Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by TheWendil
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@Bushman501

Well it'd be pretty unfair to have things go wrong now. We don't want to torture you all quite yet; we have better, more despairing plans in mind for your futures.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Bushman501
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@TheWindel

Hehe I look forward to it!
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Leotamer
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I am not sure what argument you are referring to, but I think you are referring to appeal to nature. And if it is, I am not not making an appeal to nature fallacy. The AtN Fallacy is that because something is natural means that is good, which well fallacious. I am not making a moral judgment about the rocs attacking people. I am saying that we don't have a reason to mess with it. This is just something that happens, and besides, ecosystems. Killing predators can have a domino effect downwards, but I don 't think this is the time or place to go into that. And if you aren't talking about that argument, be more specific.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by TheWendil
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@Leotamer

I...don't think that's what KoL's referring to. If anything, it's probably an explanation about the situation? Best to wait until they're free to elaborate.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Lonewolf685
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@Bushman501

As much as I agree with this school of thought, and the scramble to recontier after a FUBAR plan is enthralling as someone who adores getting their teeth kicked in with Xcom, though in this case it isn't apt to allow.

If this plan was the product of group imput and consensus with each taking time to factor in one another's skills after having several sorties of experience under there belt, then I'd be all for it. However there was no consensus and no one wanted to take the lead of a group of largely untested cadets and thus this engagement with the Rocs is more tutorial then proper battle.

Though I do find some bemusement in talk of military stratagem when some are so adamantly opposed to their leaders actions. Ires may not be a seasoned commander of men and her plan isn't a stroke of ingenious tactical acumen, but it isn't incompetent either and disregarding an officers orders to act independent is universally detrimental to cohesion, performance, and morale.

Also no one ever asked if this totally not evil Empire we fight for actually has Commisars, indicating that summary executions may occur in the field for such acts :3
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Bushman501
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@Lonewolf685

Yeah there also needs to be a balance. Getting teeth kicked in all the time isn't good either.

I made sure that Regina was not a perfect strategist either due to still being a cadet at the bare minimum of reasons and empasized imperfections. But I also tried to show potential at the same time. I will admit that is a hard thing to do though especially in this situation. Ires may not be incompetent but to the character her and Gradon might as well be for now. Gradon for a totally different reason though.

Oh boy, commissars. Our Catachan will take care of them.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Bushman501
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Though this does get me curious. Probably should have asked this before but what training standards are the minimum for cadets to even be considered to go out into the field? They'd obviously not throw in extremely young ones with no training in combat or tactics but it does not seem to be the best of the best cadets either.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Lonewolf685
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Oh boy, commissars. Our Catachan will take care of them.


That, or the Empire is full of Kriegsman and they are superfluous as our morale is impeccable

Though this does get me curious. Probably should have asked this before but what training standards are the minimum for cadets to even be considered to go out into the field? They'd obviously not throw in extremely young ones with no training in combat or tactics but it does not seem to be the best of the best cadets either.


Well basic training exists to elevate soldiers to a common standard so they can be deployed with a uniform minimum level of effectiveness. However in a setting like this with Vessels being so proliferated it can be expected that some would take efforts to develop their skills before even entering. Ires has the standards of maintaining her royale pedigree, Leblanc got involved in street fights, turf wars, an a few gristly disappearences no Imperial official can directly link, etc.

So in terms of individual combat ability the standards fluctuate, but due to inexperience their group work is low across the board. If they still had their Captain with them then it would be better, but with an inexperienced and unfamiliar leader, things aren't as peachy as they once were.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by KoL
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First things first.

@Crimmy, and @DracoLunaris

Any of you two is still on this? Your silence, especially when we are asking about posts that you could have done since both of your characters are enabled to do so.

If you fail to reply by the end of this weekend, we will just move away without your characters. No ill effects will happen, your characters will just fade away until you come back. I just don't want to leave the RP stuck waiting on unresponsive players. I hope you can understand this.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by KoL
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I'll explain more things tomorrow, by the way.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Crimmy
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Crimmy Oi brat, what're ye using that noggin for?

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@KoL

Sorry, I've mostly been just thinking over things.

Tzi's capabilities pretty much keep him grounded for now, so I guess another post involving him would probably be trying to help distract the birds from finding out the plan. Though, are we actually allowed to kill any of these guys? Tzi's been launching anchors and nets up at them in an attempt to bring them to the ground, but I wasn't sure if we were allowed to effectively do such things and try and kill them.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by TheWendil
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@Crimmy

You're allowed to kill them.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Hammerman
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Just a heads up, I may or may not have the time to reply until next week. Work related reasons.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Crimmy
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Crimmy Oi brat, what're ye using that noggin for?

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@Crimmy

You're allowed to kill them.


Yeah, I was confused for a while due to

These rocs may be gigantic, but they are just adolescent, if we kill one of them, the others aren't going to bother us.
Ires


and so wouldn't the rest of the plan feel a bit redundant if we could jab anchors into their heads?

Anyway, guess I'll throw up a post with Tzi trying to use a roc as a bludgeon.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by KoL
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@Crimmy

Well, if they can kill one, they can certainly kill more. Your bloodlust and common sense are your only limits.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by KoL
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Just a heads up, I may or may not have the time to reply until next week. Work related reasons.


Thanks, we will try to not torture Esther too much until you come back.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by KoL
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So, here's my explanation:

This fight is really poorly designed. Our team does not have the tools to handle large, flying creatures. This could be a good thing. If the rocs were to show a weakness in the team [...]


This fight was more or less chosen at random since rocs are typical inhabitants of Orello's region. That said, you can't and shouldn't expect every fight you face to be one where you have chances of winning by superior force. Yes, the team has a weakness against flying foes, but ths doesn't make that an imposible fight, just one that requires a bit of creativity.

This was the first battle of its kind in the RP up to now, as well. The Cadets led the advantage on all of the previous encounters. In short, it was not poorly designed, it was challenging.

[...] except the rocs pose very little threat. And not in the sense that they are the main characters and this is a minor encounter, but in universe, rocs aren't that scary. Sure, for a regular villager, a giant eagle is pretty scary, but for military-trained students, who can easily duck and dodge their attacks, there isn't much that they can really do.


This is something some of you don't seem to get no matter how many times I mention it, so let me explain it again. Your characters aren't normal people. They are supersoldiers in training, simply that. The juvenile rocs aren't supposed to be a death threat to any of you. However, conventional military and civilians would freeze in fear from just seeing one of those things. They are deadly threats to the normal population, the thing is that none of your characters are supposed to be normal.

Vessel bearers aren't rank and file members of the military, they are the very elite either as commanders, shocktroopers, or top operatives. They are the ones that get the job done. Even a moderately trained knight is better than a whole squad of conventional soldiers if not more.

When your characters are ready to graduation I don't expect anything less of them being like at least Cloud Strife level.

Honestly, Regina plan probably would be better. Why do we have to kill them? They attacked us, but as far as I am concerned, they are just territorial beasts and that their presence and their attacking are particularly normal and natural.


No one ever disqualified Regina's plan, the thing is... No one chose to lead and very few even placed their votes for a leader when asked to, preferring to spend their post in other ways, or tucked in a bush. The few that voted chose Gradon and he asked the Princess to lead while he serves as deputy.

In other words, you are complaining because of Ires' plan but IC your characters allowed her to lead. They are being childish, at least and putting everyone's lives in danger by not following the plan nearly everyone agreed to, at worst.

Not voting is your prerogative. However, you can't complain about the result when things don't go your way because of that.

Taking the chance, I'll address this as well:

I am not sure what argument you are referring to, but I think you are referring to appeal to nature. And if it is, I am not not making an appeal to nature fallacy. The AtN Fallacy is that because something is natural means that is good, which well fallacious. I am not making a moral judgment about the rocs attacking people. I am saying that we don't have a reason to mess with it. This is just something that happens, and besides, ecosystems. Killing predators can have a domino effect downwards, but I don 't think this is the time or place to go into that. And if you aren't talking about that argument, be more specific.


Didn't I ask you guys to stop making baseless assumptions less than two weeks ago? Where in my previous post did I comment anything that would give the least impression of this argument you brought up?

I'll ask again, stop doing that. This is not how people are supposed to debate. It's just frankly annoying when you change the subject of the argument in such a way.

@Lonewolf685

Yeah there also needs to be a balance. Getting teeth kicked in all the time isn't good either.


Well, like I said above, this is the first harder encounter the characters had in the RP. And you are exploring a very dangerous region, to begin with.

It would be cheap of us to hit where you are weak every single time, but on the first one we do it you have a reaction like this? Well, that's not entertaining to anyone. We thought it was going to be a cool fight but seems that it just became a frustration.

Though this does get me curious. Probably should have asked this before but what training standards are the minimum for cadets to even be considered to go out into the field? They'd obviously not throw in extremely young ones with no training in combat or tactics but it does not seem to be the best of the best cadets either.


Well, I addressed this more or less in the OP. None of your characters are beginners and, even if they are, they are supposed to be above the common people anyway. The Academy is harsh, so Cadets are sent to the field pretty much as soon as they have the basics drilled on them, it's just that the types of missions vary drastically. The one you are now is something that only advanced Cadets like your characters are supposed to be are allowed to join.

@KoL

Sorry, I've mostly been just thinking over things.


That's no problem. The issue is that you didn't tell us anything. Even if you want to take a time, you need to tell us, otherwise, the RP will be stuck waiting.

We aren't pressuring people to post but rather to understand what's up.

Talking about that: @DracoLunaris you have until tomorrow. I'm asking it politely, is it so hard to tell us if you are going to continue in the RP or not?
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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Bushman501
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It wasn't really frustrating to me personally. In fact it made me think of our options besides "kill birdie! Shoot bird with raifu!" Then again I love tactics even if I may not be that good at them.

Thanks for clarifying about the training even if it was in the OP. I think I'll get another post out today to finish what happened to my character.

EDIT: Just to clarify on this part.
Well, like I said above, this is the first harder encounter the characters had in the RP. And you are exploring a very dangerous region, to begin with.

It would be cheap of us to hit where you are weak every single time, but on the first one we do it you have a reaction like this? Well, that's not entertaining to anyone. We thought it was going to be a cool fight but seems that it just became a frustration.


That was not really my reaction. I was talkng about in general when designing encounters to Lonewolf, as I have been a GM and DM before. You actually did a decent job with it. My only true headache is the Princess's plan, but I had my character try to deal with that with no success so I just shrugged and continued as normal.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by TheWendil
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Considering my post is supposed to end the battle, I really don't want to have to go next.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Bushman501
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When I get the motivation and time today I'll finish mine up.
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