[OOC] Precipice of War - The Big Leagues of NRP (Only generous tippers need apply)

[SgtEasy]

It seems as though @asuraaa has been absent for quite some time so I'll work around the bio. Reading through @Vilageidiotx's options, I feel as though option 1 1/2 is a little better. I'm altering the history a bit with the Algerians recognise they need a little bit of help trying to get their country up and running with a modern economy and standards, even if it was with the help of the imperialist bastards who took them over. Instead, these fair religious nationalists want another establishment of an Islamic Caliphate but do not forcibly convert people who are staying as long as Islam is the main religion in the country.

I want to take the stance of a more moderate Islamic takeover, with more emphasis on creation of an Islamic Caliphate with a caliph at their lead but with more Algerian nationalism. They have more ties to the Arab world but still recognise their somewhat significant presence in Africa.

Basically I want an excuse to play a modern Caliphate with moderate Muslims at its lead. I just found it quite interesting. Any thoughts or contradictions before I move on to making a CS?

[Letter Bee]

@SgtEasy, What about followers of Muhammad Abduh?

[SgtEasy]

@SgtEasy, What about followers of Muhammad Abduh?

@Letter Bee

The Algerians could probably use some of his teachings (I like the idea of it) but I am unsure if his followers ever had a significant enough base within Algeria to be a large part of the nationalist movement. They could have influenced though and I'll certainly encompass some of his ideas within the new caliphate (a full adoption of his ideas is appealing though. Ill ponder a little more on it).

Thanks for the idea Bee :)

Edit: I assume that the nationalists could have taken over as early as 1946 when the Old French Republicans were repelled by Algerian nationalists, showing an already upwards trend of nationalism within the former protectorate. I think I can assume that of asuraaa's CS

Second edit: More I ponder on this CS, the more I imagine a somewhat open minded Algeria based on Abduh's thought. A country with some what progressive and forward thinking ideals in a world full of stagnant empires. These ideals would of course cause strife amd divide im the Caliphate, mainly between the modernists and the traditionalists and everyone in between. The country will not be a perfect utopia by any means

[Vilageidiotx]

I got three questions that I might want an opinion on:

1) How large would be the white minority (aka Germans) in West Africa? Assuming that it has had about twenty years of relative peace and prosperity.

@NecroKnight

Pretty small. One hundred thousand would be pushing it. Historically the Germans really didn't do a lot of African colonization, so you aren't necessarily looking at a population like Rhodesia. To get to a number like 100,000 you're going to do some fancy math, like implying some people fled to Kamerun after the war and that there were generous land offers to the soldiers who fought for the Germans there. I say this because the historical white population of Kamerun was 1,643. You might also have a small British population in Nigeria but it looks like colonial Nigeria only historically had enough whites to fill administrative posts, and I suspect they would have left or been chased out after German occupation.

So yeh, you're going to be in a tight spot. Probably won't be able to be as harsh as Rhodesia. You'll want to do something like bring Christian natives into the fold and made them equals in government in order to keep the balance.

2) is it okay if German, started out as official language - is mostly nowadays used only in politics and perhaps in the upper echelons of the military and business? Namely banks. Also the white population.

@NecroKnight

Yes, though official doesn't mean everyone actually speaks it.

3) Since it's 1960-ish - have most of the colonial powers managed to hold onto their colonies? Or have they mostly fought against their colonial occupiers and later turned into dictatorships?

@NecroKnight

Most have broken away. That's been our policy since it helps clean up the map, gives us more countries to RP, and avoids the problem of flakes taking up massive Empires and doing nothing with them.

It seems as though @asuraaa has been absent for quite some time so I'll work around the bio. Reading through @Vilageidiotx's options, I feel as though option 1 1/2 is a little better. I'm altering the history a bit with the Algerians recognise they need a little bit of help trying to get their country up and running with a modern economy and standards, even if it was with the help of the imperialist bastards who took them over. Instead, these fair religious nationalists want another establishment of an Islamic Caliphate but do not forcibly convert people who are staying as long as Islam is the main religion in the country.

I want to take the stance of a more moderate Islamic takeover, with more emphasis on creation of an Islamic Caliphate with a caliph at their lead but with more Algerian nationalism. They have more ties to the Arab world but still recognise their somewhat significant presence in Africa.

Basically I want an excuse to play a modern Caliphate with moderate Muslims at its lead. I just found it quite interesting. Any thoughts or contradictions before I move on to making a CS?

@SgtEasy

Hate to be a bummer but I'm not sure it'd be sensible for them to claim a Caliphate. The reason being is that the Ottoman Sultan is already recognized by the Sunni's as Caliph. The Algerians disputing this would probably get them branded Kharijites.

[NecroKnight]

@Vilageidiotx

Alright. I had in mind creating something is opposite of an apartheid. Namely since my 'Duke' in question - never had the manpower or support of enough whites to create an Apartheid-like system.

Is that reasonable?

(I have always imagined, what would a colony look like - if the Administration wasn't a bag of dickweeds on the locals and actually didn't smash the aparatus when they left)

[Vilageidiotx]

@Vilageidiotx

Alright. I had in mind creating something is opposite of an apartheid. Namely since my 'Duke' in question - never had the manpower or support of enough whites to create an Apartheid-like system.

Is that reasonable?

(I have always imagined, what would a colony look like - if the Administration wasn't a bag of dickweeds on the locals and actually didn't smash the aparatus when they left)

@NecroKnight

It'd be reasonable. Numbers would pretty much require you to bring natives into the process of government.

[NecroKnight]

@Vilageidiotx

0_0. Humm. Checked this out - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countri…

Jumping weasels on the back of a monkey. I think I might have to give Northern Nigeria (the more Islamic part) up - perhaps as a 'restored' region. And namely make due with Cameroon, Togoland and Southern Nigeria, also parts of France Gabon. Which...ohhh...boy. Will bring my population up already to 15 million. Yeah, I think - having a mandatory bread & circus + mandatory improvement of the local population a must.

Especially, if I had done it without much homeland support.

[Vilageidiotx]

@Vilageidiotx

0_0. Humm. Checked this out - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countri…

Jumping weasels on the back of a monkey. I think I might have to give Northern Nigeria (the more Islamic part) up - perhaps as a 'restored' region. And namely make due with Cameroon, Togoland and Southern Nigeria, also parts of France Gabon. Which...ohhh...boy. Will bring my population up already to 15 million. Yeah, I think - having a mandatory bread & circus + mandatory improvement of the local population a must.

Especially, if I had done it without much homeland support.

@NecroKnight

The useful thing you'll have going for you is that the natives in your country won't necessarily belong to the same culture. Here's a cultural map of Africa that might be useful (warning, it's big). Imma put this map in the Character Section 0th post where we have a lot of reference material stored up. Anyway, playing these groups against one another, perhaps favoring one or two in co-government with the Germans, will give you a boost. This was a common tactic among European colonizers. One of the most infamous examples being the Belgian use of the Tutsi's as co-rulers in Rwanda at the expense of the Hutu, which created the foundation for the Rwandan genocide later on in the nineties.

Also, weird request, but since you plan on taking southern Nigeria, make use of Port Harcourt. I just say this because Port Harcourt was an important place during the original PoW and it's nice seeing the old haunts make a come back. Not as you capital of course, that'll be either Doala or Buea.

[NecroKnight]

@Vilageidiotx

Well, as I mentioned in my sheet. The ruling Duke took that idea and made it almost national policy.

Namely the Nigerians being the farmers and Cameruns being the industrial.

Although, he set certain ports in Nigeria - while set up banks in Camerun...as well as having the military be mostly in the Kamerun region.

So yeah. Kamerunians might have power - although it is more subtle. Since Duke Hurst made it - so one side wouldn't suddenly go mad on the other - since he needs both to prepare for the Afrikan Kaiser...or that was his plan.

[Vilageidiotx]

@Vilageidiotx

Well, as I mentioned in my sheet. The ruling Duke took that idea and made it almost national policy.

Namely the Nigerians being the farmers and Cameruns being the industrial.

Although, he set certain ports in Nigeria - while set up banks in Camerun...as well as having the military be mostly in the Kamerun region.

So yeah. Kamerunians might have power - although it is more subtle. Since Duke Hurst made it - so one side wouldn't suddenly go mad on the other - since he needs both to prepare for the Afrikan Kaiser...or that was his plan.

@NecroKnight

Those are the European border divisions you are talking about, I mean you want to pick favored peoples out of the native cultural divisions.

Your native collaborators are probably going to be the Duala people in Kamerun and the Yoruba in Nigeria. If you drop the Islamic north that'd make sense, but if you decide to include them you'd need to work out some special relationship with the Emirs up there.

Either way, you can't afford to reign heavy handed like a Colonial government, and you won't have the white muscle to force Apartheid policies like Rhodesia. You're gonna need to have African confederates, but in order to do that and maintain German cultural dominance, you'll need to make sure that those confederates are only some of the native peoples, since bringing all native peoples into equal status government would be the end of white control. Gotta play Germans on top, allied tribes just a little below that, and the rest down on the bottom.

Natural that means your hinterlands should be politically messy and hotbeds of dissent and ill rule, while your coasts are the gleaming Neues Deutschland that you want it to be, with African beer halls and cool shit like that.

I don't mean to sound pedantic btw. All these details seem irrelevant on the surface, but believe me, paying attention to them will make your nation feel real. Plus it gives you shit to write about.

[Letter Bee]

@NecroKnight, I agree with @Vilageidiotx. Also, question; what is your nation's opinion on Syndicalism? I am sure they'd hate it, but will they still trade with countries that profess Syndicalism?

[NecroKnight]

@Letter Bee

Read it up. Sounds a bit like communism in my regard.

@Vilageidiotx

Interesting. So your suggesting - that I divide up my lands a bit, so they in-essence - form multiple confederations. In essence, 'restoring' many tribes to their lands - but some tribes having better access to goods than others?

[Letter Bee]

@Letter Bee

Read it up. Sounds a bit like communism in my regard.

@NecroKnight

It is, but Syndicalism is much older and it allows for the continued existence of business and even private property; the latter two just has to be owned by the workers. Point is, though, the Philippines is going to develop 'Special Economic Zones' where foreign traders can do capitalist-esque business; it's already been foreshadowed. Would Kamerun be interested in trading in said SEZs?

Same for the Kaiser, @Shyri.

[Vilageidiotx]

@Letter Bee

Read it up. Sounds a bit like communism in my regard.

@Vilageidiotx

Interesting. So your suggesting - that I divide up my lands a bit, so they in-essence - form multiple confederations. In essence, 'restoring' many tribes to their lands - but some tribes having better access to goods than others?

@NecroKnight

Not quite that drastic. You'll probably want to divide it into administrative divisions like any other country, but not into a full federation.

What I'm talking about is the de facto operations of the society itself, not it's de jure constitutional makeup. You have areas along the coast with meaningful German minorities who live relatively well, surrounded by natives groups (Yoruba in Lagos, Duala in Douala) who have access to at least a middle class lifestyle and therefore tend to be conservative backers of the German government, though any modern reformers or leftists would come from this group as well as a result of education. The rural parts of you country would be traditionally governed, not invested in the government and economic life of the country, and not especially germanized. These people would be nominally part of your state, providing the manpower in the agriculture and raw resource economies, but they'd still be living traditionally for the most part and wouldn't be especially loyal.

[NecroKnight]

@Vilageidiotx

Hmm. Yeah. I like that sort of idea - I don't want to go totally, secret-secret divide and conquer. I read that what German colonies were, had a more merchandile approach to them.

The Germans minority/nobility would want a nice living, but wouldn't be overly dick-ish - since they know, they'd be heavily outnumbered. Some members of the Yoruba/Duala could maybe be part of the nobility? As maybe black gentry - back when their forefathers served in the Colonial armies and were rewarded for their loyalty?

And yeah - the rural parts could remain rural. Maybe having some mines or an oil-well or two. The usual aid-package or local economic boost to please the usual chiefs. But if they want remain rural - they can do so.

[NecroKnight]

@Vilageidiotx

Hmm. Since urban life is more prosperous and wealthier - how big would the Yoruba/Duala percentage be? Would they constitute maybe 25% of the total population? 45%?

[SgtEasy]

<Snipped quote by SgtEasy>

Hate to be a bummer but I'm not sure it'd be sensible for them to claim a Caliphate. The reason being is that the Ottoman Sultan is already recognized by the Sunni's as Caliph. The Algerians disputing this would probably get them branded Kharijites.

@Vilageidiotx

Aw shite, I forgot about the Ottomans. Ok, I'll settle for an Islamic state then, I'll get on to working on a CS. Not too major of a change that I'll have to rewrite a lot of the CS I've currently written

[Letter Bee]

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

Aw shite, I forgot about the Ottomans. Ok, I'll settle for an Islamic state then, I'll get on to working on a CS. Not too major of a change that I'll have to rewrite a lot of the CS I've currently written

@SgtEasy

I am also planning to establish that the Muslims in my country (Philippines) shifted allegiance to the Hashemites in Mecca; that might be relevant if you want to defy the Ottomans.

[NecroKnight]

@Shyri

So, is it possible. That the Kaiser declared my Oberst Hurst - Duke and have him create a Duchy in West Afrika? Since I assume, the other alternative was having a second Afrikan Kaiser or likely all of the German colonies joining the Afrikan Kaiser? Or rather, having him to it regardless - but this way he'd have some sort of Imperial legitimacy.

[Vilageidiotx]

@Vilageidiotx

Hmm. Since urban life is more prosperous and wealthier - how big would the Yoruba/Duala percentage be? Would they constitute maybe 25% of the total population? 45%?

@NecroKnight

I'd suspect they won't be much different than IRL. The Duala aren't a big group, but they are well placed, so you're looking at maybe a half million people there. The Yoruba are a pretty big group, 20% of Nigeria, which at this point should mean eight million.