Hidden 8 days ago 8 days ago Post by SleepingSilence
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I was going to post this long before TLOU2 released. But I thought making a quick and easy joke at the game's expense would get someone(s) up my ass about it. So I'm posting my belated thoughts now, and giving a general update of my effort to play more games.

Hollow Knight is fucking amazing.

Seriously though, Last Of Us 2's story is just bad.

But I actually posted to say that Steam's Summer Sale is on. (Plus you'll get $5 dollars off a $30 purchase.)

So I basically got Ori and the Blind Forest for free. (Along with various games that have been sitting on my wishlist for a while.) And while I'm talking about platformers, the next game I'm attempting to get engrossed in is Owlboy. Where what I imagine is the first real level, contains an "optional boss" which is guaranteed to be fought by any player. Because it's the only way forward in the middle of an empty room, that ends up being practically impossible with a mouse+keyboard. (Something others confirmed when I looked it up, just to make sure I wasn't going insane.) But quick speed-bump aside, I'm looking forward to continuing.

Since I stopped playing The Talos Principle fairly early on, because 'the themes' were starting to feel even more tedious than the puzzles. <.<'

Also, assuming you have friends to play it with, For The King continues to be my go-to weekend experience. Since it might be the first game of its type that I got all my friends into playing.

Though I'm also playing Smite now, upon a friend's insistence. So any chance of getting a better MOBA to play after Blizzard has become dead to me, is something that I'll at least be keeping my eye on.

And yes I'm still very behind on games. But the good news is, I probably won't have to worry about too much stuff coming out for the equally fugly 'next-gen' consoles.

Also, starting a betting pool on Cyberpunk 2077. What will it be? A masterpiece. A 'Watch Dogs'. Or a 'No Man's Sky' (before it supposedly got good.) My money is firmly on mediocre at best.
Hidden 8 days ago Post by Fabricant451
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Also, starting a betting pool on Cyberpunk 2077. What will it be? A masterpiece. A 'Watch Dogs'. Or a 'No Man's Sky' (before it supposedly got good.) My money is firmly on mediocre at best.


Well it's made by CD Projekt Red so it will be fucking overlong and a chore and it will constantly feel 'off' playing it movement and combat wise but will be seen as a masterpiece despite a story that will likely not dig much further than "corporations bad" but still the overtly sociopolitical nature of the genre will be overlooked by a disproportionately high number of players because of breathtaking Keanu Reeves and bright colors.

So like a 4/5.

Anyway to cycle back to TLOU2 for a moment, the problem(s) with that game aren't the story. It's just like...really boring and almost comical how one minute they'll show a group of enemies talking about religiously murdering people but then you kill one of them and another one pisses his pants in fear as if stabbing them in the neck is somehow too far but tying them up and beating them and then also slitting their throats is perfectly fine. This game wants to do something like the dogtags from MGS2 except in MGS2 you could get through the whole game nonlethal and in TLOU2 it's actively more difficult to do so and having faceless personalityless characters scream "OH NO THEY KILLED CHUCK!" doesn't make me or I assume anyone else feel bad for having killed them especially given that the setting is constantly a 'kill or be killed' situation and you are actively being sought out specifically to be killed.

Also it's fucking crazy the amount of gameplay to narrative disconnect there is since like...Ellie has a knife on her the entire fucking time but until you find a book and take a bunch of pills to unlock 'faster stealth kills' she never once thinks "Oh yeah, maybe if I slit their throat instead of choke them it'd be, like, way less effort."

Naughty Dog makes boring games.

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Hidden 8 days ago 8 days ago Post by Dolerman
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TLOU2 is no masterpiece but then neither was the first one.

The voice acting is stellar and some of the story beats are interesting, but if this was a 'gritty' movie or tv series it'd be forgotten in a week. The fact that it's lauded as masterful storytelling says more about your average game than the writing itself. When it does get made into a cringy 'dark' HBO series this much will become apparent.

TLOU2 is at its best when it leans into being what it wants to be: a cynical, angsty bloodbath. Playing as a knifey iron lesbian filled with piss, vinegar and adolescent fury as she carves her way through drab psuedo-military survivalists and Hare-Krishna serial killers is even more fun than it sounds.

As far as the plot backlash, 50% is coming from people who didn't even play the game. 35% is coming from those who stopped playing it after Joel died and 15% stopped playing it after you switch to Abby. And no, watching an obviously scripted let's play where some obnoxious internet personality reiterates that it trash during every cutscene is not an honest way to experience the game. Joel died because he was a hateful, cynical, selfish, broken headcase who wanted another chance at feeling like a dad by any means necessary. But even if he was a paragon of virtue, it's the fucking apocalypse. The aggressively ever-present threat of death doesn't care about your character development.

You can't have it both ways. You can't love a story because of it's cold, unflinching portrayal of dystopian existence where the life of your loved ones can be snatched away in an instant, and then be pissed when the life of a character you love gets snatched away in an instant. If you feel entitled to have your sexy, rural, gravelly voiced daddy figure be immortal to the repercussions of his actions then you never wanted a post apocalyptic story, you wanted a survivalist power fantasy.

TLOU2's story is about as good as the first one. It's fine with moments of greatness. The gameplay is better and it looks better. It's less linear, but then there is more heel dragging with the flashback scenes. The 'Woke Agenda Neil Cuckman SJW' bullshit is just that, bullshit.

8.3/10 for the game and Abby is hot, would bang 8.5/10

EDIT: Oh and no one asked me but Cyberpunk2077 is gonna be a massive letdown.

I'tll be an over-ambitious mess of loads of different mechanics that aren't polished enough to enjoy on their own. The illusion of size and choice will obscure wonky shooting mechanics, floaty jumps and bullet sponge enemies. The dialouge will probably be cringe and the story will either stick to the most basic anarchist, edgy hacker anti-hero tropes known to man or will overreach into something more complex and become nonsensical.

The game will be pretty but in the end it will just feel like a less polished Deus Ex in a more lifeless Los Santos.

Cyberpunk 2077 will be the Skyrim the next decade.
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Hidden 8 days ago Post by Fabricant451
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and Abby is hot, would bang 8.5/10


I can't comment on the other stuff since I've not finished it (though I agree with, like, most of it) but this is the best take and fuck ya'll if you disagree.
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Mid season update for MW dropped. Too bad I'm uninstalling it because I'm not buying an external hard drive or deleting the only other game on my PS4 just to play the game.
Hidden 7 days ago Post by Fabricant451
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Has it reached 200 gigs yet
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Has it reached 200 gigs yet




One more.
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Hidden 7 days ago Post by Dolerman
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@SleepingSilence

TLOU2 is no masterpiece but then neither was the first one.

The voice acting is stellar and some of the story beats are interesting, but if this was a 'gritty' movie or tv series it'd be forgotten in a week. The fact that it's lauded as masterful storytelling says more about your average game than the writing itself. When it does get made into a cringy 'dark' HBO series this much will become apparent.

TLOU2 is at its best when it leans into being what it wants to be: a cynical, angsty bloodbath. Playing as a knifey iron lesbian filled with piss, vinegar and adolescent fury as she carves her way through drab psuedo-military survivalists and Hare-Krishna serial killers is even more fun than it sounds.

As far as the plot backlash, 50% is coming from people who didn't even play the game. 35% is coming from those who stopped playing it after Joel died and 15% stopped playing it after you switch to Abby. And no, watching an obviously scripted let's play where some obnoxious internet personality reiterates that it trash during every cutscene is not an honest way to experience the game. Joel died because he was a hateful, cynical, selfish, broken headcase who wanted another chance at feeling like a dad by any means necessary. But even if he was a paragon of virtue, it's the fucking apocalypse. The aggressively ever-present threat of death doesn't care about your character development.

You can't have it both ways. You can't love a story because of it's cold, unflinching portrayal of dystopian existence where the life of your loved ones can be snatched away in an instant, and then be pissed when the life of a character you love gets snatched away in an instant. If you feel entitled to have your sexy, rural, gravelly voiced daddy figure be immortal to the repercussions of his actions then you never wanted a post apocalyptic story, you wanted a survivalist power fantasy.

TLOU2's story is about as good as the first one. It's fine with moments of greatness. The gameplay is better and it looks better. It's less linear, but then there is more heel dragging with the flashback scenes. The 'Woke Agenda Neil Cuckman SJW' bullshit is just that, bullshit.

8.3/10 for the game and Abby is hot, would bang 8.5/10

EDIT: Oh and no one asked me but Cyberpunk2077 is gonna be a massive letdown.

I'tll be an over-ambitious mess of loads of different mechanics that aren't polished enough to enjoy on their own. The illusion of size and choice will obscure wonky shooting mechanics, floaty jumps and bullet sponge enemies. The dialouge will probably be cringe and the story will either stick to the most basic anarchist, edgy hacker anti-hero tropes known to man or will overreach into something more complex and become nonsensical.

The game will be pretty but in the end it will just feel like a less polished Deus Ex in a more lifeless Los Santos.

Cyberpunk 2077 will be the Skyrim the next decade.


Forgot to tag you because you asked about Cyberpunk 2077
Hidden 7 days ago Post by SleepingSilence
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Cyberpunk 2077 will be the Skyrim the next decade.


@Dolerman It will be endlessly re-released and fixed with mods? :P

While I assume that's meant to be positive hyperbole/sarcasm. I also know too many people that think Skyrim is an overrated piece of crap. (Though hundreds of hours of play within it, I'm clearly not among them.) But I do highly doubt most things can become as ubiquitous as Skyrim. For better or worse. I also kind of doubt it will even be as successful as a 'Witcher 3'. But time will tell, I suppose.

Admittedly, unlike when Watch Dogs trailer released, I don't really have any hype or desire to play Cyberpunk 2077 myself. So I guess I don't mind whether it's any good or not.

Although I know many people who consider CD Project Red, one of the last "good Triple A" companies. Since so many others have been so greedy with their monetization practices lately. (Among other/darker things.) So after winning eight awards since 2013's trailer, before it's even come out, perhaps it does matter how it turns out for those people.


And just for giggles, here's something related to CD Project Red.

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<Snipped quote>

Although I know many people who consider CD Project Red, one of the last "good Triple A" companies. Since so many others have been so greedy with their monetization practices lately.(Among other/darker things.)


Really like who? Naughty Dog just put out a successful game, I haven't been swindled into any or microtransactions in TLOU2 or did you mean something else?

Skyrim isn't a bad game but it's definitely overrated and unpolished. I do agree some people give it too much shit though.

Hidden 7 days ago 7 days ago Post by SleepingSilence
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Really like who? Naughty Dog just put out a successful game. I haven't been swindled into any or microtransactions in TLOU2 or did you mean something else?

A few people I know, both on the forum, and not. But I digress. I definitely wasn't attaching that thought to TLOU2 specifically. But I mean "successful" games can still be severely lessened by greedy practices or shitty companies.

And TLOU2 still has the typical/several "digital overpriced" editions that necessitates an article like a "Release Day Buying Guide". (Five versions in total. Plus separate art.) And if we're taking about Naughty Dog here. They have plenty of their own allegations of crunch and poor working conditions. (Aka 70 percent of their staff supposedly quitting.) Plus, you also can't say the game itself didn't have it's own troubles with delays, censorship of others and PR problems of their own doing.
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Although I know many people who consider CD Project Red, one of the last "good Triple A" companies.


That's because they present themselves as consumer friendly because they give away shit like 'hair style: ponytail' for free (while charging for DLC except it's called an expansion pack for the max cred) and have cultivated this 'not like other devs' persona despite them having fewer active employees than other AAA studios yet still have insane crunch that gets swept under the rug because at the end of the day many gamers don't actually give a shit about crunch time if they like the end result.

CD Projekt Red putting a soundtrack and goodies in every copy of Cyberpunk doesn't absolve them of their behind the scenes sins, or at least it shouldn't but at the end of the day that's the only thing that will matter because of the whole 'unlike other devs, we care about the consumer!'
Hidden 7 days ago 7 days ago Post by Dolerman
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<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>

That's because they present themselves as consumer friendly because they give away shit like 'hair style: ponytail' for free (while charging for DLC except it's called an expansion pack for the max cred) and have cultivated this 'not like other devs' persona despite them having fewer active employees than other AAA studios yet still have insane crunch that gets swept under the rug because at the end of the day many gamers don't actually give a shit about crunch time if they like the end result.

CD Projekt Red putting a soundtrack and goodies in every copy of Cyberpunk doesn't absolve them of their behind the scenes sins, or at least it shouldn't but at the end of the day that's the only thing that will matter because of the whole 'unlike other devs, we care about the consumer!'


<Snipped quote by Dolerman>
A few people I know, both on the forum, and not. But I digress. I definitely wasn't attaching that thought to TLOU2 specifically. But I mean "successful" games can still be severely lessened by greedy practices or shitty companies.

And TLOU2 still has the typical/several "digital overpriced" editions that necessitates an article like a "Release Day Buying Guide". (Five versions in total. Plus separate art.) And if we're taking about Naughty Dog here. They have plenty of their own allegations of crunch and poor working conditions. (Aka 70 percent of their staff supposedly quitting.) Plus, you also can't say the game itself didn't have it's own troubles with delays, censorship of others and PR problems of their own doing.


Plus if pricey pre-orders are the mark of a shitty company, then CD Projekt red is going to be in a lot of bad books when Cyberpunk 2077 releases a 100 dollar ultimate edition that has a keanu reeves action figure or a pink glowstick.

>Plus, you also can't say the game itself didn't have it's own troubles with delays,

Cyberpunk 2077 is on it's 3rd delay. But even if it wasn't there is sort of a pandemic happening.

>censorship of others

Is this the review embargo? Doesn't it make sense to keep a game with heavy plot twists under wraps as long as possible?

>PR problems of their own doing

Not aware of this, elaborate?
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CD Projekt Red putting a soundtrack and goodies in every copy of Cyberpunk doesn't absolve them of their behind the scenes sins, or at least it shouldn't but at the end of the day that's the only thing that will matter because of the whole 'unlike other devs, we care about the consumer!'


Mind, I'm not exactly amongst their fanbase. And I honestly don't know if I've even played a single one of their games myself. (At best I've watched my friend play the original two Witcher games and look bored out of his mind. <.<')

Though I agree that good things don't necessarily absolve any company of past and/or current wrongdoings.
Hidden 7 days ago 7 days ago Post by SleepingSilence
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Plus if pricey pre-orders are the mark of a shitty company, then CD Projekt red is going to be in a lot of bad books when Cyberpunk 2077 releases a 100 dollar ultimate edition that has a keanu reeves action figure or a pink glowstick.

Well I mean when you have anything resembling this...

Then yeah, you're milking it just a bit too much, don't ya think?

And frankly, pre-order culture for digital media is just plain retarded as it is...

Cyberpunk 2077 is on it's 3rd delay. But even if it wasn't there is sort of a pandemic happening.


Yeah see, when I assume a game is going to be mediocre at best. I don't know what you think you're saying when you're telling me that the game has also had several delays and staff problems like TLOU2. Yes, yes it has? And that's usually not a good sign in this industry, is it?

Is this the review embargo? Doesn't it make sense to keep a game with heavy plot twists under wraps as long as possible?


Well not being able to review half of your game for a review is on par with what Ubisoft did with Middle Earth Shadow Of War. And yeah, I don't think that's particularly beneficial to anyone either. But no, I'm talking about false DCMA censorship of youtube channels that covered the leaks.

Not aware of this, elaborate?


Numerous things said and done by Naughty Dog and TLOU2's creators. But a lighter one that comes to mind, which is something I'm aware of because of Jim Sterling, was one writer was comparing TLOU2's story to Schindler's List. And it's director directly attacking several high profile individuals for chiming in to mock that notion.
Hidden 7 days ago Post by Dolerman
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@SleepingSilence

>Yeah see, when I assume a game is going to be mediocre at best. I don't know what you think you're saying when you're telling me that the game has also had several delays and staff problems like TLOU2. Yes, yes it has? And that's usually not a good sign in this industry, is it?

The game is made by CD Projekt Red who you were just saying that some people were holding up as one of the last 'good' trip A companies. That sort of falls on it's face when its doing the exact same thing you just accused 'shittier' companies of doing.

>But no, I'm talking about false DCMA censorship of youtube channels that covered the leaks.

From what I know about DMCA's you are well within your right if someone is using your intellectual property and it isn't fair use. So I don't think that would count as false whether you agree with it or not.

>Numerous things said and done by Naughty Dog and TLOU2's creators.

None of which hurt the sales of the game very much. If the only people who liked this game were the cricitcs then it wouldn't be the fastest selling PS4 exclusive in existence.

>high profile individuals

Why do I get the feeling these 'high profile' individuals are reaction youtubers who have no standing in the game industry? Feel free to correct me if they aren't though.

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Well not being able to review half of your game for a review is on par with what Ubisoft did with Middle Earth Shadow Of War. And yeah, I don't think that's particularly beneficial to anyone either.


Reviewers weren't allowed to actually mention specifics about Metal Gear Solid 2's story and the marketing actively lied. Deceptive marketing and review guidelines are nothing new and if there weren't any leaks then I guarantee reviewers wouldn't even mention that the game has two playable characters actually.

Also neither MGS 2 or TLOU2 suffered critically (professionally, anyway) or commercially because of this.
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The game is made by CD Projekt Red who you were just saying that some people were holding up as one of the last 'good' trip A companies. That sort of falls on it's face when its doing the exact same thing you just accused 'shittier' companies of doing.


Some. But not me. And you make it sounds, like I'm among them. But even then, if a gun is held to my head to pick a side, yeah plenty of companies have been shittier to its fans, its workers, its games, and its critics than CD Project Red. And I'd say Naughty Dog is among them. Even regardless of TLOU2.

From what I know about DMCA's you are well within your right if someone is using your intellectual property and it isn't fair use. So I don't think that would count as false whether you agree with it or not.


No, you don't have a right to flag someone's channel because they merely talk about leaks. That is not "using your IP", nor "not fair use", which critique specifically falls under.

None of which hurt the sales of the game very much. If the only people who liked this game were the cricitcs then it wouldn't be the fastest selling PS4 exclusive in existence.


So, like, we all know that bad things can still sell well right? Because I feel like the "argumentum ad populum" is the worst kind of fallacy. For in the same breath, I can say, in the second week, the game received an 80% drop in sales. Meaning, after the reviews were out, and the people who likely pre-ordered it before most of the drama unfolded had their copy. Also compared to the first game in the series, that's less than half of it's overall numbers.

So does that mean anything necessarily? *shrug* But buying a game, is also not equivalent to liking it either. Since many individuals never even see background drama, as you admit to be among them. When in reality, sometimes it can be bad enough that it *would've* changed one's mind. But I digress.

Why do I get the feeling these 'high profile' individuals are reaction youtubers who have no standing in the game industry? Feel free to correct me if they aren't though.


Short answer? No. ^-^'

But, would your opinion change regardless of how valuable people consider said individuals in the industry? I reason not.
Hidden 7 days ago 7 days ago Post by SleepingSilence
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Reviewers weren't allowed to actually mention specifics about Metal Gear Solid 2's story and the marketing actively lied. Deceptive marketing and review guidelines are nothing new and if there weren't any leaks then I guarantee reviewers wouldn't even mention that the game has two playable characters actually.

Also neither MGS 2 or TLOU2 suffered critically (professionally, anyway) or commercially because of this.


You know, I'm actually fine with the concept of putting fake scenes in trailers. (In the way Marvel movies, or even TLOU2 did.) Even if you have to admit that you justifiably can make your audience feel cheated. Though in gaming, deceptive marketing tends to be a little more dubious and conniving. Like a Watch Dogs/No Man's Sky/Aliens:Colonal Marines.

And, argumentum ad populum aside, since I just went over it with someone else. Say whatever you want to say about MGS2 and their "writer", but that game was far more ambitious in its aim than TLOU2's 'revenge bad' plot.

Not that I'm saying you're making that comparison per say. But, does Naughty Dog suck less as a company for the things its done, if a game sells well?

And it's not exactly unique as a Naughty Dog game in that regard, since Uncharted 4 is far more successful in sales. And has a much better in combined/averaged critic/user scores. (Though I'd argue that has much to do with the price of tea in china, as any other sales figures regarding judgement of a game's quality, or how sketchy a particular company is.)
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@SleepingSilence

>Some. But not me. And you make it sounds, like I'm among them. But even then, if a gun is held to my head to pick a side, yeah plenty of companies have been shittier to its fans, its workers, its games, and its critics than CD Project Red. And I'd say Naughty Dog is among them. Even regardless of TLOU2.

But not in terms of Overpriced pre-orders and multiple delays which were your first two examples.

>No, you don't have a right to flag someone's channel because they merely talk about leaks. That is not "using your IP", nor "not fair use", which critique specifically falls under.

If the content of said leaks belongs to you, you certainly can. But if you're right we should see a major suing of naughty dog happening at any moment now, right?

>Well not being able to review half of your game for a review is on par with what Ubisoft did with Middle Earth Shadow Of War. And yeah, I don't think that's particularly beneficial to anyone either.

Spoilers are a thing and people prefer not to be spoiled. The gameplay doesn't change in the 2nd half of either of those games so there isn't a particular good reason to spoil the plot in you review.

>So, like, we all know that bad things can still sell well right?

Sure, but when the argument is that 'the players' hated the game, and only the critics were praising it. The numbers come out and that argument doesn't make sense. Unless you think all the critics bulk bought 100,000 copies of the game each? Did 'players' like the game or not?

>ince many individuals never even see background drama, as you admit to be among them.

When did I admit to that? And why do you think you're more privy to information freely accessible on the internet than anyone else? Do you work in the industry?

>Short answer? No. ^-^' But, would your opinion change regardless of how valuable people consider said individuals in the industry? I reason not.

Oh really? Okay tell me a valuable or 'high profile' person who isn't a youtuber or streamer who has been attacked by naughty dog publicly.

And yeah it would because however high profile you claim to be the obviously haven't had a lot of influence over the game in terms of sales or critical recpetion.
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