Heaven's Feel is finally getting an anime, which means they might redo the Fate route in the future.
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Good or bad?
@Bishop
Great analogy; I'm going to work with it too. Cause and effect is huge here, so let's say he sets it up and knows every way the dominos can fall, since they can choose to fall in different ways. It would be predestination (mostly) if he said "Okay, I'm going to influence every single decision." However, according to Christian theology, he allows people to make their own decisions for the most part, and allows the dominos to fall where they may to some degree. If I understand your view point, if God pushed the first domino and then looked away forever (a non-personal God), then free will would exist. But if God pushes every domino individually (controlling God), then free will doesn't not exist. But does an intervening God (personal God) who only acts part of the time allow for free will? I would say yes, because we are not bound to his will.
The reason he doesn't separate is because anyone who isn't forgiven is evil in this world, regardless of how many good acts they do. A thief is still a thief even if he saves a puppy. So "good people" is a bit of an oxymoron, because we are only made good if forgiven. And I would argue that people who do what he says generally do end up with a better outcome than those who don't, but it's not always a material thing. They end up making an impact and have joy rather than a lot of "stuff." If personal anecdotes won't help, then I'm not sure how you'd expect me to show it. Though I also would like to say that the idea of karma (good and evil come back to you) is actually very much widely known throughout the world and has something to it.
Great analogy; I'm going to work with it too. Cause and effect is huge here, so let's say he sets it up and knows every way the dominos can fall, since they can choose to fall in different ways. It would be predestination (mostly) if he said "Okay, I'm going to influence every single decision." However, according to Christian theology, he allows people to make their own decisions for the most part, and allows the dominos to fall where they may to some degree. If I understand your view point, if God pushed the first domino and then looked away forever (a non-personal God), then free will would exist. But if God pushes every domino individually (controlling God), then free will doesn't not exist. But does an intervening God (personal God) who only acts part of the time allow for free will? I would say yes, because we are not bound to his will.
The reason he doesn't separate is because anyone who isn't forgiven is evil in this world, regardless of how many good acts they do. A thief is still a thief even if he saves a puppy. So "good people" is a bit of an oxymoron, because we are only made good if forgiven. And I would argue that people who do what he says generally do end up with a better outcome than those who don't, but it's not always a material thing. They end up making an impact and have joy rather than a lot of "stuff." If personal anecdotes won't help, then I'm not sure how you'd expect me to show it. Though I also would like to say that the idea of karma (good and evil come back to you) is actually very much widely known throughout the world and has something to it.
@Bishop
I'm not sure that I'm following. Do you mind elaborating? If you mean that we're just a series of chemical reactions and there's no randomness to anything in a closed system, I'd be inclined to agree with you, except for the belief that bringing in a spiritual side of things breaks the whole "closed system" part of human behavior.
I'd like to reinforce that a large portion of Christians reject the notion of predestination.
Do you want empirical evidence or theological evidence? Because for the former, it's not exactly like we have case studies everywhere, since it's not generally the most newsworthy thing. I have personal examples if you want them, and a couple non-personal. But if you want situations where the structure of reality changed for someone who asked, I'm a bit more limited. That's not to say that I have nothing, but it makes my job more difficult for the aforementioned reasons. I'd also like to reinforce that it's not a direct good vs. bad person discussion. There are layers to it.
I'm not sure that I'm following. Do you mind elaborating? If you mean that we're just a series of chemical reactions and there's no randomness to anything in a closed system, I'd be inclined to agree with you, except for the belief that bringing in a spiritual side of things breaks the whole "closed system" part of human behavior.
I'd like to reinforce that a large portion of Christians reject the notion of predestination.
Do you want empirical evidence or theological evidence? Because for the former, it's not exactly like we have case studies everywhere, since it's not generally the most newsworthy thing. I have personal examples if you want them, and a couple non-personal. But if you want situations where the structure of reality changed for someone who asked, I'm a bit more limited. That's not to say that I have nothing, but it makes my job more difficult for the aforementioned reasons. I'd also like to reinforce that it's not a direct good vs. bad person discussion. There are layers to it.
@Bishop
I'm going to try to sum that up in fewer words to ensure that I understand your point correctly, so correct me if I'm wrong. You're essentially saying that because God knows the choices we're going to make ahead of time, we don't have the free will to make the decisions because he already knows the answer. But the problem with that argument is that it implies that knowledge of the future impedes our ability to make choices with free will. Consider it this way: If I'm talking to someone I know well, I know they're not going to take out a gun and shoot themselves (extreme example, but it works). Does the fact that I know they won't do that preventing them from doing so? No, they totally have the free will to do that if they want, but because I know them, I know how they will behave. My knowledge of what the future will be doesn't impact the self-contained structure of a situation. There's also another concept that being in every place at every time means that "knowing the future" becomes kind of irrelevant because forever is the present for God. I don't really have a strong opinion on this concept, but it's there.
The problem with that argument is that it assumes the good and the bad are treated equally by God. They're not.
I'm going to try to sum that up in fewer words to ensure that I understand your point correctly, so correct me if I'm wrong. You're essentially saying that because God knows the choices we're going to make ahead of time, we don't have the free will to make the decisions because he already knows the answer. But the problem with that argument is that it implies that knowledge of the future impedes our ability to make choices with free will. Consider it this way: If I'm talking to someone I know well, I know they're not going to take out a gun and shoot themselves (extreme example, but it works). Does the fact that I know they won't do that preventing them from doing so? No, they totally have the free will to do that if they want, but because I know them, I know how they will behave. My knowledge of what the future will be doesn't impact the self-contained structure of a situation. There's also another concept that being in every place at every time means that "knowing the future" becomes kind of irrelevant because forever is the present for God. I don't really have a strong opinion on this concept, but it's there.
The problem with that argument is that it assumes the good and the bad are treated equally by God. They're not.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see it He has already decided how everyone lives and dies. If something good happens to you or anyone, it has already been decided from the start of everything. I see it as a big plan and if something is to happen that He has put within the plan, then it will happen. He is all powerful after all so time is irrelevant to Him so he knows how everything goes and how everything will end up. Now, if he was really kind he wouldn't do small acts of "good luck" to give us a smile, no, he would do something major for everyone good of heart to help them in their life. But the fact that "luck" also smiles on evil people definitely shows that he views all humans the same, no matter if they are good or evil. SO you can't really say that he is "kind" in your definition of kindness.
I believe that the plan is already set and whatever is to be done or is in store for you , will be done. As I mentioned in an earlier post, praying to God is just foolish as you are asking Him to change His great plan. But praying and everything else was taken into consideration when he made His plan so I guess it matters somehow if He even decided to calculate how much you pray to Him in making His great plan.
But the truth is, from what we see, here on Earth he views and treats all humans the same, not giving special quirks or winks to anyone.
That's predestination and only a small minority hold that belief. It's not about small good things happening to everyone, because fortune and misfortune smiles on good and evil alike (and this is talked about on the Bible). So the question becomes: How do you tell? Well, it's pretty tough to know what is a direct intervention—however, according to the Bible, God is ultimately the source of all good things, so it's ultimately from him one way or another. There's no easy way to tell if he directly changed the situation in your favor, but probability sometimes helps.
This paragraph relies on the assumption of predestination, so I don't have much else to respond with other than that's not what Christian theology typically states. Some extreme Calvinist will lean that way, but I have the same problem with that belief that you do.
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I think it might be an angel or just good luck. I mean God has bigger things to worry about besides helping you to carry something heavy...
I mean, I don't get it how God and why would he find time to help you simple human while forsaking the others. Even if this human is a believer and prayer wouldn't he help those in real need first?
If you accept the reality of the God of the Bible, he exists as a personal God who created people because he loves us. And if you're all powerful and onnipresent, why not help people out? If he can do whatever he wants, it isn't outlandish to think that he just wants to be kind.
<Snipped quote by Fractured>
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<Snipped quote by Fractured>
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