thank christ I'm a slavic untermensch

I cannot claim to be surprised at this rate that it is "Not okay to be white." and I believe more than anything now this recent memetic onslaught and breakthrough into reality has shown the underlying issue. That issue being it is, at this time, considered largely socially acceptable to be prejudiced if not apparently outright racist toward whites because of any number of proposed cultural and societal "imbalances". This is the ugly spawn of identity politics and its relatives, front and center.

At least now the ludicrous nature of the argument is being exposed more and more.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity The Alt-Right seems to think that the way to combat identity politics is with more identity politics, such as ethno-states etc.

Have you seen millennial woes' video on the subject?

@mdk I wonder if a lot of the people voting no just did it to troll kessler, because you know he's white nationalist and that's not particularly popular with people on the left or the right, surprise surprise.

@Tulpa is back it seems...

There is a stark contrast in what is or is not taken seriously, @Dynamo Frokane. When you start speaking about ethno-states, most tend to shut themselves down. The extremists will of course adhere to it as gospel no matter what, but how often do you hear them making the news as the major focus of the media? Why is "It's okay to be white." a controversial statement at all? If it is perfectly acceptable to be any other race, as it should be, why is one of these permitted to suffer under "actual", a term I use very loosely, critique? There is a distinct contrast in what passes for acceptable identity politics, because it is palatable, exploitable and in the minds of some, legitimately credible, and then there are the sorts people will immediately react to with a sense of discomfort.

I am less legitimately worried about the actual Alt-Right white nationalist sensationalists than I am any number of mainstream figures who are pandering based on race. One of those two groups is taken seriously and I am sure beyond a doubt you can decipher which under your own accord and volition. There is no shortage of cringe-worthy pandering to race, gender, or class by at least half of the current political battlefield of the United States, one of whom was almost elect of their party and another was a presidential candidate.

As for "millennial woes" I am unfamiliar to them personally.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity Well as with everything its a matter of context, if you are sympathetic to white nationalism then you will take the Alt-Right seriously. Just like if you are sympathetic to gamer-gate, black lives matter etc you will obviously follow the voices that echo your own biases or thoughts.

I don't speak for 'the media' so I don't know exactly who thinks it is or isn't okay to be white, clearly it is okay, but I can see how some people might be uncomfortable with the term when it gets thrown around heavily in some alt-right circles. If you accept that someone like Richard Spencer is not a very popular figure then you can understand the reluctance to repeat something that he is repeating if its seems too close to his ideology, I personally don't have that problem but you can see why some people might be gun-shy. Its similar why you dont see regular black people saying 'black power' with the solidarity fist. Not because there is anything particularly wrong with that statement in a vacuum, but because it is associated with a fairly radical and militant group that most regular folk don't feel a desire to align themselves with.

In the case of that twitter poll, again it has to be viewed in context, that is not representative of the country, while 20,000 plus people might seem like a lot on paper, we don't know the demographics of the voters of that twitter poll and I'm almost certain that a lot of those 'no' votes were simply to spite Jason Kessler because he's a very unpopular person. In the same way you might see a lot of downvotes on a video for Anita Sarkeesian.

If you feel I'm saying anything unreasonable here, please highlight and address it, I enjoy talking with you but I very much want to stay on this very particular topic, and at this point am not interested in a greater discussion about the broader media or anything outside this particular twitter poll.

@mdk 4chan is an oddly successful bunch of individuals. Whether they prove people's absolute racism and their double standards...or just getting likely the very same bunch to microwave their Iphones.

Well drat. How was I to know it was in-between your debate with Sleeping Silence and your debate with Sleeping Silence?!

To be perfectly honest, you didn't miss much.

If you wish to focus only on the Twitter poll, then there is little more I can offer to it in context other than it is the result of something else that had been building for a while. Granted as you said the data is very limited and subject to the whims of people trolling it for results because of the current situation of "It's okay to be white." and that the person posing it this time might make for an easy or desirable target. Regardless, what I am getting to is this Twitter poll by itself is rather boring and is only a piece of the far, far larger image critical to understanding why it manifest at all, @Dynamo Frokane. The context of the environment and the overall tale being weaved is far more pressing and important; harping on this one note is not going to legitimately reveal anything to us we cannot already derive from conjecture, or better without hypothesizing, at its purest face value.

If we took it as an honest representation, it really displays to us nothing as it shows us neither the realistic demographics of who it is intended for in the United States' populace and its root purpose. As a statement, most distilled and purest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "It's okay to be white." or phrasing that same statement as an inquiry. Even in contrast to other racial rallying cries as the oft stereotyped "Black Power" or "Mexican Pride", it is a very inane, meek thing to say. So uncontroversial is it that it is a laughable remark, as it was partially intended to be, but since we are forced to stick to the poll we will continue. As a representation of the population, we are all aware there are pools of personalities who take these things seriously, but the proportions they are blown up to varies.

Sure there is an expectation a person in the white nationalist community is going to be saying "It's okay to be white.", but that is not where this content has spread to, again why it is utterly imperative to understand where this originated from and how it has spread. Regardless, this is not controversial in itself either, being that this is not even a matter of supposed superiority; you are legitimately in receipt of a statement that, for lack of better words, really means nothing. You could cite that the person saying it means other things, but why would they just not say those things instead? They make for a very, very poor white nationalist if the best they can do is say "It's okay to be white.".

Proceeding, an interesting point you make is people purposefully voting "No." to spite the person in question unwittingly add more fuel to the fire of the opposition's argument in this case. By not agreeing to it, they have only proven at large - this was notable in the media I referred to when this picked up some weeks ago - they are making fools of themselves. The only credible answer is "Yes." regardless of personal bias, but being likely incomplete people, their hatred for someone is so strong that they are willing to ignore what is an acceptable statement. Now of course trolling might make this worse, to help further their goals of spreading this message and creating more controversy, but even then, what of it? In this vacuum we find ourselves in, that really would mean nothing in of itself, especially in this day and age where data like this is constantly and readily manipulated, especially when motives are in mind.

I suppose the last of my points about it without deviating from just the poll, is that it has no effect. The person in question hasn't the reach or power to be that influential or important, a piece of the puzzle undoubtedly, but this is not on the level of other actions - some even official - we have seen in the past few years.

I wonder if a lot of the people voting no just did it to troll kessler, because you know he's white nationalist and that's not particularly popular with people on the left or the right, surprise surprise.

Well I mean the whole thing started as a 4chan trolling thing that had many people completely buy into the innocuous and made asses of themselves, taking it seriously/offensively. I think a large percentage of the Alt-Right, just stems from trolling the self proclaimed victims of society.

>Hates My Computer. This was all one post. >.>

@The Harbinger of Ferocity I can see why you Roleplay Cat-Man. You are very good at expanding on fairly simple point, makes for good reading makes it easier to digest.

I mean I don't think we are in any disagreement here. I definitely think its okay to be white, I was just attempting to empathize with those who voted no on that poll, that while their actions might have been short sighted, their actualy ideology may not of been that of 'anti-white' rhetoric.

The only thing I disagree with you on is that notion that a poor white nationalist would only say its okay to be white. I would argue the opposite that a very clever and subversive white nationalist would use something a statement that is fairly agreeable as a starting point/gateway drug to some heavier views in their direction to convert people who might have been turned off by the more 'pure' rhetoric. It's acutally an extremely common recruting tool not just used by fringe ideologies such as White Power Gangs and Islamists but also cults.

But yes, everything else seem to be in order, good chat.

I think a large percentage of the Alt-Right, just stems from trolling the self proclaimed victims of society.

Ben Shapiro did a video on this. If people are literally just trolling for the sake of trolling then they probably weren't alt right to begin with. But the Alt-Right is absolutely a lot smaller than they would have you believe I agree with you. They used the meme culture thing to ecompass a broader range of shitposters to make the movement seem more powerful and popular than it really was, which ironically made them more popular and powerful.

Richard Spencer mentioned that a lot of 4chan users 'tricked themselves' into being white nationalists. They were saying all that 'gas the jews' crap to be edgy and piss people off, but then slowly started reading more and more nazi material and white nationalist talking points and ended up down the rabbit hole.

I have no problem saying that the media occasionally calls the wrong people alt right. But then I'm not going to go super contrarian reactionary and say that the dont exist and the whole thing is a lie. They are a real group, and they are fairly popular at this moment. How popular they end up? We will just have to see.

@Dynamo Frokane Well I sort of believe 'Trump supporter', doesn't always equate to Alt-Right. And alt-right or alt-left really never existed in the first place. There's a section of the left, that turned more Conservative -only- for social issues because of the extremely absurd being pushed further and further and actively taken seriously all the way to the top. Realizing the slippery slope fallacy is not really a fallacy, when it comes to pushing social agenda's.

And maybe, an even smaller group than that, got so disgusted at the anti-whiteness of modern culture that some ended up taking up their tactics but for themselves. But that's not really on the "right" side of politics. Not to get into the whole racist history/not actually switching side party thing. But it never was a staple of conservative politics, to treat others differently on anything but merit. (I know that's something you'll disagree with wholeheartedly, so agree to disagree.)

But, all the kek's and pepe meme's, this clearly never was a serious movement. But it IS clearly changing many people's mind. Which is why the younger generations are slowly changing into more conservative social politics. Which were never racist. (and thankfully more people are becoming libertarian, because I think people should be adapting into the non-aggression principal, to the LGBT movement and giving it at least basic tolerance and stop thinking prohibition will work for addictive drugs.) But I digress, I know you loathe the libertarian thing too.

How about we just agree the "general idea" of the Alt-Right being kind of a silly thing?

I appreciate the commentary, @Dynamo Frokane. The only counterargument I should note about the Alt-Right being subtle is that they are anything but that historically. There is a reason they are "proud white nationalists", but I can offer that the anons are indeed an open door that way. However, most normies, sheep, useful idiots, however you phrase them, by the numbers are not going to know or understand what a "4chan" is, and those who do in the coming population of Generation Z matured in the belly of the beast; they are her offspring, they know the world of the internet better than any of us likely.

This means several things, of which I note because they need be said. First, the way the Meme Wars operate is by agitating a small cluster of highly energized, motivated, skilled members and getting their increasing lessers to pass it on. By this ripple effect, by the time these "Alt-Right" concepts hit the regular person's radar, they have lost the kinetic energy, so to speak. The first exposure the layman will get is a news bit on how these "racist flyers" and "racist frog" are cropping up, or how the President of the United States is a bad person for retweeting a meme. This is why certain memes fly and others do not.

Second, the actual Far Right community does not have the understanding or foothold to accomplish this mission of being manipulative and subtle. The anons are a very different breed, in that they have become wielders of psychology and social dynamics better than multiple government agencies and programs dedicated to this. Mind you these are the group of people who "do it for the lulz" and to watch people flail, fail, and fall on their swords. The right-wing extremes? They haven't that broadness or channel to call on, in that their motives are set and defined, difficult to reword and rebuild as palatable or rational.

Third, I do not believe the Far Right to be significantly more populous so much as I believe the world and society took an incredibly powerful candle to those dark recesses. The same can be said from the other perspective, in that there are plenty of Alt-Left members, but they were dormant and in hiding for quite some time. When the attention, especially their martyring, they became slightly more powerful​ and obvious, at minimum more active. The Alt-Right camp I can safely say mirrored this reaction to a far, far more weak note; they had no foil, no enemy to vanquish, not like their ideological mirror did in Donald Trump.

As for the anons in this, the best way to perceive them is that they are the human subconscious allowed to run rampant without any real consequence or demerit. They will be as edgy as they like, as vile and violent as they please, and as nasty as desired. Much of this is just a conduit for what people contain in themselves daily, the neurosis, the same energy an artist can draw on creatively or a thinking mind to scheme. Their strong reaction to the social justice movement and their "playing" into the Alt-Right is more just matter of circumstance. For many, many years before the "Rise of the Right", anons were legendary for their Nazi roleplay, obscenity and hatred for just about anything mainstream.

At best you can view them as overlapping circles in a diagram, in that they share a pool of people, but not many. More than before because of how things were mechanized by the political climate, but what else could one expect? When you wish to turn an entire nation into a light authoritarian state backed by social progressivism, the other extreme will gain ground and mobilize.

@mdk I wonder if a lot of the people voting no just did it to troll kessler, because you know he's white nationalist and that's not particularly popular with people on the left or the right, surprise surprise.

I know literally nothing about the guy, so maybe you're right. Still -- the undoubtedly-deliberate-trolling of "It's okay to be white" has spawned a remarkably enthusiastic and seemingly heart-felt rebuke from, like, actual people. WELL -- from police and corporations, which are both (I think?) technically people. But also twitter, which, like, SOME OF THEM are people. So... statistically, probably people, yeah, I'll stick with that.

@mdk Understanding who the guy is, is definitely important to understanding the context of the twitter poll, a bit more research is needed to better understand the point I'm making too.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity Well my counter argument is that while historically the loudest and proudest of the far-right white supremacists would march loudly and say "white power" with no apology, there is absolutely no doubt that this form of white nationalism in modern times is a little more subversive and strategic on how they proclaim their views. It's definately a mixed bag. People like Andrew Anglin of the daily stormer is an open Neo-Nazi who celebrates, hitler's birthday. But someone like Richard Spencer calls himself an 'identitarian' and considers his veiws to be fairly mainstream. These are two ways of presenting the same argument. And they both consider themselves to be Alt-Right.

Understanding the individuals in this group is very important in understanding not only their motives but also their tactics and behavior. But I agree with you in the sense that there was already a bunch of WNs out there, and these people aren't nessecarily aren't just regular people who woke up to become racists. I did a lengthy post about stormfront a couple pages back, did you read it?

@SleepingSilence Okay so strawman right away, I never have once said that true conservative ideals aren't about treating people with merit, you might have me confused with someone else, but it invalidates your perspective a bit when you say something like that.

Also there are many things happening at the same time, yes there is a general meme culture getting bigger and bigger and yes not all of it has to do with Donald trump. But the Alt-Right definitely does exist and is very easily defined group, so no I wont agree that it never existed.

Remember Alt-Right wasn't created on some 4 chan board it was coined by Richard Spencer himself back in 2008. As the break off of the most extremist wing of the Ron Paul movement, which he described himself. Its a group that preaches white nationalism, and they don't even try to deny this. If you don't like the term alt right because at has been used incorrectly regarding some people then fine, I don't like it either.

But Richard Spencer, Vox Day, Red Ice Radio, Baked Alaska, Tara McCarthy, Millennial Woes, Andrew Anglin, Kyle Chapman, Jason Kessler, Matthew Hiembach, Bre Fauchex, Brittany Pettibone, Emily Youcis, Matt Forney, Matthew Drake, Nick Feuntes, James Allsup, David Sedner, Nathan Damiago.... and I honestly could name more but you get the point. All of these people are self admitted white nationalists/white identitarians and they all call themselves the alt right. There is no universe in which the Alt Right aren't clearly defined and dont exist.

Now I'm not for a second saying that they are as big as they claim to be or that they have any real power in government, as I don't equate these people with the general republican party. In fact most of these guys do their recruiting from apolitical but disenfranchised male groups such as gamer-gaters, mens rights activists, and 4 chan trolls who to be honest, arent really democratic or republican, just a lot of directionless young people who want to be edgy. If you don't know who the people who I've stated above are, please do a little bit of research on them before responding to me so that we are on the same page.

Perhaps, but how many people are they realistically fooling? They are not, like their opposition, able to leverage the victim mentality, that perspective of being owed anything or, more importantly, in modern times the claim that anything tangentially related to the actual Alt-Right can be of benefit to the people. This movement and concept is not populist, not even close to the social justice front or the backers of the President. The argument of subversive, quiet manipulation does not work well for a system that has ties contrary to that.

People by and large have not and will not, as a mainstream, legitimately fall for it. It sounds too risque by nature to their ears, especially with how the media has made the Far Right some unified front. In all honesty, I believe anyone liable to be swayed to that side at this point, or prior in recent times, was already headed down that way regardless. The "Trump movement" is only tangentially related, the same with the internet communities responsible for memetic warfare that helped seing the election. Their only real commonality is their enemy in socialist, communist and authoritarian leanings; the "Alt-Right" and the Alt-Right are still very much at odds.

Speaking from a threat assessment perspective, white nationalists and radical right-wing extrememists do not classically or currently recruit using these methods. They have a target audience and the little overlap they do have with other groups was only magnified by the spread of their common threat. Realistically, you are more under threat of radical Islam, even without the Islamic State, and the Alt-Left. That is the most I can say to those.

As for what you had to say about Stormfront, I do not recall; I might well have ignored that page between all the bickering, @Dynamo Frokane.

@Dynamo Frokane I'm almost 100% certain we've gotten into a party switching side argument. If I'm mistaken and you're aware of that being false. Then my mistake.

I know there was a Ron Paul movement. But Ron Paul wouldn't agree with almost anything about Trump. I also never saw that term being used back then either. But I guess I'll assume that's the case.

I acknowledge this term, like SJW was used positively by their own. I suppose they can -call- themselves something and it still not being a real concrete thing. Or it's a new term for something that already exists. If all that defines alt-right is white supremacist, just call them that. What's even the difference?

Gamergate, was not a political movement. It only became one by it's opposition and they failed spectacularly. And men's right activists are at least dealing with problems that actually/actively exist in the united states.

Well merely looking at wikipedia for 5 seconds says that richard spencer coined the term in 2010 not 2008. In November 2008, Paul Gottfried addressed the H. L. Mencken Club about what he called "the alternative right." I'd suggest learning more about Gamergate. And get past the trolling on either side, to see what it actually was about and the failings and lies actively spread of media, government and entertainment.

@mdk Understanding who the guy is, is definitely important to understanding the context of the twitter poll, a bit more research is needed to better understand the point I'm making too.

I..... need to do more research to understand the concept of trolling? I've been in this thread long enough, I think I get the concept by now.

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

I..... need to do more research to understand the concept of trolling? I've been in this thread long enough, I think I get the concept by now.

You dont know who jason kessler is, so your understandin of the context on a poll presented by him is limited, I dont know how else to tell ya, you need more info. You can be stubborn about it but dont start bashing the thread cause you dont have a decent response.