Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[SleepingSilence]

"no u" - SleepingSilence

It was a joke, you don't heff to be mad.

@Pepperm1nts

No u.

[Polymorpheus]

.

[Penny]

@catchamber It is so against the law that it is physician assisted suicide is legal in Oregon. Or something.

[POOHEAD189]

I believe that assisted suicides are felonies in many states, but the suicide attempt by the person in question is only considered illegal under common law.

[SleepingSilence]

It is so against the law that it is physician assisted suicide is legal in Oregon. Or something.

@Penny

Yes, you're so educated. Tumblr genders are real and all that.

@catchamber

My mistake, I was under false impressions from news I've read regarding the topic. It's a little more complicated than I (or Penny) implied.

(Paraphrasing:)

Under modern U.S. law, suicide is no longer a crime. Some states, however, classify attempted suicide as a criminal act, but prosecutions are rare, especially when the offender is terminally ill.

The "some states" part is much more important than was emphasized there, however.

A case that reached the Virginia Supreme Court, Wackwitz v. Roy (referred to in Wikipedia) pivoted about the legality of suicide. From the decision:

We are aware of only one legislative enactment that addresses suicide as a crime. Code § 55-4 provides that "[n]o suicide ... shall work a corruption of blood or forfeiture of estate." Thus, although the General Assembly has rescinded the punishment for suicide, it has not decriminalized the act. Suicide, therefore, remains a common law crime in Virginia as it does in a number of other common-law states. See, e.g., Southern Life & Health Ins. Co. v. Wynn, 29 Ala.App. 207, 194 So. 421 (1940); Commonwealth v. Mink, 123 Mass. 422 (1877); State v. Willis, 255 N.C. 473, 121 S.E.2d 854 (1961); State v. Carney, 69 N.J.L. 478, 55 A. 44 (1903); State v. Levelle, 34 S.C. 120, 13 S.E. 319 (1891), overruled on other grounds by State v. Torrence, 406 S.E.2d 315 (S.C.1991).

To constitute suicide at common law, however, a person who takes his own life "must be of years of discretion, and in his *865 senses." 5 William Blackstone, Commentaries *189; accord Plunkett v. Supreme Conclave, 105 Va. 643, 646, 55 S.E. 9, 10 (1906) ("`To constitute suicide at common law the person must be of years of discretion and of sound mind.'"). This common law rule comports with a contemporary definition of suicide. Suicide is defined as "the deliberate and intentional destruction of his own life by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind." Webster's Third New International Dictionary 2286 (1981).

I believe that the "only one legislative enactment" refers merely to Virginia state law, not nation-wide law.

Thus, in Virginia, and other states, suicide could be treated as a common-law crime. However, in United States v. Hudson, it was ruled that such common-law convictions are not allowed at the federal level.

---

Also, on assisted suicide. Yes, illegal in most places.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_suicid…

[Penny]

From Wikipedia:

United States

Historically, various states listed the act of suicide as a felony, but these policies were sparsely enforced. In the late 1960s, eighteen U.S. states had no laws against suicide.[129] By the late 1980s, thirty of the fifty states had no laws against suicide or suicide attempts but every state had laws declaring it to be a felony to aid, advise or encourage another person to commit suicide.[130] By the early 1990s only two states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification.[citation needed] In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in 1992. Wackwitz v. Roy, 418 S.E.2d 861 (Va. 1992)). As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the late suicidal person's family in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded monetary damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[131] Some American legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, former President of the ACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[132] Physician-assisted suicide is legal in some states.[133] For the terminally ill, it is legal in the state of Oregon under the Oregon Death with Dignity Act. In Washington state, it became legal in 2009, when a law modeled after the Oregon act, the Washington Death with Dignity Act was passed. A patient must be diagnosed as having less than six months to live, be of sound mind, make a request orally and in writing, have it approved by two different doctors, then wait 15 days and make the request again. A doctor may prescribe a lethal dose of a medication but may not administer it.[134]

In California, medical facilities are empowered or required to commit anyone whom they believe to be suicidal for evaluation and treatment.[135]

In Maryland, it is an open question as to whether suicide is illegal. In 2018, a Maryland man was convicted of attempted suicide.[136][137][138][139]

So by illegal in the United States, you mean sometimes illegal in some of the states? Just looking for clarification...

[SleepingSilence]

So by illegal in the United States, you mean sometimes illegal in some of the states? Just looking for clarification...

@Penny

My post literally goes over what most of that Wikipedia page went through. Yes sometimes, law doesn't make a whole lot of sense and is sporadic. Go figure. (Hell I even posted, a wikipedia page.)

Though even then, from eons ago. My argument was this shouldn't be encouraged, its a tragedy every time someone losses all hope, it demoralizes countries, medical data that people do it for is often wrong, and it often fails and costs us billions. Which was what you disagreed with. Without really giving me any counter evidence, which I assume just means "feelings trump facts and data."

[Penny]

Though even then, from eons ago. My argument was this shouldn't be encouraged, its a tragedy every time someone losses all hope, it demoralizes countries, medical data that people do it for is often wrong, and it often fails and costs us billions. Which was what you disagreed with. Without really giving me any counter evidence, which I assume just means "feelings trump facts and data."

@SleepingSilence

I'm really not seeing how any of that is an argument against a responsible euthanasia option such as the one the Netherlands uses. It clearly hasn't pushed them to the brink of economic ruin.

https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/netherlands-once-again-top-10-happiest-countries-world

They are still in the top 10 happiest countries, so I guess it cant be THAT demoralizing.

[Penny]

Yes, you're so educated.

@SleepingSilence

Thank you :) I am glad to have had all those years of college paid for by the government though. Scary here.

[SleepingSilence]

@Penny Medical data/diagnosis being wrong? You don't understand why that may be a problem for assisted suicides of cancer patients who don't have cancer?

Personal happiness means nothing when it comes to actual countries freedoms, wealth, growth and otherwise. Switzerland is considered that and it's the rap/crime rates are on the constant rise...

dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/10/25…

nltimes.nl/2016/03/03/stats-show-big-…

nypost.com/2017/03/22/that-world-happ…

I am glad to have had all those years of college paid for by the government though. Scary here.

@Penny

I'm sure it is. <.< With the constantly dropping crime rate, abundant living conditions, no chance in hell for food shortages. Cleaner environment than Europe. Not even remotely showing off utter ignorance of the world around you.

[Penny]

@SleepingSilence I'm sorry I should have taken your demonstrated inability to pick things up from context into account. I was referring to the cost of higher education here being scary.

[SleepingSilence]

I was referring to the cost of higher education here being scary.

@Penny

Yeah. It's still stupid for not making a lick of sense. <.<

[POOHEAD189]

[Penny]

@POOHEAD189 Russian elections totally legitimate unlike those US ones with millions of illegal votes!

[POOHEAD189]

@Penny Thank God for the electoral college! Without the good men and women voting against the nation's interests, we'd be in some kind of a...a...DEMOCRACY!

[Penny]

Speaking of Stormy Daniels, Trump does not deserve to be slut shamed for sleeping with a porn star. I wonder how the values voters people are feeling about all this. Maybe it will open their minds a little.

Also why didn't I think to make all my exs sign NDAs?! It is so obvious in hindsight!

[IceHeart]

@Penny Thank God for the electoral college! Without the good men and women voting against the nation's interests, we'd be in some kind of a...a...DEMOCRACY!

@POOHEAD189

Thank God for the electoral college, without it we really would be a closer to a true democracy which is basically the same thing as mob rule. Real democracies are always a bad idea and very quickly fall to ruin since all minority groups quickly get trampled underfoot by the majority. Gays would never have gotten the rights they do have in a democracy for example.

Electoral college is messy, but it is there to ensure mod rule is not the way to decide things. Also voting really needs to be handled better to make sure fraud is at an absolute minimum. Too many examples of questionable voting to say there isn't a serious case of election fraud and illegal votes being done in quite a few states.

[POOHEAD189]

There's been so many porn stars that Trump was with/molested, I can't recall if Stormy Daniels was the one he was with while he was married to someone else.

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Thank God for the electoral college, without it we really would be a closer to a true democracy which is basically the same thing as mob rule. Real democracies are always a bad idea and very quickly fall to ruin since all minority groups quickly get trampled underfoot by the majority. Gays would never have gotten the rights they do have in a democracy for example.

Electoral college is messy, but it is there to ensure mod rule is not the way to decide things. Also voting really needs to be handled better to make sure fraud is at an absolute minimum. Too many examples of questionable voting to say there isn't a serious case of election fraud and illegal votes being done in quite a few states.

@IceHeart

It was more a jab at how the electoral college is run than my criticizing a republic. Though a few democracies have done well over history, at least for a time. I don't think you can argue that America is Great again at the moment.

[Penny]

What we really need is Athenian style ostracism! How much fun would that be!