Vilageidiotx

Venezuela is now closer to being a full-blown Dictatorship - The Guardian article inside

Damn. And here I thought the Socialists would soon be out of power and things would soon be improving. I know that people are starving in Venezuela already, and so this is just more really bad news.

@ZB1996

History is a slow-going motherfucker unfortunately.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

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Okay, I simply think there's a huge difference between, not knowing about and hating/having ill will towards another's race. Racism has never been used in a mild critique, it's always a damning word of someone's moral compass and always had an extremely negative connotation. Saying everyone is (only a slight step down from everything is, like your wooden chair is racist in someway.) Just doesn't hold any water. Especially, since people are charged with the crime of hating their own race, how the fuck does that work out in tribal terms? If you count ignorance as racism, I feel that makes the word meaningless. I simply think most of it boils down to lack of knowledge about other cultures, but once you learn about those cultures...or hell if you live in those cultures. You won't feel or think any differently than someone in that culture. Meaning you aren't born racist, you're born without knowledge.

Jontron said some poorly thought out statements. (which he admitted to doing.) Though the crime statistics I'm not convinced are bullshit...So mixing all those statements like they're somehow equal, seems unhelpful. It's not wrong to call out stupidity, but assuming ill intentions with paper thin evidence is going too far. (at least in my opinion.) And if all it was, was saying "Hey, those statements we're kind of stupid to say. You didn't think that out very clearly!" Vs. "OMG he hates black people, that one joke he made a long time ago was realz!?" "Now it's okay to talk down to him! Let's ruin his career!" which is exactly what most conversations have been from various social media websites.

I think it's a little disturbing to assume such awful things about other people, that they've never even had a passing conversation with. I just don't think tribalism is really an accurate word either. People are individuals, they're not a collective. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but all I see in life, more often than not. Isn't tribalism, but bandwagon hatred. The kind of desperation to fit in that you'll hate whatever people in your circles hate.

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But trespassing has kind of always been seen as a bad thing, probably before private propriety laws were even a thing...and there's just so much more to it than that. I think the "debate" is why people try to make it seem like people are talking about "immigration" when their not and talking specifically about people breaking the law. I don't see much leeway in that...Now legal immigration can be discussed until the cows come home and then we can laugh about Canada and Trudeau being a lying dick. "Everyone's welcome here!" - says the guy that has far stricter immigration policies in his country than the united states.

@SleepingSilence

First and foremost I didn't invent the word racism, i'm just using it correctly. The reason why we jump the gun on public racism, like I said way earlier, is because there is a public taboo against it. The reason for that taboo is that if we accepted all the JonTron type opinions with no controversy, his opinion might become acceptable and start to drive public policy, which could mean state violence against minorities.

Also, your alternative description for tribalism is tribalism. You wrap your idea of yourself in the group you belong to. I didn't mean that group literally was a tribe you belong to. Not everyone identifies with their race, so that might not be your tribal affiliation.

Trespassing assumes we are talking about property specifically. The illegality isn't "Trespassing", it's a lack of documentation or vetting. What we can discuss is whether or not it is more practical to hunt down illegal immigrants and drive them out, or to allow them a way to get the necessary documentation while living here. I think both sides of the debate have good points, but I think it is a little tragic to say "They broke the law lol no debate is allowed"

And the reason why illegal immigration gets turned into a general immigration debate is because most arguments against illegal immigration have been made about immigration in general. Both sides of the debate do this.

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theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/..

Off topic, but I think you can find anyone claiming their anything...There's people calling themselves "Jewish Atheists" and "Anarcho-Socialists" there's probably more gender labels than ever before...that no average person would a have a fucking clue what they meant. Self proclaiming your something to be special or unique is something that is only getting more ridiculous and common...Like it may take 10, 20 or 50 years. But depending on how much stupid we take seriously, other kin will start becoming a mainstream idea and not a joke... :/

So to answer your question, I doubt most people claiming that even know what it means, but would I be surprised if it someone claimed that to be their belief system? No.

@SleepingSilence

Anarcho-Socialists go back to the 19th century and arguably predates Marxism, and the cultural Jew (Jewish Atheist) is an old time standard. Those things aren't that weird tbh, them dang-darn millenials didn't invent those. Though you're right on the gender labels, I have a beef with most of those.

As for the above article, doesn't that basically explain everybody honestly? My grandma thinks private healthcare is socialism and Trump needs to do the capitalist thing and get rid of it. People have goofy ideas of what politics is regardless of age.

But yeh, I suppose there are probably Post-Modern communists, since a lot of people seem to think "Communism is when the government gives you stuff", and that idea alone could be mashed in with post-modernism.

Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

@Dinh AaronMk, it is additional proof that socialism and communism will never work... _{just saying..}

@The Spectre

The Spectre is haunting Off-Topic...

...the Spectre of shitposting.

i should probably go to bed now.

Happy Brexit Day!

it still sounds like a fucking cookie

and yes, you guys gotta call them cookies now. you're outside of europe now, they ain't going to protect you no more. call them cookies or we'll fuck you up.

Do you think I could pull off a leather jacket?

Try a leather cummerbund and work your way up.

Venezuela is now closer to being a full-blown Dictatorship - The Guardian article inside

theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/30/vene..

It seems to me that I'm living in a dangerous country indeed. On another note, inflation is expected to reach 2880% this year. Yes, you read that right!

@Frettzo

Get out if you can. Good luck.

Remember kids! Socialism and Communism does not and will never work! If it looks too good on paper, then do not trust it!

Sorry about your country going into a shitty dictatorship with the side of socialism. Hope that you are doing well.

@The Spectre

I don't think failure should be used as proof that society should never attempt to improve or advance. You take a snapshot of democracy from the beginning of time until 1776 and you won't find a democracy that didn't fall on its face completely, but the system got worked out eventually (well, maybe). Something tells me that a period of 100 years is probably not a large enough sample size to make the determination you are making.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

goddammit you guys made this thread a motherfucker to organize the quotes for

W-which he did. twitter.com/JonTronShow/status/8450382.. I don't get your point here. And politics, by nature, are not based in disrespecting your opponent views. Respect =/= liking people. Sorry, but you're missing the point here.

@Buddha

The question was, if I recall, why there wasn't an equal backlash for the behavior of the developers toward him as there was for his original comments? I'm saying that the reason the developers behavior didn't create a backlash was that it was a personal issue between JonTron and them, whereas the other was about JonTron's political opinions, which is a public matter by default, since he made his opinions public and the opinions are about how the public should be ran. What happens between JonTron and those developers is not especially relevant on a large scale.

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Setting the bar at "Systemic genocide" is pretty blaise. Consider: after seeing a headline "JonTron's Possibly Racist Views," are you (a) more likely or (b) less likely to watch JonTron's videos? If a candidate for office is accused of racism for 14 months, do you think that candidate is (a) more likely or (b) less likely to be elected, regardless of policy? If half the nation is thrown into a basket of deplorables, your racists, your homophobes, your misogynists, how likely is it that afterwards the two sides of the argument are going to be able to come together?

And yeah, we're talking about race in this thread because title, but this goes way beyond all that. North Carolina is losing hundreds of millions of dollars for the crime of having the same bathrooms as last year. Social bullying is the absolute norm. That's a very bad thing. The fact that it hasn't escalated to actual SYSTEMIC violence, only scattered POCKETS of violence, does not make that okay.

@mdk

It's only blaise if we consider these (racism not being taboo vs racism as an overused taboo) separate issues. I think it is a sliding scale, personally, where on one end (racism not being taboo) we have systematic violence, and on the other (racism as an overused taboo) we have stupid shit happening in public but being systematically contained. What I am afraid of is this fight currently taking place against the tabooification of racism is going to recreate systematic racism that right now is at least somewhat (though not completely) tamed.

I don't mean to be black and white about it, I understand there is a grey area ideal that we would all prefer everything to sit at. But society is a complex motherfucker, and doesn't like to stay completely balanced. So for me I'm afraid we'll trade the issue of people not watching JonTron videos for increased police violence against minorities.

As for your references in particular

A: Trump was elected. The race taboo didn't end his chances.
B: The basket of deplorables was, in my opinion, a tactical error. Deploying it hurt her. I will note the American left has been shit on for years by the right, so it's silly to pretend that conservatives are victims of a unilateral smear campaign. It takes two to tango.

Also, why is it now "Social bullying" to shop with your dollar, so to speak? I do not see the North Carolina situation as bullying at all and I think it is hyperbolic to suggest it. Witholding potential funds is a completely civil and peaceful way for opponents of NC's law to respond.

Of course, I agree with you that racism does also require explicit violence. However, I do believe in giving people a second chance. Like if a white supremacist changes his entire viewpoint and realize that he has done wrong, then I would give him a chance to prove it. We should be giving them and others a chance rather than just assume that they will change. It is like when people are saying 'punch a nazi.' What if that Nazi has completely changed? Would you try to forgive him or punish him anyway because of his past.

Of course, I am getting off topic (again).

@The Spectre

I didn't say otherwise. I just said JonTron is a racist, I didn't say he is condemned to hell or some shit. If he stops being a racist, then he is no longer a racist. If a Nazi has completely changed, he is no longer a Nazi. But if a Nazi is running around town saying "Gas the kikes" or some shit, then punching him for his current nazi-ing out is justified.

Also, I don't think JonTron is a Nazi. He just has dumb opinions that happen to be racist. I'm not lumping him in with Hitler.

Well, post-modernism affects everyone, including the conservatives and the communists. The idea that it isn't cool to call it racism, it's the idea that you must be a racist if you do nothing. Left-leaning political ideas are more popular and common than right-leaning ideas. Not saying that the right does not exist because it does. Like how a Tumblr post that talks about feminism gets tens of thousands of likes and reblogs while a post about pro-gun gets only a few hundred to a thousand likes and reblogs.

And I am wondering if you think that I am a part of the right wing movement? Just curious.

@The Spectre

Tumblr isn't exactly the most balanced sample. Both political groups exist in some relative balance in the general population. I mean, Trump got elected. That doesn't exactly support an "Everybody except a few people are leftists" argument.

Also, I never said someone is racist if they do nothing. I am sure some people think otherwise, but I disagree with them. If JonTron only said "I don't do anything about racism" I wouldn't think he was a racist.

And I do have to ask, and this is a question for everybody, is there post-modern communists? I actually don't know. I don't think post-modernism is very compatible with dialectical thought. I was thinking more those leftists who say "There is no culture" or some silly shit like that when I said "Post modernism is a edgy left thing."

The Know-Nothing party was mainly anti-Catholic and they were scared because they truly believed that the Catholics were limited liberties and freedom back in Europe. I do not understand how the Know-Nothing party fits into the modern day and that JonTron is one. Is it because of nativism or populist is highly present in the party? Care to explain?

@The Spectre

Because that was who they were faced with at the time. Germans and Irish immigrants came over in large numbers, both from the Catholic portions of those countries for the most part, and that created tensions. Working folk didn't like competing for wages with poor immigrants, and middle class people were afraid of the cultural and religious differences. Honestly, reading the complaints the know-nothings had about immigrants is sooo fucking similar to the Trump movement that it's kinda fun to read. I think this is largely because all arguments about immigration are going to be founded on the same basic ideas.

Hmm...

Well, reading most of this discussion. It basically boils down to everyone is racist, but if that's true...why is merely saying it so damning and condemning of a man's/woman's character if literally everyone on earth is racist? How can it hold such power, if it's such a vague and almost pointless thing to say? Since from birth, you're just born that way...It's not just prejudice or ignorance, which are words that already exists. No, it's believing that a particular race is superior to another. The definition on google. I just really don't hold that belief...at all.

@SleepingSilence

Okay, first and foremost lets be honest about that source. Punditry is punditry. It'd be like be posting articles from the Jacobin. Those are meant for ideological examination, not for public debate.

What I am trying to say with "everyone is racist" is that racism isn't something only Nazis do, but it is more like what @Buddha has got at a few times, that tribalistic thinking is sort of innate, and it is part of the human condition that we are supposed to rise above it. We are never perfect, and everyone occasionally slips. At the same time, there are levels. JonTron did more then just slip. He didn't go full Nazi, but none the same he did double down on some tribalistic bullshit. This thread to me has thus far been two basic arguments that weave around each other and into each other a bit.

A: Saying that JonTron said some bullshit and calling it what it is; bullshit.

B: Arguing that calling bullshit "bullshit" is just too mean, and that we must obfuscate honesty for the sake of some politically correct post-modern shit.

Also, prejudice and ignorance are general rules that cover multiple situations, whereas racism is a specific word. I am prejudice of McDonalds locations I've never been too. I am ignorant of particle physics. Racism is a word that can be used to cover ignorance and prejudice in regards to race specifically.

@Vilageidiotx Is it really debatable though? Illegal immigration means crime has already been committed. Are we arguing for roleplayerguild.com/topics/160898-lets.. to become okay? Because that's really about all that can be debated. The reason the other side doesn't use that word is so people don't question the whole "illegal" thing. Not to nitpick, that is sort of what I'm doing. But I just don't feel like going full course. I'm politic'd out. :P

@SleepingSilence

Well I hope we can debate the nature of law, yeh. That's a backbone of western thought. Leave it to the courts to be specific about legality, it is the job of the rest of us as citizens to debate based on what is best for our society.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

@Chrononaut Someone's lit a fire under this doggo's ass, he seems to be on a roll right now.

@Dynamo Frokane

honestly i'm just posting here because i'm putting off going to bed.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

Yeh, Europe has a legit immigration crisis going on, I'm not going to deny any of that.

The US is dealing with something less messy. We've had a lot of coming and going across the Mexican border since forever, oftentimes illegal. (there is a really good documentary about this from all the way back in the eighties.) It's just that now, over the last ten or twenty years, northern Mexico is seriously fucked up, and the trickled of people is larger than it used to be. Couple that with wage stagnation and people wanting a scapegoat, and you got what we have now.

Lets talk about JonTron and his possibly racist views.

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So you think that he deserves to be receiving insults from developers who, after they got caught shittalking, made their accounts private? And you don't think that equally deserves backlash just like JonTron got backlash? Purely because... what, purely because youtubers aren't allowed to show political opinions and affiliations?

@Buddha

Because the former is a personal matter betwixt the developers and JonTron, whereas JonTron's views have public implications by virtue of being political. You can say things, but you have to accept the potential social repercussions of those things. Just because you say something doesn't mean everyone owes it to you to like you.