Letter Bee

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

@Pagemaster
Precisely. I figured we'd set the bar pretty low already, thus my version of Japan here would slot in just fine. Ultimately, I think there are some double standards at play here.

@Lady Lascivious

Please don't accuse me of pursuing a double standard to benefit myself. I genuinely thought that my take on Muhammad Ali's Egypt was perfectly plausible, more plausible than a female peasant leader taking over Japan with no support from the elites or the Emperor using his moral authority against her and modernizing the country. If it isn't, I apologize, but I already brought forth evidence that my alternate history was at least at the outer edges of plausibility.

Nevertheless, if the premise of the RP is irreparably implausible and proven to be so, then I will drop my argument. As it is, however, I already gave you my counterargument and it hasn't been disproved yet.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

@Letter Beeyes

@Pagemaster

If you mean to say 'Yes, it's the Suez Canal concessions', I can edit the game premise and the history to something more plausible.

If you meant to say 'Yes, my rudeness was necessary', then let me ask a simple question: Why? Are the standards of courtesy in the NRP section really that low?

And yes, I was rude myself. I at least had the reason that I was not sure if my objections, to Lady Lacivious' history, were going to be accepted at all or just ignored/batted away. That is not an excuse, but one can see why I'd think that, right?

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

<Snipped quote by Lady Lascivious>

Also saw this bit, and yea, would never happen. Worth to much money.

@Pagemaster

Are you referring to the Suez Canal concession?

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

Do my eyes deceive me, or does this roleplay require an active British player?

Disregard, I see Egypt somehow got a powerful fleet and thinks its a world power. I'm out.

@Pagemaster

Did you really need to be rude? And it's not that powerful a fleet compared to the British of that time.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

A thing I forgot to mention is Russia gained the warm water port of Nagasaki in exchange for their military aid. It was not out of the kindness of their hearts, but access to not only a warm water port - but a very well positioned one at that, enabling power projection of the Russian empire into the south pacific.

However, I think the standards of plausibility are nevertheless being applied very unevenly in this, with regard to the central premise of the British Empire voluntarily ceding control of Egypt, the Levant, and a Suez Canal. Not to mention the liklihood of revolt by the traditionalists and conservatives within egypt that would have been furious with Ali for ceding what he did. He would be lucky to retain the support of his army and thus retaining his throne.

Yes, my alt is certainly unlikely. But more unlikely than the British voluntarily handing over all of that to Egypt, and Egypt not suffering massive internal strife as a result of Ali's concessions? I somewhat doubt it.

@Lady Lascivious

Except that Muhammad Ali already controlled Egypt and the Levant and the southeasternmost parts of Anatolia around 1840 - It lost the Levant and that part of Anatolia and ceded them back to the Ottoman Empire due to Britain destroying his fleet, which included the entire Ottoman Navy, which had defected to him IRL, in his harbors. In this alternate history, Muhammad Ali averted that bombardment and was allowed to keep his conquests by giving the British the right to build the Suez Canal.

While there would have been traditionalist/conservative discontent afterward, the fact that those concessions were made when European Guns were staring him in the face allows for blame to be shifted away from him and his policies.

Edit: And I see the Russians got Nagasaki. That makes more sense.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

I agree that its unlikely, but hey, the aim is to have fun. Id say nerf it a little, make Japan be in the process of reforms rather than start 100% ready and induatrializing? Its far fetched but hey, its a roleplay.

@Wernher

I'm willing to listen to this, but to be honest, I also don't get why a far-fetched idea is needed to have fun in a Roleplay. I mean, your 'United States of Greater Austria' is at the very limit of what I was willing to accept (no offense meant), and even then I had reservations about how it had claims on many of its neighbors (including all of Italy). But back to the Japan idea:

I am not against an earlier modernization for Japan, nor an earlier overthrow of the Shogunate. But there are other interesting and plausible ways to accomplish those ends than a peasant revolt that manages to sweep through the nation with miraculous military success and foreign support without strings attached. For example, a sudden plague which takes out the Shogun and his top officers, or Emperor Komei dying and his son falling under the influence of the Southern Daimiyo/Lords early.

Or even Russia doing a Commodore Perry much earlier.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

<Snipped quote by Letter Bee>

So are you gonna even give advice on how to fix it or are you just gonna throw a bitchfit for someone trying to have fun

Bc if that's what I signed on for the i'm just gonna dip

@Richard Horthy

Edit: After some review, I was a bit too snippy and curt and I apologize for that, as well as being too impatient to provide advice. Nevertheless, I still stand by the belief that the entire alternate history of Japan, as posited in that nation sheet, is a bit too impossible and that any female peasant leader or peasant-led rebellion in Japan at that time would have been crushed brutally after some months, maybe a year if they're lucky.

Edit 2: And if one brings up Joan of Arc, she was propping up an existing regime, not overthrowing it, her message was useful for those in power, not anathema to them, and she found supporters among the elite early on.

Edit 3: And why would the European Powers help Japan's new regime without concessions? Commodore Perry's voyage to Japan was to get concessions. Like it or not, a new regime in Japan with dubious legitimacy (as even if true, the 'New Shogun's' claims still sound absurd) would be shaky and the West would profit more from trying to overthrow it than helping it become a power which would eventually rival them.

Add that to the fact that Emperor Komei (I did do some research on him) was very Anti-Foreigner and a traditionalist to boot, and he'd have given full support to the 'Old Shogunate' against Kimiko's rebellion. He may even have tried to take over and restore Imperial Authority earlier if the Old Shogunate appeared to be losing, and his overwhelming legitimacy would have gotten the people on his side, especially if he promised lower taxes to the peasants as well.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

<Snipped quote by Letter Bee>

Guess I shant be joining, then, y'all have fun now. Maybe I can reuse this for something else some day.

@Lady Lascivious

I understood, good day.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

Can you elaborate? Peasant rebellion in Japan leading to regime change? An early and voluntary opening of Japan? Women having rights? Alliance with Russia?

Or literally every single one?

@Lady Lascivious

Literally every single one.

Edit: And I'm in a bad mood right now, btw, so let's not debate this further.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

@Letter Bee
I do indeed have the permission of Russia's player for this, we discussed it in private before I'd even started the sheet.

What exactly do you wish changed

@Lady Lascivious

I feel like the entire backstory is implausible.