math will support me, even if I'm being an absolute tool about it.

That's why stat systems don't really work for free-form; eventually you're forced to choose between the stat system and freeform. That's why free-form roleplaying is delineated from one another in the first place. In free-form, I dictate what my character does without any systemic limitations. In tabletop, I have to roll to attack, and that roll is reliant on.. you guessed it, an ability score. In some ways, stat systems – where ability scores dictate character success – are antithetical to freeform. They're opposites.

Does that mean that you couldn't run a tournament based on a stat system? No. What it means is, you're going to sacrifice elements of free-form play in order to do so. How much or how little you sacrifice is going to depend on the system you come up with. And, again, a numerical stat system does not inherently provide more or less fairness or balance, so it's not necessarily "fixing" any problem that freeform has.

Next, on character balance.

A character doesn't need weaknesses to be balanced, they need limitations. There's a difference. Weaknesses can be a form of limitation, but they aren't the only means of character balance, and a character is often more complex than how the scale balances between strengths and weaknesses. Having an overt weakness (i.e. an allergy to sunlight, or a weakness to x or y form of magic) isn't necessary.

What is necessary, is clear, definable limits on how a character works and what they can do. What is necessary, is an understanding of what level you're playing your character at, and how to balance your character to fit that tier of power. I need to be able to look at my character sheet and say “Is this too much? Should I tone this down? Cut this out?” I need to very clearly outline the limitations of my character's powers, physical abilities, equipment, training, etc. What are they good at? What powers do they have? My profile should be completely transparent, to the point that anyone else can a) understand it and b) feasibly play my character.

I also need to have an internal system by which my character's powers (should they have any that require it) operate. Most often, this is a prep, cooldown, and/or limited-use system wherein a character must gather energy for x number of posts, cannot use a specific spell/ability again for y amount of posts, and can only use the ability z amount of times in a fight.

I don't need a random allergy to black truffle oil to balance my character. My character doesn't need to be blind six days out of the month and deaf every Tuesday in order to counter-balance the fact that he can belch thunder and shit lightning. What my character needs, is clear, defined limits on these powers.

On the topic of helping new players:

The best thing to do is to create a thread devoted to character creation and balancing that is specific to fighting, and then have a few provide help to those who need it. That way if someone's not sure about something, they have someone they can go to for help. Most people have the requisite Google-Fu to find basic information, what they often need help with is putting it together and understanding it. A small group of people - three or four - can be immensely helpful in helping someone construct and streamline a profile.

[ImportantNobody]

@GreivousKhan, someone has your same avatar on another roleplay forum. You must fight them to the death to become the one true user of that avatar.

[Fallenreaper]

@Darth

I think... that's the most I've ever seen from you save for one heated discussion before guildfall. Which I can't recall for the life of me, but still nice to know you're alive. Hi.

I am hardly upset. I have not started swearing. Hang around long enough and you will get to know everyones quirks.

@Skallagrim

<Snipped quote by Skallagrim>

Yeah, people assume something similar about me a fair bit.

@MelonHead

It's not easy telling through text and I can get on some people's nerves, especially when something is phrased a key way. Some times sentences don't register and it's not because it doesn't make sense, more or less because my brain won't translate it for me I guess you could say. So, it had to be reworded for me to finally click. It happens time to time. Also, some personalities don't mix well after all and it's no one's fault, just the way things work out sometimes.

@Fallenreaper As a n00b to the arena, what can we do to make the transition from RP to competitive arena Rp easier.

@Skallagrim

I've been stating them throughout my replies a bit but one of Darth's points about new players would help. However... and I could be wrong, but isn't that what the arena FAQ/Advice or Arena thread is actually for in a sense? Namely to help newbies and vets? >_> Which means I really should use it. XD

As for actually transiting from rp to arena, I think the multiverse would be best in this case as you mentioned it's not all combat. Which means there might be wider periods of interactions without an actual fight making it easy to alternate between the two different types. I won't stop normal rping any time soon, but my arena rping might increase if I can create a balance I like.

However, if you see in any battles or posts I make where I could've made a mistake or something is off then pop in correct me. Explain why it's incorrect, suggest other options are that's possible (not that I may take them. But it helps me think less linear) and the results of it. Also answering questions helps as well when they crop up in an ooc. If I fumble badly, don't assume I'm doing it to get an edge but assume it's because I didn't image it clearly enough or I misunderstood the physics behind it. Pause the fight and ask about it.

I just treated it as a normal RP..

@Descartes

I find it a bit hard when a match, not on a continuum or storyline, lasts only a scene and then it's over. Especially when you can't tie it into future matches fluidly or in some cases, find a reason to actually hit each other! XD

I think that's one of the reasons one of my favorite rps was Lyzan's training thread.

If I recalled right, it was a gladiator fantasy setting where fighters were basically captured, marched to the arena, tested then divided into houses. Where the goal for the pcs were to fight for freedom though their experience in the arena. First arrivals were sorted into houses based on their skills and such as I recall Onix was about to be put into the one with magic specializations before Redbeard, retired gladiator who gained his freedom, talked the dark Orc type creature into allowing her into his house (training group>. Sadly it ended before I could test her out.

I'm pretty sure Lyzan was aiming to use the entrance post for seeing my style, flaws and areas I needed to work on as well as show everyone else what they would be facing in the future. Though the non arena request would be facing NPCs, my foes were going to be treated as official PCs. I recall discussing that with him since I was co-gm at the time. It might be an example to recreate, including the option of working in groups as Khan's point makes sense, and use for rookies interested in the multiverse. It could be a frequent meet or stop for character teams to pick up new party members to further help (teach) them in plot/arcs. Though this is just a thought really.

<Snipped quote by Fallenreaper>

Nothing would stop them from participating in other battles with their chosen character. The Rookie Tournament is just that, for Rookies, so it would also be a good learning experience, hence keeping things simple - as well as slightly different, as everyone would play them differently. A water user vs water user could differ in how exactly they play them. For instance, Levius, my water user would use them to create extra arms, while another may use it purely to manipulate ice. Though you are right, they may not be able to participate without their 'muse', but then they can just not participate. I find elements easy to play, really.

Someone is really always gonna try to use adrenaline or something similar to give them an extra boost. So that's something I'll have to check during the acceptance process.

Stats are bad to start with, mainly, because a lot of people don't wanna have to use numbers when they are first learning something. In Rising Stars, however, it worked. Everyone was on the same level, but focused in different things. There was a systerm, but I can't be assed to recreate it. But basically; points 1-3 in each section cost 1 point each. Points 4-6 cost 2 points each. Points 7-9 cost 3 points.

We'll start with 20 for each character.

For instance: Points in skill(Total Cost)[reasoning]

Example

Character A:

Zanjutsu: 3(3)[One point for each]
Shunpo: 4(8)[One point for first three, 2 to achieve the 4th point, thus five points total in this one.]
Defense: 2(10)1 points for each]
Reiatsu/Kido: 3[1 points for each] -Reiatsu and Kido are split, but still equal 3-
Reiatsu 2/3(13)
Kido: 1/3
Intelligence: 1 (14)[One point for each]
Hakuda: 4(20)[1 point for first three, 2 points for 4th, making a total of 20 points.]

Character A:

Zanjutsu: 2(2)
Shunpo: 3(5)
Defense: 2(7)
Reiatsu/Kido: 6(16)
Reiatsu 2/6
Kido: 4/6
Intelligence: 2(18)
Hakuda: 2(20)

With the list, it's not really hard, but i'm lazy. So. Hahah.

But they are both essentially equal, but specialize in different things.

.

On weaknesses, yeah, some people don't list them and don't really ever hint at them. In Allaria, I ensure everyone does, because it makes them seem better.

@Rilla

Wholly shit, ghosts from the past!!! Don't mind me I was on this wonderful site called Bleacher once where I started rping, which, actually started off with stats. Though... it was a nightmare and even was revamped 2-3 times I believe. Drove me crazy but it was fun interacting when I actually got a chance. ^-^

Though I think Darth sort of covered anything I was about to go into with that aspect.

[Rilla]

A lot of times, it's hard to help new people. They either don't ask, ask and vanish, or just do their own thing. Some people have messaged me about characters and then... nothing. Just vanished. So I don't really worry about it, if they wanna know they'll ask.

Another thing is, the potential for the 'teacher' to just use the time as a way to just beat the shit outta the new person, for the lolz. We actually, occasionally, warn against that.

[Skallagrim]

I have had the same experiences as Rilla, so it is difficult to get excited when a new person enters the arena asking for advice.

[ImportantNobody]

New character ability: Box if infinity cats!

[Fallenreaper]

A lot of times, it's hard to help new people. They either don't ask, ask and vanish, or just do their own thing. Some people have messaged me about characters and then... nothing. Just vanished. So I don't really worry about it, if they wanna know they'll ask.

Another thing is, the potential for the 'teacher' to just use the time as a way to just beat the shit outta the new person, for the lolz. We actually, occasionally, warn against that.

@Rilla

I have had the same experiences as Rilla, so it is difficult to get excited when a new person enters the arena asking for advice.

@Skallagrim

Understandable, though in my case, Lyzan's method was positive and had a purpose. Mainly the pm was originally a normal rp with arena elements stirred in. It helped a lot in my case to prevent the whole just beat up on the student as my PC literally was being built from scratch. Rach was a normal, harden bitch without any fighting style compared to what Lyzan's PC would end up teaching her. In the end, the result would've been an actual high end tier PC. That might've been one of the biggest factors that prevented the whole punching bag syndrome.

[Skallagrim]

However we aren't talking about you, we are talking about people with little/no arena experience coming here and

a) being overwhelemed by the characters,
b) put off by the banter which can approach hostile,
c) realize that the arena fighters expect more in a fight than a few lines or a paragraph.

I have done simple instructional fights where I show people how to attack and defend. I have used weapons or hand to hand. Each person is different but many realize that to fight a T1 fight is much harder than a casual fight where you can simply say "Biff shoots Rilla with his .50 DE and then cuts off his head with his vorpal blade *snicker snack* and off with his head"

The issue is not the quality of instructors, rather the student's desire to learn to fight T1. I think it is great you had your learning expereince, however it is unique to you. How to translate that to others if they do not stick around?

[ImportantNobody]

"Box if infinity cats" sounds like an engrish typo of "box of infinite cats" but actually has a very profound meaning. It's like schrodinger's cat; there could be infinite cats in there or not, both at the same time!

[Fallenreaper]

However we aren't talking about you, we are talking about people with little/no arena experience coming here and

a) being overwhelemed by the characters,
b) put off by the banter which can approach hostile,
c) realize that the arena fighters expect more in a fight than a few lines or a paragraph.

I have done simple instructional fights where I show people how to attack and defend. I have used weapons or hand to hand. Each person is different but many realize that to fight a T1 fight is much harder than a casual fight where you can simply say "Biff shoots Rilla with his .50 DE and then cuts off his head with his vorpal blade *snicker snack* and off with his head"

The issue is not the quality of instructors, rather the student's desire to learn to fight T1. I think it is great you had your learning expereince, however it is unique to you. How to translate that to others if they do not stick around?

@Skallagrim

The problem with people, everyone's different. To be honest, you could create a vast variety for every taste, style and desire, and do everything you can to carter to them but they might not stick around even then. It's a fact of rp and not just in the arena. I only managed to keep Blood Players because we communicate in the chatroom and discuss stuff, including what they could add or do with the rp, and even then I don't think that's why they stick around. I've had just as many people come and go as well despite how much I tried to be what I considered to be a good GM.

T1 in the arena, much like the other levels of rp, has its own flavor. First off, as you just stated it's not simply a statement and you're done with the action. While it has elements we use in normal rp, I recall a memorable one I did with Sundered Echo in Aftermath, many of these scenes are more chess mentality than story. Which I think turn off players a lot because they might figure here in the arena you have to be good at winning or you can't have fun. The only real way to know is figure out how to take a survey and actually get other people's thoughts on the arena and why it's intimidating for them or don't want to stick around. It's the only way I can think of that would even be close to getting the answers you're looking for.

As I said, I got lucky. Even mimicking how I was learning might not even work mainly by the sounds of it you're fighting against assumptions which every rp has. Adv. according to some common beliefs, is suppose to be paragraphs on paragraphs when a well written paragraph that 1. reacts to the scene, 2. adds something for others to build on besides monologue, and 3. has decent grammar can do just as much as a page of fluff. On the other side, Free is assumed to be lazy, illiterate, and other negative thoughts. Which isn't true for either one and I've actually played across the board to know this, though I prefer Adv and Casual. How to eliminate those, I can't say to be honest.

As unhelpful as that is, it's my thoughts on the matter.

[Rilla]

why do I always gotta be the one who gets my head cut off. -_-

[Fallenreaper]

why do I always gotta be the one who gets my head cut off. -_-

@Rilla

Awww, *hugs*

[Rilla]

I think Skally is tryna kill me