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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Its a good line. A talking point almost. But the data pretty clearly bares out that the kind of voter id laws being pushed to combat almost nonexistent voter fraud disproportionately affect minorities. I don't expect mere facts to carry the day though.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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I am nervous because I hear this crap almost everyday. In person. I'm not adsorbing it from media in some passive way, it is my LIVED experience.


Well I'm very sorry to hear that. For the record, your responses are... well not 'word for word' but very similar to the noise from the media. Symone Sanders of CNN in particular. Apologies if I'm connecting dots that aren't connected -- it just all sounds rather familiar, that's all.

I'm not a political historian but it is clear that the modern GOP are the heirs to the Jim Crow legacy. Southern Strategy blah blah. It is pretty easy to see which party is pushing for voter ID legislation which suppresses minority turn out.


I take issue with that. Check this out:



voter ID legislation is good policy. That it's harder to pick up a pack of smokes than it is to elect a president is insane to me.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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Ha good one!


I had requested you share your testimony with us and you declined, as you may, but until you provide anything suggesting contrary to my statement, I cannot take the argument of "Ha, that's such a lie it's funny to me!" seriously. I do not see it or encounter it. I supervise seven women at the moment and am overseen by two and then one far above us all in her station and role. I have however, seen reverse sexism as I stated and was directly affected by, but that was born of policy, not the people enforcing it.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Anyone who would suggest that sexism isn't a thing, is so utterly divorced from reality that no response other than amusement is appropriate. I don't see the need to bare my soul and share personally painful experience to no purpose.

I can even expect to be called a liar by implication.

<Snipped quote by Penny>
your responses are... well not 'word for word' but very similar to the noise from the media. Symone Sanders of CNN in particular. Apologies if I'm connecting dots that aren't connected -- it just all sounds rather familiar, that's all.


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I can even expect to be called a liar by implication.

<Snipped quote by mdk>


Not at all. We were discussing whether or not the media (and by association the left) was influencing your perception -- I believe the phrase you used was 'passively absorbing' in some way? I merely pointed out that, like.... I mean..... there's a strong correlation.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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Anyone who would suggest that sexism isn't a thing, is so utterly divorced from reality that no response other than amusement is appropriate. I don't see the need to bare my soul and share personally painful experience to no purpose.

The quote I am assuming you are referring to is below for the sake of transparency.

However, I have still yet to see a case of legitimate or potentially valid misogyny that demonizes women within my life and lifetime. This is not to say it has not or does not happen, as that would be far flung, but I can only report reliably on what I know of in concrete and through repeat observation.

No, I did not suggest sexism is not a thing and I in fact said the exact opposite. I said I still have yet to be involved in or witness actual misogyny. You can even note my word choice to reflect what I later revealed in an unrelated conversation and to another person. I explicitly say that it does happen and that any notion it does not is far flung, but its reliability as an issue or area for concern is of questionable status. Your "amusement" is ill placed and displays poorly of your person and conduct in this debate, as is the attempt to bring into question my perception of reality.

I respectfully ask you treat other peoples' opinions how you wish for your own to be treated. Thus far I believe I have not laughed at or ridiculed anyone here, to include you, for thinking that sexism is somehow a "big problem" despite my disagreement with that argument.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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"There is nothing to indicate to me that women are unfairly treated compared to men. "

The quote I was referring to was the one I quoted.

As I said @mdk when I explicitly state that something is my lived experience, I mean that I personally have experienced it. I explicitly stated that I didn't adsorb it from the media. If there are similar reports, consider that they might actually represent common experiences.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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For comparison, they are together and below.

However, I have still yet to see a case of legitimate or potentially valid misogyny that demonizes women within my life and lifetime. This is not to say it has not or does not happen, as that would be far flung, but I can only report reliably on what I know of in concrete and through repeat observation.

There is nothing to indicate to me that women are unfairly treated compared to men.

I stated my exact same belief in short the second time. Nothing contradicts these two statements, as even the second quoted section explicitly states, "... to indicate to me ..." to which I stand by. You have not provided anything to the argument to counter this claim, not even examples outside yourself given you do not want to share personal experiences. I have repeatedly confirmed I do not take "random acts of cruelty" by others as the norm and my view points have confirmed this; to use another argument, I for example have never said all of Antifa is made up of violent anarchists, just that they have a high concentration of them. The same can be applied to the entire debate of sexism and how impactful it is, which is why I note this.

I am sorry, but you have still yet to address my comment or the issue, @Penny.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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As I said @mdk when I explicitly state that something is my lived experience, I mean that I personally have experienced it. I explicitly stated that I didn't adsorb it from the media. If there are similar reports, consider that they might actually represent common experiences.


I'm arguing that "MAGA = get rid of everybody not white" is something you may have absorbed, because that argument is not a matter of experience and it strongly resembles the media's version. It certainly doesn't represent my attitude, or that of the people I know and/or interact with (greater than half the trump supporters in my immediate circle are minorities). That is my lived experience. But as I said -- swapping anecdotes will get us nowhere.

THE MORAL IS -- I think it's awful that you're living in fear. I'm convinced that you're not making up stories about random assholes -- there are definitely random assholes, I doubt none of that. I'm similarly convinced that the political left wants you to feel this way, because (a) it serves their interest, (b) they're actively spreading an agenda tailor-made to that purpose, and (c) it's working -- you're repeating their propaganda without even knowing you're doing it.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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I'm not going to elucidate examples on so obvious a topic. If you are really interested I commend you to the Internet. Google.com is a good choice, scholar.google.com is a better one.

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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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@mdk It is my belief that the political left is more in line with my beliefs. If they are pandering for my non existent vote by appearing less racist and anti immigrant, then I guess I have to admit that it is working.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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So you claim you have a point, one that you insist is a pervasive truth, but are unwilling to articulate it or back it up with evidence or even anecdotes, @Penny. I cannot take that seriously to any extent as you can well imagine. In essence, there is no debate or even argument to be had for or against you, which is unfortunate you either do not feel strongly enough about it, hold the views of others with such disdain as to not share it, or had none at all the entire time. The last of those options I hold the most scorn for because this has amounted to little for anyone then.

You continue to act as though this is a "so obvious topic", but no one with the exception of you can identify what qualities those are that are obvious. I think that should strike one as a bit odd.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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@mdk It is my belief that the political left is more in line with my beliefs. If they are pandering for my non existent vote by appearing less racist and anti immigrant, then I guess I have to admit that it is working.


You do you. I obviously dislike being portrayed as a racist and anti-immigrant for the sake of them hatemongering their way to your exploited vote -- but you do you. Free country and whatnot. Plus a lot of that is certainly on those assholes who are being assholes to you, so to hang the whole thing on propaganda is certainly foolish. You've got good reasons, I don't doubt it for a second. The right's biggest enemy is usually on the right.

Anyway, besides "not being the GOP," what beliefs do you like from the political left?
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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@mdk I'm not trying to suggest that you are a racist or a sexist and I apologize if I came across that way. A person makes a political choice for their own reasons and those are always going to be nuanced.

Things I like about the left.
When I stop to think about it, it is surprising how many things I have to define as better than the GOP position.

Healthcare. Universal healthcare is a left wing idea in America. The democrats aren't really committed to it (maybe Sanders and a few others) but at least they are somewhat active in expanding things like Medicaid. I deal with people everyday who wouldn't be in the dire straits they are if they could afford regular preventive care. I'd personally like to see a system like Australia or Canada use. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

Women's health. Every time I see an attempt to make access to women's healthcare services more difficult it is always the right doing it. Access to these services including abortion services is important to me and the left is the one not tearing it down.

Social programs ditto. I know we would all like to be in fantasy land with 100^ employment but I don't think the threat of starvation is a good motivator.

Protections for lgbtq. Again nothing doctrinally, prevents the right from being more supportive of this but it seems to me that harmful bills more frequently come from this quarter.

Globalism. I want America to play a leading role in the world. I like free speech and other such American notions. This means engaging with allies, NATO, not threatening to defund the UN ect. Globalism is a literal dirty word on the far right and I worry about a retraction of American influence. For all the hype bout Islam being a threat to the west I'm much more concerned about a collapse in china because the government can't satisfy the expanding middle class and opts to invade Taiwan for jingoistic reasons. I realize that that puts me out of step with someone like Sanders who seems to want a retraction of influence for different reasons than his right leaning counterparts.

Economics. I don't believe that totally free markets are a good idea. Id like to see some form of sane financial regulation and it seems to me that such regulation is to be found on the left.

Global Warming. I don't want to fuck the planet up. I know a number of climatologists who regularly need to be talked off chairs. The left dosent go far enough on this, but at least they are willing to look at the science and agree that it exists. Always a plus.

Immigration. I've covered this. Not calling for the blanket deportation of millions of people, building giant impractical walls. Ect.

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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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@mdk I'm not trying to suggest that you are a racist or a sexist and I apologize if I came across that way. A person makes a political choice for their own reasons and those are always going to be nuanced.

Things I like about the left.
When I stop to think about it, it is surprising how many things I have to define as better than the GOP position.

Healthcare universal healthcare is a left wing idea in America. The democrats aren't really committed to it (maybe Sanders and a few others) but at least they are somewhat active in expanding things like Medicaid. I deal with people everyday who wouldn't be in the dire straits they are if they could afford regular preventive care. I'd personally like to see a system like Australia or Canada use. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

Women's health. Every time I see an attempt to make access to women's healthcare services more difficult it is always the right doing it. Access to these services including abortion services is important to me and the left is the one not tearing it down.

Social programs ditto. I know we would all like to be in fantasy land with 100^ employment but I don't think the threat of starvation is a good motivator.

Protections for lgbtq. Again nothing doctrinally prevents the right from being more supportive of this but it seems to me that harmful bills more frequently come from this quarter.

Globalism I want America to play a leading role in the world. I like free speech and other such American notions. This means engaging with allies, NATO, not threatening to defund the UN ect. Globalism is a literal dirty word on the far right and I worry about a retraction of American influence. For all the hype bout Islam being a threat to the west I'm much more concerned about a collapse in china because the government can't satisfy the expanding middle class and opts to invade Taiwan for jingoistic reasons.


Awesome -- those are some sound positions. Clearly I've been overreacting about propaganda. You're no pushover, and you've done your homework. That's fantastic. I disagree with (almost) all of it lol, but that's not the point.

Healthcare -- this is where personal experience is gonna play, which makes it a non-productive conversation. My disability was directly caused by U.S. government-controlled healthcare (VA, TriCare), and that's pretty much going to prevent me from ever supporting anything remotely similar in the US. I mean government healthcare literally ripped me apart. So...... no, not for me. But I respect the other side of the argument -- it's pragmatism and not politics for me. The U.S. is too big and too geopolitically diverse to support NHS or single-payer. State-level care is a whole other beast (think RomneyCare) -- it's reasonable to think a system could be devised that works for Rhode Island, but unthinkable that this exact same system will work in rural Wyoming. Anywho. This won't go anywhere -- my experience leaves me rather unflexible on this account. Turning the page.

Women's Health -- well I'm certainly not qualified to speak to that'n. My position begins and ends with "don't make people do things they don't wanna do." That includes both carrying a pregnancy to term and funding contraceptives. That kinda does mean that I wind up supporting a lot of those GOP bills about funding PP or whatever -- but I'm not the sort that believes in banning stuff either. It's a weird line and doesn't feel like anyone important is on the same page with me, so I don't wind up voting along this issue.

Social programs -- it's embarrassing how little they accomplish compared to how much they cost. Speaking broadly. We should be allowed to talk about reducing fraud/waste/abuse, but folks like Rep. Maxine Waters -- living in a multi-million-dollar mansion on a "government salary wink wink" -- won't let us have that debate. Gosh I wonder why.

LGBTQetc -- all about personal freedoms over here. I mentioned at one point earlier that I hate the whole "pro/anti" parentheticals that seem to entrap the entire field of politics, and the LGBT issues are a major reason why I feel that way. Anybody can call anything "anti-LGBT" and instantly summon an army of boycotts, protests, and death threats. See for reference: soon after the SCOTUS decision on marriage equality, the lobbying machine decided to make bathrooms the next benchmark and immediately, if you were a drunk 23-year-old in a nightclub suddenly made nervous about going to the bathroom, you were a horrible bigot. Little kids were fair game. It was fucking disgusting to me, and it was all possible because "ANTI-LGBT" is just a damned successful brand.

....that's a rambling response aint it. The point is I'm thrilled that people finally got the freedom to be themselves, and depressed that seemingly immediately it turned into "anyone who doesn't do it our way is evil." Like it flipped. That. Damn. Quick. How is that possible? Whatever.

Globalism -- yeeeeeeaaaaaah that's a hairy one. See the GOP at-large is ALL ABOUT globalism. The new wave is very much not. Interestingly the democrats of 12 years ago were very much not, back when a Republican was the one dropping the bombs (and I expect if Trump drops a few more, the pendulum will flip again). Internationally, I'm more of a "what's in it for me" type -- I'm not interested in World Police, unless I'm getting something out of it. And I think that's fair.

EDIT: more added! Standby.

Economics: You will certainly find regulation on the left, you are correct in that assessment.

Global Warming: Well........ I mean that's a whole thread. I don't believe there's ANY AMOUNT of regulation of US emissions that would make a dent -- partly because I don't trust the predictive models (they've never been correct), partly because I think the man-made influence is righteously overstated, but mostly because nothing and I mean NOTHING we can do will put a dent in global emissions when you take into account emerging economies. STILL -- if/when clean alternatives come around, let's adapt. They're not good enough yet.

Immigration -- I want a big, beautiful wall with a big beautiful door. Illegal immigration is hurting legal immigrants in the job sector; when you look at living conditions and wages it's practically slavery for those who come here illegally; and of course there's the gang and drug violence that exploits that (and other) misery to make big bucks. We're allowed to have control of our border. That's literally the defining feature of a nation.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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<Snipped quote by Penny>

Healthcare -- this is where personal experience is gonna play, which makes it a non-productive conversation. My disability was directly caused by U.S. government-controlled healthcare (VA, TriCare), and that's pretty much going to prevent me from ever supporting anything remotely similar in the US. I mean government healthcare literally ripped me apart. So...... no, not for me. But I respect the other side of the argument -- it's pragmatism and not politics for me. The U.S. is too big and too geopolitically diverse to support NHS or single-payer. State-level care is a whole other beast (think RomneyCare) -- it's reasonable to think a system could be devised that works for Rhode Island, but unthinkable that this exact same system will work in rural Wyoming. Anywho. This won't go anywhere -- my experience leaves me rather unflexible on this account. Turning the page.


Wow that sucks, I'm sorry that happened to you.

I've had some experience with universal healthcare overseas and it has worked adequately if imperfectly. Going bankrupt to pay for cancer treatment (or more generally not paying for it) is not good for the patient or the facility and there are certain aspects of healthcare which will never work in a for profit system.

Some insurance is almost always going to be better than no insurance, but I can definitely see how what sounds like outright malpractice and incompetence would turn you off.

As for rolling out systems state by state. Hey so long as people get coverage and can afford to see a doctor/not be ruined by medical debt I'm not dogmatic about how it gets done! Big systems like the NHS are able to keep costs low by sheer purchasing power and that might be less true of a patchwork of state systems but you could probably address that by less intrusive federal legislation.

<Snipped quote by Penny>

Women's Health -- well I'm certainly not qualified to speak to that'n. My position begins and ends with "don't make people do things they don't wanna do." That includes both carrying a pregnancy to term and funding contraceptives. That kinda does mean that I wind up supporting a lot of those GOP bills about funding PP or whatever -- but I'm not the sort that believes in banning stuff either. It's a weird line and doesn't feel like anyone important is on the same page with me, so I don't wind up voting along this issue.


I'd rather not pay for alot of things my tax dollars go to ;) I do however support the right of low income women to get access to contraceptives, reproductive services and an array of other services that women need. If the lefts supports that, and it seems they do, then that is attractive to me as a (theoretical) voter. Vote for the sort of stuff you want to see.

<Snipped quote by Penny>

Social programs -- it's embarrassing how little they accomplish compared to how much they cost. Speaking broadly. We should be allowed to talk about reducing fraud/waste/abuse, but folks like Rep. Maxine Waters -- living in a multi-million-dollar mansion on a "government salary wink wink" -- won't let us have that debate. Gosh I wonder why.


I'll come out and say that I've never used a social program in the US so I'm short on personal experience. I do frequently deal with people who do and they definitely need help.

I'm pro feeding a hungry children regardless of how ineffective the bureaucracy that accomplishes that is. The problem is with the bureaucracy rather than the impulse.

It always kind of boggles my mind that people just throw up there hand and claim that government can never accomplish anything. Surely the answer is to build a better system.

If inefficiency exists then ways to make them more productive is absolutely a conversation we should be having.

<Snipped quote by Penny>

LGBTQetc -- all about personal freedoms over here.


We can agree on that. It would be nice if we could live in a world where people could go to the bathroom they wanted. It would be great if people could all enjoy the same rights and not have to justify their gender choice. Discussion about who is 'completely transitioned' ect are really silly in my view. Also the whole I'm not going to serve you because of your sexual orientation thing is annoying, you couldn't get away with that if you did it on the basis of race so I dont see why its ok with sexual orientation or gender identity. Still another case of voting for the party that isn't manufacturing obstacles for people.

<Snipped quote by Penny>

Globalism -- yeeeeeeaaaaaah that's a hairy one. See the GOP at-large is ALL ABOUT globalism. The new wave is very much not. Interestingly the democrats of 12 years ago were very much not, back when a Republican was the one dropping the bombs (and I expect if Trump drops a few more, the pendulum will flip again). Internationally, I'm more of a "what's in it for me" type -- I'm not interested in World Police, unless I'm getting something out of it. And I think that's fair.


Maybe this isn't a partisan issue. Recent Republican rhetoric seems to have been fairly anti UN and alot of public comment is worrying to longtime US allies who wonder if they are going to be left swinging in the breeze. You can already see this in the reasonably timid reactions to Chinese moves in the South China Sea (moves by the allies).

Beyond military intervention though I'd love to see more support for global initiatives in general. If it could be done in a smart way it could be a great boon to America and the world. I know World Police is a kind of joke but I think its true that real American engagement is almost always a good thing.

Imagine for example an effective economic and policing coaltion to improve conditions in Central and South America. Maybe we could slow the flow of narcotics and illegal immigration by addressing the actual problems at the source. It might be good for everybody.

<Snipped quote by Penny>

Global Warming: Well........ I mean that's a whole thread. I don't believe there's ANY AMOUNT of regulation of US emissions that would make a dent -- partly because I don't trust the predictive models (they've never been correct), partly because I think the man-made influence is righteously overstated, but mostly because nothing and I mean NOTHING we can do will put a dent in global emissions when you take into account emerging economies. STILL -- if/when clean alternatives come around, let's adapt. They're not good enough yet.


It may in fact be impossible to halt the progress of global warming, certainly I know climatologists who will privately tell you that we are screwed already. This dosent mean we shouldn't do everything in our power to mitigate it. If the left is willing to take the science seriously and do something about it then great, they get my pretend vote.

<Snipped quote by Penny>

Immigration -- I want a big, beautiful wall with a big beautiful door. Illegal immigration is hurting legal immigrants in the job sector; when you look at living conditions and wages it's practically slavery for those who come here illegally; and of course there's the gang and drug violence that exploits that (and other) misery to make big bucks. We're allowed to have control of our border. That's literally the defining feature of a nation.


Sure, I get where you are coming from here. I just think that controlling the border has more to do with drug policy and partnering with countries in Central and South America than wasting trillions of dollars on an ineffective wall.

I'm certainly glad that the door was open for me to come here, but I'm a well educated woman with alot of advantages. I cant really blame a teenager fleeing the hell of El Salvador or the Mexican drug war for the safe, if illegal life here.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Vilageidiotx
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@The Harbinger of Ferocity

The argument of police checkpoints appearing every few weeks at random, or in specific static locations, is a "police state" is hollow in comparison and contrast to other, historically well known police states.


If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck.

I specifically prefaced my statement by saying "I would say." because I do, just as I disagree that "America is what we make it."; I contrarily believe that America has some fundamentals that cannot be compromised, especially not in the name of socialism and its foundations in social justice.


I still disagree. Justice is more important than arbitrary concepts like "Americaness".

You can however, entirely rationally argue that my advocating for elevated security across the board might lead down a slippery slope to a police state.


It probably would in the sense that it would involve desensitizing people to the presence of the state in their personal lives so that it becomes easier to argue for an even more invasive state. But besides that, I still maintain that the stuff you are recommending is a cure for a disease we don't have, and therefore both invasive and pointless.

or at minimum being carded if you are buying with cash


wat? why? What problem are we trying to solve here? Are you implying society needs to enforce some sort of "License to purchase"?

Despite this note, I will never concede communism as anything less than an actual, not hypothetical, enemy of the free world, namely the United States.


What specifically are you talking about here? Stalinism? Bernie Sanders? FDR? I'm not sure what part this had to play in the conversation before.

To the next topic, I do not believe there is any issue in semantics. A natural bell curve exists in that the further you get from what is considered "centrist" the more you become an extreme by that virtue. If the center right is "Republican" and the center left is "Democrat" that reasonably moves the Right Wing, "Alt-Right" and Alt-Right to the fringes in that order, just as it does in mirror with the left. Political motives become deeper and stronger the further you go to either side and the reasonability of violence to achieve those wants becomes more likely. The extremes of the left are made up of everything from communists to anarchists who have and do advocate violence; they are the more recent propagators. The real Alt-Right is notorious for this too because they so strongly cling to the ability to maintain arms - it is a cliché of their faction that they are all supposedly skin headed and surrounded by "assault rifles".


Imma start with the last first and say that gun ownership isn't a far right phenomena. The center right is just as into it. Not only that, I've seen surveys that suggest the Gun issue is the most common issue where Democrats disagree with their party. Aggressive racism is what divides them from the regular right.

Also, I think you are overgeneralizing still. Because violent groups tend to exist on the extremes doesn't mean all politics out of the center are violent.

I do not believe in the notion of privilege


Well that's just silly. To say this is to say that both myself and Donald Trump have the same access to power, which would be a ridiculous statement. You can disagree about how certain groups determine privelage, but to say we live in an exactly equitable society is frankly fantastic.

The cost in this circumstance is the comfort of the remaining 99.7% of the regular populace, a noteworthy portion being roughly half of which disagrees with the concept, or that a law needs to enforce it. It is not the duty of the populace to bow to or cater to a minority, especially an extremely small minority. It is the duty of that minority to integrate and become part of the rest of the population and explain to those who are misinformed on it. Here there is no misinformation, as this is a largely out of proportion issue, just as the "Women's Rights" argument that somehow women in America are not equal to their male counterparts; they're both Americans.


Before I go on, I gotta point out that you are going waaay out there with this subject, further than most of the Libertarians in this thread would go. Which is to say that you are...

AN EXTREMIST!

But not a violent one. I sympathize with you.

I don't see how requiring, say, ramps for disabled people would be "Forcing the population to bow to the needs of the disabled". The purpose of this sort of thing is social utility, to make the most out of every member of society by giving them access to their own needs. I admit you are an interesting sort of statist who believes in more police but less social utility.

To the other topic, there are those who are flying Nazi flags, but then there are those across the line - who you actually consistently see - flying the Hammer and Sickle unironically; both massacred and murdered their populace and those that they held dominion over and both are the symbols of the worst of humanity. No less, the former is extremely uncommon to the point that from everything I have seen in these riots, there has not been one flown.


I've seen more Nazi stuff being trotted out than Soviet stuff tbh.

I disagree that Bike-Lock Guy is somehow not a representative of the Black Bloc


Sure, the Black Bloc. But not the left in general.

dded this in post, but that question alone begs from me these thoughts, "Who determines what is or is not 'systematically disadvantaged'?", "Who decides what benefits they need in particular?", "When does someone cease being 'systematically disadvantaged'?", "Does someone who falls under multiple spectrums of 'systematic disadvantage' gain more benefits than those with fewer? Doesn't that put those people at their own disadvantage?", "What about those who are not 'systematically disadvantaged', what is their role? Do they need to take on the burden of other people? Is it by option or force?"


Us. Democracy exists so we can have these discussions, and make these decisions. We haven't put a Junta of disabled people in charge (well, I mean... not that kind of disabled) who are dictating terms to us. We are deciding them as a society. You make it sound like people without disabilities have no say in the matter, but in reality we do.

Yeah that's my point. They're trying to frighten you so they can use you, and 'they' aren't the GOP. Spoiler alert: they've been doing it since Jim Crow. They're not your friends.


Eck, both parties do this scare tactic shit. You should have read the crazy e-mail my grandma sent us all the day before the election. The Republicans are no glorious white knight, nor the Democrats the Great Satan. They are just good ol' cynical political parties.

I would rather have a potentially smaller voter turn out with less fraud than I would with a larger voter turn out with potentially more fraud,


Personally I prefer it the other way. I'd rather see democracy active but imperfect over seeing it snuffed out through bureaucracy. And, as a professional Bureaucrat, I gotta say that you probably shouldn't be trusting is with something like access to the ballot.

State-level care is a whole other beast (think RomneyCare) -- it's reasonable to think a system could be devised that works for Rhode Island, but unthinkable that this exact same system will work in rural Wyoming.


Here's where I really diverge here. The United States doesn't really work like that anymore, where each state is its own completely separate and individual unit. The Midwestern states are largely poor, we already drink more tax dollars than we pay in, so there is no way in shit that we could create a system like this. If things go this way, where blue states develop themselves and red states are left in the dust, the trouble currently experience by Middle America will worsen as everyone flees. Me included. States-Rights-Land is a land where I have to find a way out of Middle America quickly, Grapes of Wrath style if need be.

What I know about Wyoming, their only recourse for a health insurance system would be some sort of dating site to hook people up with rich ranchers.

Which is all to say that, since large parts of the midwest are the agrarian supportive structures of the urbanized coasts, the entire country is a single financial system rather than fifty separate ones and has to be treated as such. Pretending Kansas can do all the same things that Texas or California can do is utopian at this point.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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@Vilageidiotx

A police state is broadly defined as a government that on whim executes power and authority through the police. It usually has a secret police force that restricts and controls freedom of speech, political views, individual mobility, economics and social life, rather than using regular legal procedures and channels. This is paraphrased from a few separate definitions to emphasize that police checkpoints at most fall under limiting individual mobility, because they would, as with any stop, delay a person. I do not see any other criteria being met, especially the bias towards spying on the populace with restrictions and control placed on speech, politics, economics and social habits. By contrast and for example, East Germany, which is considered to be a classical police state, had approximately one informant or secret policemen per six-and-one-half people.

This does not meet the duck test; it might look like a duck, but it does not walk like a duck or quack like a duck.

Justice under the guise of social justice is a far cry from what it claims to be as actual justice. Social justice is arbitrary and ever changing. Someone decides that some group of people are some how disadvantaged, oppressed, weak, incapable or any number of other factors that is not considered "the norm". Actions brought on under that banner to, potentially, improve that group's circumstances vary and are inconsistent if not often the exact opposite of what they wish to be by creating an environment of "woe is me" rather than encouraging them to move beyond it. There's a distinct line between justice, enforcing a penalty as even extreme as death, and social justice which by another extreme is going under the belief that just because a woman does not receive free birth control she's somehow disadvantaged and marginalized. They're not even close or in the same spectrum. Social justice is not any form of actual justice.

You are correct my recommendation is "a cure for a disease we do not have", but it follows the same lines as preventative medicine. People do not do proactive even relatively invasive procedures because they like to, no, they do them because they need to. As for the argument of "desensitization", if people are that skeptical of the police, then I have to question the police more than I do the objective set out through random screening. If anything I would argue the inverse is true that the American public is conditioned to assume authority is automatically bad, especially through countless lacking encounters with it.

No, this is not advocating a license to purchase, it is supervising and monitoring potentially unlawful activity and giving it a name associated for record or review. Again, where I am, this is normal. Nothing you purchase here you can do without being identified first. There's not even a scanning or screening process to log it within a database. It is done to simply validate you seem to be who you claim you are. In the case of electronic transactions, yes, I think identification needs to be dual authorized with it; if your card does not match at least in last name, something unusual is going on and should be logged that way.

"What about if you're borrowing someone else's card?" that's fine, but it goes under the transaction that way too and you need to explain to the cashier what is going on. From experience, I have to say you might be surprised how many criminals do not have a Plan B when you ask them something as simple as why their name doesn't match their registration for a vehicle and how rapidly their story falls apart. This is less complicated or intrusive than that, because it is only building a pattern of behavior to monitor for unusual trends, such as buying large quantities of chemicals and fertilizers at the same time or dynamite (which can be legally purchased in some states without special permit).

Another note, my remark about communism was to build off my anti-socialism stance, as even Karl Marx saw socialism as a step toward communism. I find both to be ideals that do not work for or benefit the American system. They might work in other places, but the United States is not those places. The philosophy of America is notoriously strange to foreigners and vice versa, but thus far it has proven to be a relatively efficient one, even with its flaws.

There's no argument that people center and right tend to back firearms, but I specifically noted a stereotype unique to one side that has no real comparison to the other. I do not understand your argument however, as my point was that the "most dangerous group of people" by basic understanding alone, the actual Alt-Right fringe, still have the smallest numbers and fewest incidents of carrying out or acting on that right now. Most of them are historical and as the numbers have shown, even the Ku Klux Klan which is openly white supremacist is dying in numbers and political power, as it has been for years. No less, I am not saying politics the further you get from center are always more extreme in violence, but that does indeed happen in the reflection and there is an apparent correlation. The Far Left has just become the most forward one with it currently and none of the left is making a dedicated enough effort to divorce themselves from it; they prefer to sympathize.

Privilege as people treat and act on is not the same as your example. There's a distinct push, to which I am referring to, that people think they are somehow disadvantaged by their skin, race, ethos, creed, orientation or whatever. I do not believe that or conscribe to that. Anyone could be the next Donald Trump as far as I am concerned; look at Mark Zuckerberg, an individual who had nothing and is politically left, owns and operates the massively successful Facebook and has a stake in political interests too. It would not be a surprise that one day he decides to run for office at some level and he began as a nobody. I believe with any amount of effort, luck and timing, people can succeed, regardless of their proposed disadvantage. It might not be to the levels of their desires, but that is their pursuit; they shouldn't be given it just because they started out with a hurdle they needed to leap.

Yes, I do hold what could be viewed as "extreme centrist beliefs", as odd as that is to say in this day and age, an that they tend to be very strong on whatever they are, even aspects of neutrality and I myself am not an easily compromising person as you have witnessed. I am fond of the notion of letting the system sort itself out, as it did with the example of handicapped people and obeying that directive over me, but at the same rate I do not think it would be a question in the first place. Why would you not assist those with legitimate disabilities? The line I draw is that people should do so out of their own will and want to, not be forced to comply with it. My same mentality goes forward on the example of transgender rights; if you're a man who is a woman, that is fine by me - be the best woman you can be. However, please respect that at least half of the population are not going to recognize that until the entire ordeal is done, even if that. It is also not a mandate that they even do so, at all.

I would like to see evidence of Nazi and White Nationalist propaganda being flown and displayed at these protests where violence breaks out. At most I have seen the Kekistani flag flown, but that is also a distinct trolling effort with its design specifically meant to elicit a response and provoke an emotion, as is their want. Some might fly it unironically as a secret symbol of their actual beliefs, taking to heart the notions of "Hitler did nothing wrong.", yet again I have not heard of that being the case and I believe that to be unlikely, or at least not a standard for all of the "Kekistanis" out there. To my awareness, even Pepe himself who has been regarded as a "hate symbol", has not become some standard and symbol of murder, oppression or abuse by data. On another and completely unrelated note since we are speaking about vexillology and symbology as a whole, Antifa's flags (as seen on their actual flag) are backward, which traditionally is symbolic of retreat; I am not sure if they realize that or it has some other meaning to them unbeknownst to me.

As for the Black Bloc themselves, they are one of the faces of the left that is receiving attention. If I were on the political left, I would be doing anything and everything to distance myself from them while condemning their acts of violence or destruction, not formulating excuses for why so many of these students, and professors too, are behaving so poorly that they appear to be little more than children in the throes of tantrum. This is too the same reason I condemn Dylan Roof, who held extreme right views, advocated violence, and acted on those violent motives, and why I too believe he should have been sentenced to death for his crimes. I admonish anyone who has similar goals, motives or desires on the right, in particular because I view that as my "home" so to speak given I lean politically that direction.

On another topic, I am aware democracy exists for that expressed reason of discussion, but when I view those questions I see them all as loaded and just as open to the same concern of slippery slope you posed. I will state again I believe a government with minimal but strong laws on the books is for the best. To use another example, I do not believe in hate crimes. Anyone willing to commit a crime against a black, a homosexual, a police officer or your run of the mill white person is just as despicable, no matter their motives; they are, no matter what, nothing but a criminal and enemy of the public. They should be universally held to one harsh standard. To bring this back around again to the example of "systematic disadvantage", I find the phrase even in and of itself to be purposefully executed. It, by language alone, infers there is something purposeful, meaningful and dedicated to preventing someone - in this case the disabled - from fulfilling a meaningful life of equal opportunity. That I do not agree with, as I do not think anyone should receive special incentives or protections by law; they should all be protected and held to the same standard.

If anything I think those outside the government should set the standard, as they in part do. If your priority is minorities, then act on that and lend them assistance through your want to help them and your belief they are lacking in whatever area you deem. It is not my task as someone unconvinced of it as priority to do so; you do not see me arguing that the United States should start a federally funded, monitored, protected social justice crusade about animal abuse, cruelty, ownership and maintenance that focuses on exotic animals, namely big cats who by numbers alone would be categorized as "marginalized" and at "systematic disadvantage". It is under my own volition and oath that I contribute to organizations dedicated to combatting it. An extreme and silly example, but I find that street to work both ways.

As for preventing voting fraud, it is not that difficult to scan and run a registry of active or inactive voters. It would need third party oversight and representatives from every running party to review and compare the results as a whole within the time limit; break your limit, lose your seat and your right to review. It is not that complicated or even expensive and it would mostly prevent anyone, no matter their political stance, from effectively skewing the results. No less, as it might be implied, I believe there should only be one form of voting machine, with the mechanisms there of considered and treated as secret, with those supervising it being held to the highest standards possible both in conduct and ability. No less, I believe the instances of found fraud should be prosecuted to the fullest extent, striking the offender first with the worst punishment and working backward from there.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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I'm certainly glad that the door was open for me to come here, but I'm a well educated woman with alot of advantages. I cant really blame a teenager fleeing the hell of El Salvador or the Mexican drug war for the safe, if illegal life here.

Not arguing, just clarifying -- I don't BLAME the teen either, it's not a question of blame or wrongdoing or whatever. No ill will whatsoever coming from me, I wish ALL folks the best, and particularly these folks as well. Illegal immigration is not a solution -- certainly not THE solution. We essentially force that teen to live off the grid, in fear, unable to earn an actual paycheck (and ill-equipped to even try) and so obligated to manual and/or illegal labor, whose only steady lifeline is to file for tax credits with a forged or stolen SSN. Like.... we are directly incentivizing that. Could go further but it starts to sound incredibly racist. My point is: illegal immigration is very bad, and I don't just mean for Americans. I mean for the people stuck in it.

We have to do better, and we can't do better until we establish control. Thus, wall, door, reform. I consider it morally essential.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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@mdk The likelyhood is that living off grid ect is better than what they fled. If that weren't the case people wouldn't keep coming. A sane and moral response is increasing efforts to address the problem down stream. There aren't easy answers to this problem which is what the build a wall and deport them all crowd refuses to see.

A country has the right to control its borders and set its own immigration policy but what is legal and what is moral are not always the same thing.

It would certainly make me happier if there were a reasonable legal way for people in these terrible situations to find a measure of sanctuary.
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