Necroes

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

@Wraithblade6 And now, we apply this scene to a 40k standard.

A tyranid shoots a high velocity borer beetle at you from a standard fleshborer. It collides with your arm traveling at bullet velocity, and uses the force of the impact to punch through your arm, lodge itself in your sternum, and then bores its way through to the other side, eating everything in its path. This occurs in approximately five seconds, the first .02 of which is how long you have to react to seeing the gaunt aiming at you. Because, once that shot is in the air, you've officially lost any chance of getting out of the way.

Now, a Space Marine in the same situation... exact same rules apply, except he's more chewy and would likely be wearing denser armor. Keeping in mind, of course, that fleshborer beetles are more than capable of chewing their way through flak armor, if it hit his flesh, reports have it doing damage on par with a bolter round.

Now, let's put an eldar harlequin in this same scenario... The sound of the 'gun' firing alerts him to the danger. He can turn his head and see the shot coming mid-flight, and then pirouettes so hard he dodges the bug flying at him going mach 2, because magic space-elves can do that somehow. It makes absolutely no sense, but that's what the fluff says they are capable of. That is, literally, the only explanation for how they can dodge bullets, because those are the things you need to do to dodge a bullet.

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

@Klomster Humans have good reaction time to begin with. Once something, say, touches us, it takes fractions of a millisecond for the nerve endings in the body to send that information to the brain. From there, the average person can react on instinct within the next second, depending on the input. Say someone grabbed a hot pan from an oven. The average person could react quickly enough to let go of that pan before it caused anything more than probably some blistering. Given it's a race against energy transfer, that's pretty damn quick.

However, literally anything that has a nervous system can do that. Yes, the amount of time it takes the average person to act on information they perceive through their senses is a very small amount of time... But so can anything. All being faster than a human at reaction time means is you're shaving off, in the most extreme cases, a second to two.

A space marine can draw his weapon faster than basically any human alive. However, given that things like lasers exist in the 41st millennium, that doesn't mean much. Yes, space marines react faster than humans. Nine times in ten, though, and especially in a sci-fi setting, the dangers they're reacting to are so fast to begin with, that the damage has already been done before the sensory organs they rely on even have time to translate the incoming data into a form the brain can read it in. In other words, they literally wouldn't know about it until it has already hit them.

However, in 40k, there are things that can react even faster. Eldar can dodge lasgun fire. Necrons can phase to another dimension as they're being shot. Daemons can deflect bullets. How? Space magic!... But, in a world where that's a thing, space marines are far from the end-all be-all that the books like to make them out to be.

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

Oh, orks aren't nearly as big as ogryns. The average boy pales by comparison, and even nobs would be hard pressed to keep up. You'd need a full-fledged war boss to keep them on the same level, physically.

No, orks are built differently. The entire species was literally designed to be a living weapon. Not individually, but as a whole. That includes DNA encoded combat training, an almost stupidly high capacity for regeneration and healing, and the ability to produce an armed and armored army out of basically anything, and all within a frighteningly short time. That the entire species does this as part of its natural reproductive cycle is what makes orks a threat.

And, no, marines are not just 'big humans.' They're definitely well within the realm of 'super human.' The problem is that humans suck to begin with, and being a better version of something that's not very good to begin with means you're probably not all that great. The problem is that there's SO much conflicting fluff about marines, and what they can do and what they're supposedly capable of, it's almost impossible to get an accurate reading of what the average one really should be.

I mean, discounting anyone with a name grimdark enough to earn him plot armor, marines die by the hundreds on the battlefield on a regular basis. The blood angels chapter, one of the original founding chapters, was nearly brought to extinction in a battle against orks. What does that mean? Well, given that 90% of ork fighting style is 'throw wave after wave of your own men at them' (yes, they did it before Zapp Brannigan) that means that an entire chapter, known as one of if not the best at engaging in melee combat... were regularly defeated in melee combat by ork boys. The only reason the blood angels are still around is because their successor chapters had their arms twisted into coughing up enough troops to maintain the ranks.

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

@Klomster Actually, marines really aren't all that fast, in terms of reaction time. They've got higher quality sensory input than the average human, but nothing they get actually increases the speed at which they process that information. The only thing is training and conditioning, and that only gets you so far before you hit the physical limitations of relying on a biological sensory system, which humans are already pretty damn close to to begin with.

Ironically, given the fluff behind ogryns, they may actually have a better reaction time than marines. Ogryn brains never really 'devolved,' they just mutated to better meet different needs. They seem less intelligent because their brains are more geared towards survival than social pleasantries and basic skills like mathematics and grammar. However, that's actually in their favor, as it means their brains have adapted to filter out all the 'white noise' and focus only on what matters; survival, and by extension, processing information that's important to continuing it.

They also win in muscle density. They average 2.5 to 3 meters tall (that's 8'2" to nearly 10' for my fellow imperialst scum), without any kind of power suit. See, the weird thing about Ogryns is that, on a homeworld with nearly double earth's gravity, they got Bigger. Things don't get bigger when there's more gravity, they get more compact. That's why whales don't work well outside of the water, they need the buoyancy to keep their bodies from being crushed under their own weight.

Ogryns, on the other hand, were put somewhere they should have gotten smaller, and actually got even bigger. That means the need for sheer brute strength was so great, that somehow natural selection favored the largest, despite that extra bulk working against them. This next part is pretty math heavy, so I'm going to use a hider.

Math stuff for anyone who cares.

So when a given body increases in size proportionately by doubling its height, its mass will increases by a factor of about eight, just by a purely mathematical sense. Given the size of the average Ogryn, assuming their weight in a standard Earth environment increased by Only that factor of eight, then halving their height of upwards of 10' would mean we're basing them on the average weight of a 5' man. So, the 'ideal' average weight for a middle aged man of 5' height is right around 110 lbs. That means the matching ogryn would weigh 880 lbs on Earth. Now, on their home planet, they would weigh twice that. Meaning, that all of their bulk has to be able to not just barely, but effectively and regularly support 1,960 lbs.

Meaning, an ogryns muscles have to be dense enough to heft around 2 tons of weight at all times, naked. As the average space marine only has to pack around 600 pounds naked, and both are required to perform under battlefield conditions, the Ogryn at only a couple feet taller would Have to have over double the muscle density of the average space marine.

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

Ogryns just Are stronger and tougher than marines. That's why they carry heavier guns, bigger melee weapons, and wear armor that offers similar levels of protection against attacks despite being literally just massive slabs of metal. Space marines are better not because they are more physically powerful, but because they're augmented to be more versatile and better soldiers. It'd be like comparing a human soldier to a gorilla. In a straight-up fist fight, the gorilla is probably going to win... but a soldier wouldn't be dumb enough to let those be the terms he engages a gorilla under, and I definitely wouldn't want a pack of gorillas going in to do the kind of missions I'd give to soldiers.
Physically, the only thing more impressive about a marine than an ogryn is their ability to survive in the long run. That's it.

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

@BCTheEntity Sooo, out of curiosity... why did you assume the at least two armored marines helping our dear apothecary would let you just walk away with the patient?

Putting aside any medical issues, Xepherial still has cronies with him, and they're armed and armored. One naked marine wouldn't be able to just walk past something like that. If they wanted to restrain you, all they'd have to do is hold you off long enough for him to cut through skull. Given it's a future saw made to cut through a space marine's skull, it wouldn't take extremely long to do that. Once that happened, the surgery would Have to continue, because even a space marine can't walk around with their brain on open display.

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

@BCTheEntity Something to keep in mind is that all the various implants and additional organs added to a space marine aren't natural. As marines can actively control most of them, that means they have to be artificially attached to the brain. In addition to the various tech-marine implants, there are a Ton of injuries that a marine could receive that would require open access to the brain to fix. There would be various machines and what not that could, in theory, bypass the need to look at the marine's brain the old fashioned way, but I doubt a scouting vessel would just have that kind of thing on hand.

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

Marines have taken far more than being smashed in the head by an Ork and survived.

@Jbcool

Well, he didn't Just take a blow to the head from an ork, that was just the most recent. As I recall, he's fallen several stories only to be impaled on a large spike, in addition to taking a large volley of bolter fire. I feel like there was more, for some reason, but can't find it.
Anyway, my point is, basically any of those things would outright kill a normal human, several times over. More importantly, though, the extra organs marines are implanted with are fully capable of being damaged to the point of needing repair. Being as most are situated in the chest, and that's where the spike hit him, there's plenty of room to allow for the need of surgery. That a trained apothecary stated he'd be dead without the appropriate care acts to confirm that he needs it.
Marines are tough, but Xeph has taken the kind of damage that could put one down. In addition, he's a techmarine, so it's entirely possible his mechanical enhancements were damaged in the process, and That's why he's dying.

I'm not saying it's Impossible for a healing coma to pull him through, but the Sus-an membrane has its limitations. The most important of which is that, if he Did enter the coma, he'd need an apothecary to wake him up anyway. Plus, how long it would take him to heal those wounds is entirely uncertain. That is, of course, assuming the Sus-an wasn't damaged to the point of being inoperational by either the fall or the bolter fire, which can happen. The fact that he's still bleeding means that at least one of the organs which are responsible for preventing that has also been damaged, which manatee indirectly addressed in his post.

Marines wear armor for a reason. Yea, compared to a human they can take a lot, but that's really not saying much. That's why I don't go by the books, they make marines out to be a lot more than they are. The truth is, space marines die all the time. That's why every chapter is Constantly training new recruits, despite the 1,000 marine limit stated in the Codex Astartes. In the grand scheme of things, in a world where standard-issue weapons are literally automatic mini-RPG launchers, they aren't the nigh invulnerable demi-gods the books act like they are.

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

@BCTheEntity Also, Lucius isn't a trained medic. I mean, the list of injuries Xeph took is a quarter mile long, and ultimately cumulated with a pretty heavy blow to the head. Considering the sheer number of added features in a space marine's head, especially a tech-marine's, opening his skull for an operation would be completely justifiable. Any marine with an extended amount of experience would know that when a marine needs surgery, it'd be one Hell of a surgery.

That, and there's all of Azazel's underlings who would get in your way. From my understanding, they're all full-fledged marines themselves, and fully kitted with gear and power armor. If that's the case, and I admit it very well may not be, Lucius couldn't realistically fight them with hopes for success. Whether he'd try is up to you, of course, but he'd know going in his chances of success would be slim, in addition to the fact that he couldn't be sure he'd actually be 'saving' Xeph at all anyway.

Are We the Bad Guys? - A WH40k RP [Mature]

First order of business; I vote we hijack a ship that doesn't cripple two of our number, and get something with some size to it.