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    1. mdk 13 yrs ago
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11 yrs ago
new leg today. I AM TERMINATOR REBORN
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On an unrelated note, I just had a lovely conversation with a lady who proudly declared that all African Americans should go back to Africa and live in horrible poverty until they can appreciate that 'we' (by which I assume she meant Anglos such as herself) let them live here.

Didn't solicit this conversation, just volunteered all that. Wow.


I'm not sure what's weirder -- that such a conversation just randomly happened, or that it happened on the anniversary of Malcom X's movement (which called for the same thing, but obviously for completely different reasons)
It's pretty obvious being president drains your mental and physical health, and most people can't deal with that pressure.


America will re-elect Trump just to see that weird hair turn gray.
Like, for instance, close your eyes and imagine Trump dealing with the Cuban Missile Crisis. So yeh, Trump needs an easy time.


Eh? Trump turned China against the DPRK, (partly) by destroying the Syrian chemical weapons program over dinner. I'd call that a difficult leadership situation and a home run.

Also, how the hell are we having an argument about free will? Did you guys get high last night?


I assume it was preferable to discussing the Veritas exposing CNN.
Although I already covered this in enough detail to make the point.


Oh you've made the argument, yes. Present evidence. (spoiler alert: it's an untestable, nonscientific hypothesis, no evidence exists).

Show me the gland which causes altruism.
I dont believe things because they are personally pleasant to me. That is intellectual cowardice.


Well you're certainly not believing in things based on intellectual merit.

If only.


Present evidence to the contrary.
All @Penny is saying is that it's a scientifically conceivable theory that has not been disproved, and many scientists are considering it as making sense. She even conceding since we don't know all of what nature has in store for us, that it might be disproved. I'm not certain if we've gained more understanding in this field since last I checked, but people use Quantum Physics, which do/did act outside the laws of what we perceive as logical, to dismiss the 'no free will' theory. But Idk now.
@mdk


As it cannot be tested, it is not 'scientifically conceivable.' Attaching 'science' to the idea, in any way, is disingenuous. There is no shred of science to it. It will never be disproved and that's the problem -- it's incapable of consideration, and therefore irrelevant.
I want to reiterate that this isn't a belief in which I take comfort, quite the opposite in fact.


So why believe it? It's irrational, vapid, self-defeating, etc. and apparently also distressing. Is it enriching your life somehow? Just call bullshit and move on.

I feel like the lack of magic universe altering extra biological decision making powers ought to be the ground state.


Ah. That's it. This irrational vapid self-defeating distress is your access card to the 'it's okay to not believe in fairy godmothers' club. Well you don't need it. You're perfectly capable of making up your own mind.
Oh, and since my current debate is going nowhere. How about something possibly more interesting and hopefully less personal, political/personal opinion. (try to stick to non-personal conjecture.)

2020. (assuming we don't crash into the sun.) What happens in the next election? Who do you WANT to run, and who do you think will actually try to run? Would you actually vote for the same person you voted for again, if you did? Will you not vote again and complain that elections are rigged and start a petition to succeed if you're side doesn't win? Do you think if Trump does well (to the people that voted for him.) He'll get re-elected again? Would you want the third two term president in a row even if he was? How about if he is passable/does poorly? Is there an actual difference? Will third parties ever have a damned chance? Give me your thoughts. Maybe it will lead to better discussion. *fingers halfheartedly crossed* :3


A third party won in 2016, and we're kicking out the establishment GOP bit by bit. Hostile takeover, under budget and ahead of schedule. Trump will win re-election unless the Democrats abandon... well that's the wrong word. They need to stand for something. The loose coalition of pseudo-oppressed propagandized minority groups is tearing apart at the seams, and the mobilization tactics of yesteryear are slipping. It's a worst-case scenario for Democrats -- the future is actually getting brighter, and they have nothing whatsoever to do with it.
*snip*


actually hang on

Nature is incredible, it is possible that there is some sort of weird property we have never encountered before which would provide a mechanism for free will. It is not impossible, it just seems unlikely given our current understanding.


Literally every advancement in the history of science consisted of discovering weird properties we have never encountered before. Abandoning the very concept of self-determination on the basis of 'current understanding' is therefore insane (especially given its proven capacity to improve your life). Not, like, in a derogatory way -- that's just nuts though. Anyway back to the bigger picture:

snip


I keep starting and stopping. Here's my blunt assessment -- the concept is (1) unsupportable, (2) unscientific, (3) useless, (4) self-defeating, (5) insincerely held, (6) vapid, (7) ....you get the idea I don't care for it. Let's tick off the list so far and see if I feel compelled to continue.

1 (and a bit of 2)

The theory is, "if I knew everything I could tell you what happens next." Well what happens next? "I don't know everything. But if I did, I could." Well, find out more, then tell me what happens next. "I tried -- but I couldn't learn everything. But if I could...." Unsupportable. You've attached it to biology for some reason, instead of galactic gravitational wave patterns -- I'm not sure why you picked the one versus the other, but I'm entirely certain it wouldn't make a lick of difference no matter what you picked as the determinant characteristic.

2

It's unscientific because nowhere in the theory have we arrived at anything we could ever conceivably test or observe, short of constructing a sympathetic control omniverse against which to compare our findings here. Your assessment of 'biochemistry' is akin to a god, only instead of holy texts you're basing it on stoner psych. Perhaps that's preferable -- your call. But it damned sure ain't scientific, not in the least.

3.

In what ways (if any) is the distinction between "free will" and "the illusion of free will" useful? There is no pragmatic value. I mean unless you count the positive fee-fees when you can say "oh bless his heart, it wasn't his fault his ancestor had a mutated 912d chromosome" (I do not know how to fake a chromosome). But then we're right back to "this is a religion, based on nothing."

4.

When you "know everything, every atom, every quark," etc. doesn't the same logic hold that those are only illusions of atoms and quarks, and you still know nothing john snow? And where is it written that the governing laws of the hyperverse are consistent and homeostatic anyway -- maybe we're not in a lake, but in a toilet bowl circling the drain, and the governing laws are inherently temporary. Maybe the toilet-bowl metaphor is just a toilet-bowl-ILLUSION metaphor illusion of illusory purposes. The point of the theory is not that someday all this hypothetical bullshit will amount to a complete understanding of 'fate' -- the point is, no matter what, it will never matter and nobody will ever know anything ever. But you can't be sure, because.... anyway.

5.

But you could be wrong, so hedge your bets -- aka, it's a scam, bail immediately.

6.

sorta already covered the vapidity of it all in my various other responses. In what way is any of this remotely relevant to anything? "If I had ten billion dollars I'd eat a giraffe tomorrow." Equivalent statement. Why in the living fuck would anybody assign a single iota of significance to that?
<Snipped quote by mdk>
Or you know, just fuck off and let them be so that in ten or so years they don't come with a grudge to your country and start blowing your shit up and shooting you. Westerners don't realize that they are, at least in part responsible for the shit that's going on in MENA.


We fucked off ten or so years ago and it hasn't exactly gotten better. It wasn't exactly better twenty years ago, or thirty, or a hundred, or a thousand. Let's be fair.

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