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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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I thought you hated 2D Sonic?


I don't hate it. I have a complicated relationship with it. Similar in that way to Arin, but a totally different kind. The 3d games were brilliant for their time, I just don't like that people want to throw out everything after, even the few amazing games (which always end up getting the worst reception for some reason, not counting 06) and want to go back to games that were very clearly products of their era and not "timeless" in the sense that they can just keep being remade. I also really don't like the idea of trying to mix 2d and 3d Sonics, ESPECiALLY the way Generations did it, and don't like how many times they've re-released the same fucking things over and over again to cash in on the crowd of morons who think anything after 3 is bad just because it's not a fucking Genesis game. I don't like that Mania is reusing levels from the old games, but from what I've seen so far, there's a very real possibility that they made it plot relevant, which is the only way they could possibly justify that shit, and they clearly made them from the ground up, changing them at least slightly each time. I like the barely 3d emerald game, though I dislike that there's a medal system with the old terrible orbs minigame. I'm incredibly worried that they did something with the plot changing based on medals, and I'm worried that they might have tried too hard and done to the Super Emeralds what Generations did to the canons. (I do not know if the Super Emeralds are actually in Mania, so that's not a spoiler to mention.) I hate that the best games always get the worst feedback from the "fans," and the good or decent games always get held up to a perfect standard of "what 3d Sonic should be" when they're NOT among the best of them and/or half of them are just 2d with 3d models *cough colors cough*. I don't like that they're making Mania be directly after 3, not counting CD's ambiguous placement, because that just makes the canon lines even more blurred and confusing. The reason I want Mania so badly is BECAUSE I'm so distrustful of it. Having been writing Torn, basically Sonic fanfiction, for at this point the vast majority of my lifespan, I'm one of the few people who the timelines and canon lines really matter to, and Mania has this perfect opportunity to either destroy them entirely or make them fit again after Generations fucked everything up. I don't think GG are going to do the plot justice since it's fucking Arin playing, and unlike the first 3 games the plot is complicated enough to need hands-on experience for. I also dislike that they chose to make a 2d game that's just a better resolution version of a game that belongs on the Genesis when they could have been working on a new, bugless, good 3d game or another fucking Sonic Chronicle game, or A FUCKING SONIC BATTLE 2, or remastering the last two Riders games since they banked them on shitty tech that ruins the games when Riders was one of the best racing games ever, or fucking making Sonic's Sister 1X years after it was cancelled, or any other new things they could do to move forward, rather than just a new Sonic 3 bumped up and given a plot fitting of a newer game. There are just so many missed opportunities that they didn't do in order to appease the people who only like Sonic because their nostalgia is overwhelming or because they really want mario but just don't think mario maker is fast enough. I'm super psyched about the new resolution sprites as someone who used to do sprites (poorly) and probably will go back to the Middle Ground at some point, but the fact that they were made by an official team is bothersome. There's a lot of complicated shit between me and 2d Sonic, especially Mania.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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@DarkwolfX37

You run into the issue that this team probably wouldn't be making anything if Mania hadn't been conceived. One thing I think we can agree with is that this group has a ton of talent, but that is because they were hand picked for their ability to specifically make 2D Genesis-era Sonic games. They don't make 3D ones because that's not their forte. And while there definitely are great 3D Sonic games, the 2D formula with "outdated graphics" works because it's not a matter of timeframe, but rather a genre in and of itself.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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@DarkwolfX37

You run into the issue that this team probably wouldn't be making anything if Mania hadn't been conceived. One thing I think we can agree with is that this group has a ton of talent, but that is because they were hand picked for their ability to specifically make 2D Genesis-era Sonic games. They don't make 3D ones because that's not their forte. And while there definitely are great 3D Sonic games, the 2D formula with "outdated graphics" works because it's not a matter of timeframe, but rather a genre in and of itself.


Yeah.
It's not even that the graphics are outdated. It's that there's no gameplay additions. There's no new factor, like the first three games did with the new shields and adding knuckles. The updated sprites is something great and amazing, and moreso when you know how hard they are to make. If they added a new core mechanic, not counting the bonus emerald stages, then at least that would be progress for the formula. Generally being formulaic is an inherently bad thing and there's a reason for that.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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Yeah.
It's not even that the graphics are outdated. It's that there's no gameplay additions. There's no new factor, like the first three games did with the new shields and adding knuckles. The updated sprites is something great and amazing, and moreso when you know how hard they are to make. If they added a new core mechanic, not counting the bonus emerald stages, then at least that would be progress for the formula. Generally being formulaic is an inherently bad thing and there's a reason for that.


They added the drop-dash. Personally, what I'm hoping for is for Sega to separate the 2D and 3D lines so they can add a new mechanic every game or so in the 2D games and keep that genre going, while they can do whatever they feel works in the 3D line, be it Boost or some other mechanic (personally, I'd love a new SA1-esque overworld).
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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<Snipped quote by DarkwolfX37>

They added the drop-dash. Personally, what I'm hoping for is for Sega to separate the 2D and 3D lines so they can add a new mechanic every game or so in the 2D games and keep that genre going, while they can do whatever they feel works in the 3D line, be it Boost or some other mechanic (personally, I'd love a new SA1-esque overworld).


GOOD.
And yes, exactly. Forces has the chance to fix the canon lines but even that's gonna take some fuckery since Generations didn't use Nega and he's the only one other than Blaze to travel both time and dimensions, and if they do what they should and literally make 2d a 2d dimension that was only 3d at all in the 3d dimension then they can set things up really well. Though overworlds have been the bane of every game since A1 that had them. 06, Unleashed... Hell the version of Unleashed with an overworld isn't worth playing even though Unleashed is a good game.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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GOOD.
And yes, exactly. Forces has the chance to fix the canon lines but even that's gonna take some fuckery since Generations didn't use Nega and he's the only one other than Blaze to travel both time and dimensions, and if they do what they should and literally make 2d a 2d dimension that was only 3d at all in the 3d dimension then they can set things up really well. Though overworlds have been the bane of every game since A1 that had them. 06, Unleashed... Hell the version of Unleashed with an overworld isn't worth playing even though Unleashed is a good game.


But they've proven that overworlds can work. SA1 is a mixed bag for most people (I really liked it), but everyone likes the Sonic Jam overworld. You have the Sonic Utopia, the fan made open world Sonic game that everyone really likes (also Sonic Robo Blast). They even managed to put Sonic in Zelda for the Sonic Lost World DLC (which, granted, is more of an open-world style rather than an overworld, but the two are similar enough to lump together). The problem is that every game that attempted the overworld after SA1 was a bad game in general, which isn't directly tied to the overworld itself.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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Oh gods Mania has one of the worst levels from the first three games in it.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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Oh gods Mania has one of the worst levels from the first three games in it.


Ssh. I know it's probably Metropolis and that's painful, but no spoilers.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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Ssh. I know it's probably Metropolis and that's painful, but no spoilers.


Not it's worse.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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Not it's worse.


Doesn't exist. Metropolis is definitely the worst.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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Doesn't exist. Metropolis is definitely the worst.


No because the level is even worse remade.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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No because the level is even worse remade.


Worse as in poorly designed or worse as in annoying?
I severely hope it's not Mystic Cave.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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Worse as in poorly designed or worse as in annoying?
I severely hope it's not Mystic Cave.


Worse as in annoying.
It's not.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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Worse as in annoying.
It's not.


I prefer annoying over poorly designed, not that there are too many of those.
If you mean Sandopolis, I already know about that level. I'll disagree if you mean Hilltop, because that's one of the best stages in Sonic 2. Oil Ocean, I can kind of agree but am ambivalent. Starlight, also kind of agree. Marble Zone? Sure, it's slow. Marble Garden? No way; that stage rocked.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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<Snipped quote by DarkwolfX37>

I prefer annoying over poorly designed, not that there are too many of those.
If you mean Sandopolis, I already know about that level. I'll disagree if you mean Hilltop, because that's one of the best stages in Sonic 2. Oil Ocean, I can kind of agree but am ambivalent. Starlight, also kind of agree. Marble Zone? Sure, it's slow. Marble Garden? No way; that stage rocked.


None of those.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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None of those.


I'm at a loss, then. Sandopolis is pretty annoying though.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by DarkwolfX37
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I'm at a loss, then. Sandopolis is pretty annoying though.


Mhm.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Multifarious
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Welcome me home plz. I wanna get started tonight.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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Welcome home.


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