Hidden 6 yrs ago 6 yrs ago Post by Rethel34
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EDITED (NOTE: Nothing in this thread is necessarily set in stone. Anything you think is out of place, let me know and I'll take it into consideration. I'll do my best to explain the reasons behind anything I implement, but if you disagree, please inform me as to why. If I suggest a counter argument, please do not think I am shutting your idea down, but simply trying to elaborate on my reasons where I may have lacked in my former explanation. Also note that some of these details, even some GMs might not care for, but at the development level, I have to scrutinize every detail of this game to ensure proper flow for the most enjoyable game.)

So, the keyword in the title is "Building". In other words, I need assistance building the system before I can use it. Of course, I don't really have any major plans to GM an RP of this system in the near future. I'm currently switching between working midnights and working days about every couple days, and frankly, it's quite taxing.

First order of business is mechanics. Yes, it is using a d20 system. HOWEVER, this does not mean it inherently translates directly from Pathfinder/D&D into this game. When I first began this escapade back when Breath of the Wild was initially revealed, I thought such a translation might be about all I'd do, write up some races, implement the appropriate items, and go from there playing games in Hyrule. Unfortunately, I realized while attempting to develop this system that the lore of Hyrule itself would require something a little more to be an accurate representation.

So I have decided that I must turn to other members of the Legend of Zelda fanbase, along with other Roleplay fanatics, in order to make this system the best it can be. Anyone who has ideas is more than welcome to join in the discussion and help out.




There is still a great deal more to be done, but this at least gives the major idea thus far.
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Though it may come as a bit of a surprise, this topic is certainly in my sphere of interest.

Gotta head out in a few minutes, but I do have to ask this- you've mentioned DnD/Pathfinder, but how familiar are you with world of darkness? I can't help but note that WoD also has nine stats (they are divided three to each social, mental and physical), not to mention they also have a separate set of health boxes vaguely reminiscent of the hearts bars in Zelda games. They also have resource stats as well, such as mana (for mages at least, it has other names for other classes).

I also see you posted this on another board as well, do you have any preference in which thread I reply to? XD
1x Laugh Laugh
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I'll admit I'm not familiar with World of Darkness. I was starting with Pathfinder/DnD as a base simply due to it being the most well-known d20 tabletop system. My RL friends and I have used a number of systems in the past . . . it's odd that this one didn't come up. I'll have to look more into it to see how that works in comparison to what I want to do.
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Okay, so while trying to brainstorm about these Ability Scores, I came up with some ideas, and I'll list their current possible functions below. While the Triangle of Power is practically a no-brainer, the other two are not quite so easy.

TRIANGLE OF POWER
Power - Used in calculating physical damage, the amount of weight the character can lift, and the distance the character can throw an object.
Reflex - Used when determining Initiative, when attempting to land a hit (particularly with ranged weapons like bows), and in determining a character's ability to avoid attacks.
Endurance - Used for determining a character's Heart and Stamina, as well as the character's ability to resist poisons relating to the Triangle of Power, Combat Maneuvers, and the like.

TRIANGLE OF WISDOM
Wisdom - High Wisdom scores increase the number of Spells known for spellcasters of all kinds (also used by Alchemists and Psychics [Zelda had some Psychic abilities, like telepathic communication, so please do not try the "Psychic has no place" argument on me] for their Extracts and Powers in the same way); Wisdom also is used when calculating magical damage, and is also used for a number of Skills.
Psyche - High Psyche scores increase the number of Languages a character knows, as well as serving as the base Ability Score for Knowledge-based Skills; Psyche is also used when calculating damage for Psychic Powers.
Spirit - Used for determining a character's Magic Points (Used for Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Extracts, and Psychic Powers), and also Heart Points for Undead beings; Spirit also is used for resisting poisons relating to the Triangle of Wisdom, as well as harmful Spells.

TRIANGLE OF COURAGE
Courage - Used for resisting intimidation and fear effects, and also for granting bonuses when Hero Points (I could spend forever trying to explain this to those who are unfamiliar, but I feel this link does a much better job than I would) are spent.
Character - Used when trying to influence others, hide one's presence, lead anything from a small band of adventurers to a grand army, and can even increase the number of Hero Points gained.
Will - Used when resisting poisons relating to the Triangle of Courage, as well as harmful Psychic Powers; Will can also be used to resist non-intimidation or -fear effects from Character-related effects.

In addition, I'm considering having Feats which, at a cost (Likely in Stamina or perhaps even Heart Points) and under the correct circumstances (a.k.a. a crapton of prerequisites because it's kinda OP), allow you to temporarily use the Ability Scores from one Triangle in place of the scores from another Triangle, in which Courage, Wisdom, and Power would be interchangeable, likewise for Reflex, Psyche, and Character, and again for Endurance, Spirit, and Will.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Jerkchicken
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I'm gonna say you're going about it the wrong way, Zelda doesn't lend itself to being adapted to stat oriented roleplaying game, especially something derived from D&D/PF.

To me at least, part of the core essence of Zelda is the game mechanics which is the series's gameplay loop. Link's progression of power is literally externalized to objects you collect which are then used to open up new areas and or to solve the puzzle gimmick in the dungeons. Even the things that like stats such as hearts, magic, stamina are all beholden to being increased with objects.

Your current approach of nine stats keyed to each tri-force part is needlessly complicated and kinda ticky-tacky. While I'm not against like complicated presentations in games, here's there's too much going on that could be better done with like derived stats or rolled up into a singular stat.

But again, zelda is all about progression by exploring and finding items which augment your abilities along with collectables like heart containers to boost your more stat like stuff. The easiest way to go about this is to do low number of stats that can be built to represent archetypes and then base the game around collecting stuff that would be appropriate to the characters.
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Zelda doesn't lend itself to being adapted to stat oriented roleplaying game

True that it does not inherently do this, which is part of the challenge, though I have managed an alpha stage using D&D mechanics that players seem to have enjoyed. There were just some holes that I've been needing to fix.

Link's progression of power is literally externalized to objects you collect

And this same thought had occurred to me in my earlier stages of considering this system. Though this doesn't inherently fix the problem, we aren't necessarily going to play as Link in this system. In fact, in any game I GM, no one will be, because I find ways to have adventures that do not involve Link. Though I realize that doesn't fix our problem, there is one Zelda game in which your statement is not 100% true, despite it frequently being looked down upon in the modern era: Adventure of Link. In this game it was actually possible for Link to gain Experience and Level Up through it. This alone was the loophole I needed to give me the thought to pursue such a goal.

Your current approach of nine stats keyed to each tri-force part is needlessly complicated and kinda ticky-tacky.

While I might agree if I weren't so deep in the creation of this system, I have actually found it may be more necessary than you think. Allow me to explain. When a character comes in contact with the full Triforce without earning it, or without the perfect balance and purity of character with which to obtain it, it shatters into three, Power, Wisdom, and Courage, as you likely already know. The idea, to keep things perfectly fair, is that when a character touches the complete Triforce, be it a player or an NPC, the "Goddesses" (a.k.a. the GM) would then evaluate the characters of the game. Then, based on the stat totals in each Triangle, the Triforce is scattered with the appropriate pieces given to the appropriate characters. To avoid this, the GM could simply place the Triforce off-limits. However, as the designer, I have to keep in mind the lore of the realm I am building this around, and whatever possibilities may arise.

I will say, I did expect a mixed response from people. Some would rather play Pathfinder, some would rather play Zelda, and while some like both, they wouldn't want the two to be mixed. However, others I know do seem to truly find the idea interesting and enjoyable. If, even after me explaining my side as to why the idea exists (which I will admit, I don't always do the best job at, especially up front), you still think something should be changed, let me know why. We're looking at this currently trying to crawl out of the alpha stages, so there's still room for change.
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First post updated to include some of my later clarifications and ideas.
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Couple of questions:

1) Are you looking to build a new system entirely or primarily reskinning DnD with essentially a Hyrule campaign guide with a few minor tweaks and house rules to give it the appropriate flavor for the world?

2) How set are you on making it a D20 based system? As in, are you open to suggestions and ideas regarding other tabletop systems? I'll get back to that in a couple paragraphs most likely, but to state it briefly- I'm not convinced you might not be better off looking to WoD or Shadowrun for a potential guide to dice structure, mostly in the area of accumulated successes/degree of success via dice pools as opposed to single-die boolean success.




So, I like some of what I see, though I'm not 100% sold on the ability scores/stats so far. I think I can understand where @Jerkchicken was going with the idea of too many stats and the suggestion for a greater focus on derived stats. I also kinda think you've tried to go a bit far with the number of stats. While I like the method thematically, it does feel like some of your stats are somewhat redundant or might be better as derivative stats. For instance, I dunno that I feel like "Psyche" and "Wisdom" as you have made them are really necessary as two different things, with the same applying to "Courage" and "will"- they just feel a little like you were forcing yourself to complete a pattern fist and create balanced mechanics second.

That being said, I have seen systems that have nine base stats before. I brought up WoD because it is a system that has three main categories of attributes, with three different attributed in each. However, they have them all streamlined to follow a particular pattern. They have a mental, physical and social block of stats, each with a power, finesse and defensive based trait which ends up making it mesh fairly well and keep some measure of balance (Intelligence, Wits, Resolve vs. Strength, Dex, Stamina vs. Presence, Manipulation, Composure). In WoD, each individual attribute has an effective equivalent attributes in the other two main categories.




Also, since I know I personally don't really like people picking apart my ideas without offering any potential suggestions for how they might like to see things go, I tried brainstorming up my own potential set of attributes and turning them into a quickly-made picture:

So, as you can see, I basically just used the basic DnD stats and reorganized them. I do think some of their naming and descriptions are problematic and would need to be tweaked, though the essence of their purpose would remain the same. Basically, at each corner I have a sorta "power" stat, if you will- the sort you would likely use when you are actively asserting that part of your personality. At each junction of two pieces of the triforce I put the more "defense"-oriented stats. Then, within each triangle is where I placed all the main derived stats, rather than giving them their own separate stat.

So, base stat summary would be something along the lines of:

Str- (power) Raw physical prowess here. Seems a fairly no-brainer for using brute force.

Cha- (courage) Force of personality/personal character- the primary thing you rely on for inspiring others or other social situations where the means of taking command of the situation isn't just a matter of bashing everyone else over the head.

Int- (wisdom) Aiming for magical talent here, as well as knowledge.

Wis- (junction of courage and wisdom) This feels like it could appropriately function pretty much as in DnD- your resistance against both fear, but also mental-fuckery. It would likely need to be renamed, but the essence still kept the same.

Dex- (junction of wisdom and power) Leaning more towards the reflex angle here, this seems like a good combination of both the quick thinking needed to get out of the way as well as the physical capability to follow through.

Con- (junction of power and courage) There's more to getting back on your feat after you have being smashed to the ground than just not dying (though that is certainly a part of it). It is a combination of being able to take a hit and also the courage to stand back up and and potentially take another.

Then, there are my derived stats suggestions:

Hearts- (str/dex/con)- basically just all your major physical attributes determining your HP.

Magic- (int/wis/dex)- your quick thinking, mental resilience and sheer magical talent giving you a magic meter.

Hero Points- (cha/con/wis)- might wanna retool the hero point system, though overall I think it is pretty neat. These seem like a good resource to have to let your character perform those above-average things that normal non-heroes just don't do on a regular basis. If you are into Shadowrun, this is effectively what they would call "edge", or alternatively the "willpower" mechanic from WoD.

Stamina- Anyone who had done a major exam, run a few miles in gym or given a major presentation in front of a group of people knows that there are a lot of ways to leave yourself completely drained and utterly exhausted. I like to think of stamina as a resource that any sort of activity might potentially deplete, hence why it seems like a great stat to have derived from all three main defensive attributes.

Then, you would also neatly have a "Power", "Wisdom" and "Courage" score, in case the triforce did come up as very relative for determining who would be allocated each piece without having to make all the categories strictly mutually exclusive.




I also do want to comment briefly on attribute numbers. I have always kinda thought that DnD has needlessly inflated numbers when it comes to attributes. Sorta thing I've referred to as "Yugioh syndrome". Basically, in the Yugioh card game, you can categorically cut off the last two zeroes from every card and life total and the game will remain completely unchanged other than the numbers not looking as impressively inflated (card game had been around long enough I'm sure there's a "50" somewhere in the game, but we aren't gunna get pedantic here). Basically, when it comes to attributes in DnD, the number isn't super important- the only thing that really matters is the modifier. Odd numbers might as well not exist for how relevant they are. Basically, if you subtract ten from every attribute, divide by two and round down the game remains unchanged. Your 18str is really a +4str, your 12int is really a +1int. I do realize negative modifiers exist, though realistically they aren't super important and tend to be more of a thing best left in the realm of the minmaxers anyways.

With that in mind, I would have most stats range by default from 1-5, meaning even if you do something like completely dump on all physical attributes, you will always start with three hearts- which just sorta seems right to me for a Zelda game.




Also, I like the idea that there should be more of a focus on getting items, due to the heavy reliance on them to get tasks done throughout the Zelda franchise. To that extent, I might suggest putting a bigger focus on creating/crafting items and having those sort of take the place of where skills would be. For instance, rather than strength plus your ranks in climb, you might be looking to do strength plus the rating of your grappling hook. That seems like it might be a nice middle ground between more traditional DnD mechanics and the traditional Zelda gameplay.
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@0 Azzy 0 You've certainly given me quite a bit to think about. I'll try to respond in the most effective way I can. But before I get to all that, thanks for the massive amount of insight. It's mind-blowing to have gotten a response like this.

I guess answering one question would require answering the other for the first chunk of your post, so I guess I'll try to answer them in one paragraph. The idea at first was a simple reskin of D&D with house rules. However, as I had looked deeper, I wasn't entirely convinced that would be the best thing to do, so as a result, it may become a completely new system, and even as far as d20 goes, I gravitate toward it because it is a player-friendly system that many people would be familiar with. That's not to say I'm *against* changing it up from the d20, but rather that it's simply the one I find most appealing. However, functionally, as you have demonstrated rather well, there are other options that may work better. Of course, until I have tested all my different options, I suppose it is rather difficult to determine which method would be most effective.

I do want to apologize for earlier. I wasn't trying to make it sound so much like I was trying to shut down what @Jerkchicken was suggesting. I had just realized at that time that I had a few holes in my explanation that needed filling, and I quickly began looking for ways I might be able to improve and reduce the number of stats, as I know it does seem like overkill to have nine of them. Luckily, I now have a possible solution, which I will address here in a moment.

Referencing your particular example, Psyche was probably entirely the wrong word for it. I probably should have stuck with Intelligence, as, for the most part, it is what the stat was intended to be the most representative of. However, I will admit that you are right, I was thinking a bit more along the lines of making a pattern and trying to fill in the blanks.

In a sense, I did try to make the stats fit the same thing you described about WoD, but I know it fell short, as the only stats that truly fit that pattern correctly may have been Endurance, Spirit, and Will. It may actually be able to fit that pattern correctly if I were to attempt to work toward making the Triangles of Wisdom and Courage fit properly within the Mental and Social stat blocks, respectively. Of course this is assuming I don't go with your next suggestion.

Now to address the biggest part of your post, but hopefully I can keep my response short. First off, I like diagrams. Diagrams are nice. And in all actuality, this solves many of the problems I was having trying to use the base 6 stats of D&D. Even if for some off-the-wall reason I decide to still go with something different, your diagram and the functionality here is something I will likely use as a basis.

Concerning the Hero Points, I'm glad you like them. I had plans to give a racial bonus to Hylians concerning them simply because they're considered the "race closest to the Goddess" and all that (trying to keep this short and sweet so I won't get too in-depth about that decision), but I do want to ask what you might have had in mind when you say "retool". I can see from your diagram that it would involve Charisma, Constitution, and Wisdom to calculate it, but as far as how that might go down, I'm rather curious to see what you had in mind.

Thank you again for the insight; I cannot express how much your expertise has helped.

LOL "Yu-Gi-Oh Syndrome". I wasn't so much focused on what the numbers might be yet, but i do agree, a simplified numbering system may be in order here. And though it has nothing to do with this Zelda system, there are indeed some cards in Yu-Gi-Oh which include 50 in their points totals, and for that matter, there are 30s . . . and 70s, and 10s, even. I think the developers decided on what they did for the purpose of all the halving effects in the game (I remember one time playing and ACTUALLY using the ones place in calculation, and I think even getting to the point I had to ask "Are we actually going to keep track of the decimal? Or shall we just round?" That was a rather extreme case, but still happened XD). But that's another discussion for another time. Your point still comes across loud and clear.

I can definitely do the crafting thing. Had plans for it, actually. Not sure about them entirely replacing skills, but perhaps simplifying the skills (rather than having a few dozen, we could maybe simplify it to 10 of them, tops; Heck, the Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic games used a D&D-esque system and only used 8 Skills, iirc, and it worked fine for them) and having the items assist them? I mean, just because you got a pair of flippers doesn't mean you know how to swim and keep yourself afloat (Lookin' at you, ALttP).
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I can definitely see why its too complicated and needs to be "dumbed down" in simple words, to a 6 stat system with health/magic/stamina, but then it would lose uniqueness. It would just be D&D with a few extra stats tacked on to fit the world of Hyrule, not a brand new system from the ground up based entirely in Hyrule lore. I say keep the first system, but change around some of the stats so that some are less useless, and it's more streamlined, like my suggestion on the sister thread. (click)
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Well the thing is D&D/d20- is not really player friendly so much as it's highly visible and is like the first system players are exposed to.

Anyway I don't really think a zelda adaptation is something that benefits from a lot of mechanics. If you're trying to do a system for zelda there's like a handful of simpler systems that could be used depending on taste. Since you wanna go with having stats corresponding to the 3 tri-force pieces I'd say use tri-stat.

Tri-stat's core is as its name suggests, you got three stats which can be renamed to the corresponding tri-force pieces and then you roll 2d6 under your associated stat with modifiers coming from like difficulty which can raise or lower the TN and skills which raise the TN. Snake-eyes are a crit success and converse is true with boxcars.

Now for skills, instead of a big sprawling list of them, let's go with something compact and narrative friendly. You get a handful of backgrounds which are like snippets of backstory which are then justified to being applied to a stat roll. Anyway, these backgrounds have like a certain value which is added to the TN if appropriate for a roll. Now a 4 is considered average for a human, and a 2d6's average result is a 7 so background should be ranked accordingly with the strongest background being something that can make that 7 a passing roll most of the time.
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So there are effectively 3 options from what I'm seeing.

The First: Keep the 9 Stat System, but rework it to be closer to the WoD Stats (Power, Wisdom, and Courage, each with a power, finesse, and defense trait).

The Second: Draw from the model @0 Azzy 0 gave me and rework the D&D stats into the Triforce along with the derived stats and other such house rules.

The Third: A Tri-Stat system with only Power, Wisdom, and Courage for the main stats as suggested by @Jerkchicken.

For Azzy, I forgot to ask, I can't seem to find a good resource that explains what WoD's stats all do. You said there was a "Social" category. How does that work with power, finesse, and defense? I get the mental one, I think. Effectively, a high mental power would mean you could answer virtually any math problem with dead-on precision as if you were a calculator, but if your mental finesse is low, it might take you much longer to reach said solution than the average person. However, the social one is a little more complex to me, and given if I were to use the nine-point system, Courage would be the closest to the social box, I would like to know so I'm fully informed going into my final decision.

For Jerkchicken, I also have a question. Or rather, a couple of questions. Say I'm trying to shoot an arrow at a Bokoblin. How would, in the Tri-Stat system, how would I go about determining that attack? Would each of the singular stats be a montage of each of the triangles I had initially suggested for the nine-point? Or would it be something else altogether? The second thing is, how would things like Heart, Magic, Stamina, and Hero Points, along with how well one can dodge (I guess armor could still function as normal, but dodging feels like it's left out)? Just some key questions so I know how this idea might function.
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So in tri-stat your three stats are body, mind, soul; the way I'm imagining the renaming is that you got wisdom=mind, power=body, and courage=soul. Each stat governs multiple aspects but it is explicitly folded into just one stat, this does not mean you cannot represent being bad in a certain aspect under a stat. There's a defect to represent a weakness in a certain area and it gives either a -3 or -6 to rolls depending on severity.

Now for combat, you have two stats one for attacking & one for defense. They're both taking the average of the stats, but defense subtracts two from it. Combat consists of three steps: a to-hit roll using the attack and any modifiers, an identical defense roll if it lands, and a roll to see how much damage they receive. There's no real difference between being a blink-tank vs tankyness outside of the presumption that tanky character is gonna have damage reduction.

Damage has a max value which calculated by adding the weapon base & appropriate mods. The rolling determines the increment taken. It's all in quarters so depending on the result you can do all of it or a minimum of a quarter (you round up when given fraction). If it's too fiddly for you, an alternative rule is just have everyone do max damage.

Like most rulesets it has abstracted health. With regards to doing stamina & magic it's trickier as there's an option to enable a meter to be consumed for abilities but it doesn't differentiate if it's like stamina or magic. So I dunno, I guess you can make a different meter but keying off to another set of stats?

Anyway the game is quite open to giving powers and stuff via "Attributes" which are just a variety of effects from like simple stuff like armor to stuff like transformation. Since this is Zelda based I'm gonna say that players should be limited especially with like more exotic stuff as that should be handled via "Items of Power" which is how you build equipment that gives abilities.

Like a hookshot would be an item of power that lets you move around in a special manner and whose combat usage would be something that either stuns and or like moves your or enemies closer.

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@Jerkchicken Thanks for clearing that up a bit for me. :) Not sure yet if I'm completely sold on it, but mostly that's because it sounds like such foreign ground compared to what I'm used to. Let me hear Azzy's answer and get some other input on which idea sounds best, and I'll work on making a decision from there.

Anywho, time for me to go to work. [sarcasm]Yippee, midnights.[/sarcasm] D: See you guys later.
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@0 Azzy 0 @Jerkchicken @Grnmachine

Just wanted to let you guys know I might not be able to talk much tomorrow or Sunday as I will likely be without internet for the weekened. But I wanted to ask you guys if you thought it might be easier to discuss these goings on over a Discord? It seems that discord is the way of the world anymore XD
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sure why not
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Sorry I've been kinda slow to reply, Friday is my day for getting so much stuff done and I'm preparing for the upcoming holiday. Persoanlly, I have no problem with discord, though I still think I would continue posting here as well. Basically, discord is more of a rapid-fire sort dealio and here I take 5evar to sit down and thoroughly plot out ideas.
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Yeah, i would prefer discord as well.
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@0 Azzy 0 That's fine. We all have to take care of Real Life sometimes. And yeah, I totally understand the differences. But, rapid-fire's not bad for when you're trying to do some quick brainstorming.

I'll get a Discord set up soon.
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