Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dion
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<Snipped quote by Buddha>

Agreed, though if anyone deserves to be insulted personally it's a man who, in front of hundreds of thousands of people (not sure on video viewcounts), decided to 'debate', despite his credentials previously only being making loud shouty noises and surreal jokes. That being said, I enjoy his videos.

<Snipped quote by Buddha>

I am not an immigrant. While I do express concerns about the abused or downtrodden (like those poor souls who are currently locked out of their colleges at the moment due to the temporary immigration ban), often to coworkers who spout anti-poor or anti-immigrant rhetoric, I can't say whether or not I care actually has any affect on the outcome. Immigration hasn't been a real issue for 200 years (though that hasn't stopped people from believing it was at the time), it's the current politicians and anti-immigration spouting bobbleheads that are the problem. They're the ones making it a problem, I'm more concerned about their ilk still being in office. Basically, I view it as a non-issue that was made an issue by idiocy. Really, it's more likely voting Trump into office is the seed that made this an issue, because guess what, this ban was only made possible because he's in office. If we had elected Hillary, it'd just have been a few idiots spouting shit about Muslims.

Hopefully everyone can get their head out of their asses and their fingers off their bare nipples before it becomes an actual issue, as in, a permanent immigration ban. Or, and this is the subject of many of my wet dreams, fire Trump, the guy spearheading this shit.

So yes, I care, but not enough to shout on twitter "FUCK YOU, TRUMP, YOUR MUMS A CUNT AND I FUCKED HER, THAT I DID"


So you think that he deserves to be receiving insults from developers who, after they got caught shittalking, made their accounts private? And you don't think that equally deserves backlash just like JonTron got backlash? Purely because... what, purely because youtubers aren't allowed to show political opinions and affiliations?

I disagree and I think that's a stupid opinion. He's just as entitled to say what he thinks (and be treated with respect) as anyone else regardless of how he earned his fame.

As for your second point, I'm not American, I have literally zero interest in the USA and it's immigration, and I for one am happy that the American hegemony is finally falling (if Trump keeps up what he's doing). So I'm going to ignore everything you said about the US (mostly because the US takes in a stupidly low number of refugees and immigrants to begin with and takes the privilege of being over seas, therefore not being an easily accessible refugee country. That, and the fact that you hand-pick/cherry-pick the refugees that do come...) and explain to you how it is in Europe, where due to geo-location, immigration (both legal and illegal) have been a massive problem for the past 200 years.

Because, yes, the world isn't limited to America, and yes, Europe is currently paying for/cleaning up the mess that the USA started when they started bombing the fuck out of the middle East and invading left and right.

Europe is currently facing an immigration crisis because we have a stream of refugees that is currently only stemmed per agreement with the hostile Turkish president, mr. Erdotürk, also know as the Dictatürk. He is using this power to manipulate the EU into conceding rights to Turkey, i.e. visa-free travel. So, as you can tell, the immigration crisis here has already had severe political consequences. Remind me how, in fact, this isn't an issue.

Read this.

We're not talking about 100.000 refugees spread in Europe either. They are large numbers.

The Netherlands has 17 million people, and we are facing a housing crisis because there aren't enough affordable homes for people. Please enlighten me how we should give these people shelter in a humane way and at the same time maintain order and keep a headcount present to avoid people escaping into illegality when we ask them to return home.

Which volunteer 'help organizations' are suspecting is happening because people that aren't from dangerous countries (Morocco, Tunis, Albania) are coming here to apply as 'refugee' knowing that they will get sent back. That's apparently not an issue either.

But, ignoring refugees, lets assume that everything is 100% okay there.

What about existing immigrant families? I mean surely, the US has got to handpick all immigrants that entered the USA except for Mexicans, so your integration is 100% okay because people that live there as immigrants actually live there because the US let them live there. What about here?

Well, immigrants here aren't integrated at all. For example, third generation Dutch citizens with a migration background (so, grandparents that came from abroad) still suffer a language barrier because they just don't learn Dutch. And, let me tell you, that's not because they are just simply genetically inferior, it's because of culture. You can read it in Dutch here. You wouldn't understand but perhaps you can translate it, if you truly think that immigration is not an issue then perhaps you will find a way to explain why certain demographics have a harder time with the Dutch language despite being born here.

But it's not just them. Asians have completely segregated themselves from the rest of society (as they do all across the world) and perhaps this is the finest example of integration I can give you except it's not 'integration'. It's just co-existence. They're not integrated at all. They just respect our culture and we don't ask questions about theirs because they do what they do in private. That's not integration at all.

We used the slogan 'The Netherlands, our multicultural society' a few years back and we have unofficially changed this to 'The Netherlands, our failed multicultural schoolproject' nowadays simply because multiculturalism doesn't work when you can't control who enters your country and under what motives.

So no, I disagree entirely, immigration is very important no matter which side of the argument you are one. And even though I care, I'm not going online to shout at people, because believe it or not, there is a difference between being anti-immigration for no reason other than racism, or having issues with the current immigration policy, or simply having concerns about it.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Vilageidiotx
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<Snipped quote by Chrononaut>

So you think that he deserves to be receiving insults from developers who, after they got caught shittalking, made their accounts private? And you don't think that equally deserves backlash just like JonTron got backlash? Purely because... what, purely because youtubers aren't allowed to show political opinions and affiliations?


Because the former is a personal matter betwixt the developers and JonTron, whereas JonTron's views have public implications by virtue of being political. You can say things, but you have to accept the potential social repercussions of those things. Just because you say something doesn't mean everyone owes it to you to like you.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Chrononaut
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I disagree and I think that's a stupid opinion. He's just as entitled to say what he thinks (and be treated with respect) as anyone else regardless of how he earned his fame.


I don't have to treat anyone with respect, that's the best part about being a free man. I don't have to treat Anwar Congo with respect, I don't have to treat Richard Kuklinski with respect, I don't have to treat Rupert Murdoch with respect, and I certainly don't need to pretend to respect anyone who I don't respect just to protect their sense of self worth. If your happiness cannot sustain the battering of scorn, perhaps you should be acting in a manner that makes you appear like less of a massive cock. Or maybe you should just, like me and anyone else who voices an opinion that someone disagrees with, accept that you can't make everyone happy.

Edit: Villageidiot above me says something similar in a much more kind, gentlehearted way not burdened by years of being a cynic.

As for your second point, I'm not American, I have literally zero interest in the USA and it's immigration


And I have literally no interest in Europe and its immigration. We're pretty much on the same page here.

Because, yes, the world isn't limited to America, and yes, Europe is currently paying for/cleaning up the mess that the USA started when they started bombing the fuck out of the middle East and invading left and right.


I'm against our current conflicts and the past few ones, but that does sound an awful lot like your problem.

Remind me how, in fact, this isn't an issue.


Because I do not live there and the situation is entirely different from the one I currently live in. I cannot solve the rest of the worlds problems and do not pretend that I can.

because believe it or not, there is a difference between being anti-immigration for no reason other than racism, or having issues with the current immigration policy, or simply having concerns about it.


Jontron is an American citizen, so that's what I was discussing. I've already heard concerns from European countries regarding immigration (I can't remember whether it was my buddy from the Netherlands or the one from Portugal that was discussing an issue with immigrants being given several hundred dollars and a room in a cheap tenant building, but it sounded like a pretty bad situation) and consider them valid.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Vilageidiotx
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Yeh, Europe has a legit immigration crisis going on, I'm not going to deny any of that.

The US is dealing with something less messy. We've had a lot of coming and going across the Mexican border since forever, oftentimes illegal. (there is a really good documentary about this from all the way back in the eighties.) It's just that now, over the last ten or twenty years, northern Mexico is seriously fucked up, and the trickled of people is larger than it used to be. Couple that with wage stagnation and people wanting a scapegoat, and you got what we have now.
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I dunno, I don't think that is the case to be honest. I'm just not convinced that that the abuse of the race card is so out of control compared to the potential shit that would be caused by aborting the taboo. Shit does happen, but it seems to be systematically contained.

JonTron and Pewdiepie are two different situations though. Pewdiepie isn't a racist, he's just unfunny. JonTron actually insinuated some racist shit. I agree that we shouldn't let the word racism completely lose it's meaning, but that also means not going the other direction and thinking that racism requires explicit violence or slurs or whatever.

when did the right wing get into post-modernism? i'm used to post modernism being something edgy left wing kids do. where the fuck this idea that it's not cool to call it racism, that it must be called a "non-standard" view come from? this is some weird shit. Is this the new political correctness?

Just because somebody is racist in that way doesn't make them evil. Personally I just think JonTron is a dumbass. But just because they are not evil doesn't mean we must with-hold the racism term, since doing so would drain the term of all meaning. Just because some people have abused to term doesn't mean that racism no longer is a term at all.


Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Chrononaut
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Yeh, Europe has a legit immigration crisis going on, I'm not going to deny any of that.

The US is dealing with something less messy. We've had a lot of coming and going across the Mexican border since forever, oftentimes illegal. (there is a really good documentary about this from all the way back in the eighties.) It's just that now, over the last ten or twenty years, northern Mexico is seriously fucked up, and the trickled of people is larger than it used to be. Couple that with wage stagnation and people wanting a scapegoat, and you got what we have now.


^ THIS GUY
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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@Chrononaut Someone's lit a fire under this doggo's ass, he seems to be on a roll right now.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Garattee
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There's a lot to unpack here but I think its important to note that immigration and racism aren't always the same thing, Jontron isn't a racist for having views about immigration. But there are racial undertones when he starts talking about European peoples, natural tribalism and gene pools.

By the way I've watched his apology/statement video and I really don't think he is a racist now. But he definitely said some dodgy things about race in the debate.
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@Chrononaut Someone's lit a fire under this doggo's ass, he seems to be on a roll right now.


honestly i'm just posting here because i'm putting off going to bed.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Chrononaut
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There's a lot to unpack here but I think its important to note that immigration and racism aren't always the same thing, Jontron isn't a racist for having views about immigration. But there are racial undertones when he starts talking about European peoples, natural tribalism and gene pools.

By the way I've watched his apology/statement video and I really don't think he is a racist now. But he definitely said some dodgy things about race in the debate.


He APOLOGIZED? Hold up.

Afterwards: Wow, he's actually said he was "unprepared". Love the self-awareness.

"I suck at debate" - Jontron. This is an unlisted video, for some reason.

Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dion
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<Snipped quote by Buddha>

Because the former is a personal matter betwixt the developers and JonTron, whereas JonTron's views have public implications by virtue of being political. You can say things, but you have to accept the potential social repercussions of those things. Just because you say something doesn't mean everyone owes it to you to like you.


W-which he did. twitter.com/JonTronShow/status/8450382.. I don't get your point here. And politics, by nature, are not based in disrespecting your opponent views. Respect =/= liking people. Sorry, but you're missing the point here.

<Snipped quote by Buddha>

I don't have to treat anyone with respect, that's the best part about being a free man. I don't have to treat Anwar Congo with respect, I don't have to treat Richard Kuklinski with respect, I don't have to treat Rupert Murdoch with respect, and I certainly don't need to pretend to respect anyone who I don't respect just to protect their sense of self worth. If your happiness cannot sustain the battering of scorn, perhaps you should be acting in a manner that makes you appear like less of a massive cock. Or maybe you should just, like me and anyone else who voices an opinion that someone disagrees with, accept that you can't make everyone happy.

Edit: Villageidiot above me says something similar in a much more kind, gentlehearted way not burdened by years of being a cynic.

<Snipped quote by Buddha>

And I have literally no interest in Europe and its immigration. We're pretty much on the same page here.

<Snipped quote by Buddha>

I'm against our current conflicts and the past few ones, but that does sound an awful lot like your problem.

<Snipped quote by Buddha>

Because I do not live there and the situation is entirely different from the one I currently live in. I cannot solve the rest of the worlds problems and do not pretend that I can.

<Snipped quote by Buddha>

Jontron is an American citizen, so that's what I was discussing. I've already heard concerns from European countries regarding immigration (I can't remember whether it was my buddy from the Netherlands or the one from Portugal that was discussing an issue with immigrants being given several hundred dollars and a room in a cheap tenant building, but it sounded like a pretty bad situation) and consider them valid.


Then why bring up Trump when I have equally little to do with your president? I never once stated anything about Trump or American politics. I merely mentioned that immigration is a valid political point and that if people are passionate about it/care about it a lot that doesn't equal them to being dumb or racist?
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It is true that taboos have been created in the past by evil regimes, but I don't think this means the creation of taboos are a slippery slope kind of thing. If a regime comes to power with a plan to commit systematic white genocide in a western country, not by the scary fear of pluralism thing white nationalists have, but by systematic violence, then I'll be proven wrong.


Setting the bar at "Systemic genocide" is pretty blaise. Consider: after seeing a headline "JonTron's Possibly Racist Views," are you (a) more likely or (b) less likely to watch JonTron's videos? If a candidate for office is accused of racism for 14 months, do you think that candidate is (a) more likely or (b) less likely to be elected, regardless of policy? If half the nation is thrown into a basket of deplorables, your racists, your homophobes, your misogynists, how likely is it that afterwards the two sides of the argument are going to be able to come together?

And yeah, we're talking about race in this thread because title, but this goes way beyond all that. North Carolina is losing hundreds of millions of dollars for the crime of having the same bathrooms as last year. Social bullying is the absolute norm. That's a very bad thing. The fact that it hasn't escalated to actual SYSTEMIC violence, only scattered POCKETS of violence, does not make that okay.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Chrononaut
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W-which he did. twitter.com/JonTronShow/status/8450382.. I don't get your point here. And politics, by nature, are not based in disrespecting your opponent views. Respect =/= liking people. Sorry, but you're missing the point here.


Actually that's a good tactic in debate. Making your opponents ideas seem absurd, also known as reductio ad absurdum, is reducing your opponents ideas to their most impractical, idiotic, and unreasonable conclusion. Your job as a debater is not to be right, it's to make the other person seem wrong. If you go into a debate with the idea that you are trying to be right, you won't win that debate. You are just arguing ideas. Attacks on the person are seen as bad, but attacks on ideas are basically the entire point of a debate.

Here's an example.


Also respect is this,

"a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements." - Respect. Respecting someone that you do not respect, or acting like you do, is basically just a fancy form of lying. Which is great when I'm being paid to do it, like at work, but not so great when there's a neo-nazi in the street that I want to punch.

Then why bring up Trump when I have equally little to do with your president? I never once stated anything about Trump or American politics. I merely mentioned that immigration is a valid political point and that if people are passionate about it/care about it a lot that doesn't equal them to being dumb or racist?


It does if they're suddenly very opinionated about the subject without expressing any interest in any other political topic, in America, and literally uses the word gene-pool in a sentence.

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We aren't dealing with illegal immigration though. We're nuclear bombing all immigration.

What are you talking about? Are you talking about the travel ban that Trump signed recently? Or are you talking about something else completely different? To me, I disagree with that point.

Also, "illegal immigration" is a fancy word for "illegal Mexicans" in America. If we were to actually deal with illegal immigrants in a way that would lead to solving the problem, it would have to be to directly deal with Mexico itself.

I am also talking about Central American countries as well Mexico and other countries that come into America illegally. America cannot just solve the illegal immigration problem without dealing with other countries, especially South and Central America.

I don't see America acting to stop Mexican immigrants, I see America acting to stop all immigrants, including legal ones, from entering the country. We're even thinking of banning citizens who had illegal parents, but know no other life other than being an American, from being here. It's stupid.

Evidence that America is trying to end all immigration, ban all immigrants, and even ban citizens who had illegal parents? Because that sounds like fear-mongering to me. Correct me if I am wrong, of course.

And it's not even really a problem. If anything, illegal immigrants (mexicans) benefit our economy by allowing an easily exploitable resource of hopeful idiots to enter our country, thus granting most legal citizenry cheap food product through underpaid labor. Capitalism!

That is why I think that America should focus on making people interested in becoming farmers and factory workers, so they do not have to rely on others. Almost everyone (including Americans) has become too lazy to work with their hands thanks to technological advances and entertainment. What do you mean by 'hopeful idiots?' Many Hispanics and Asians still believe in the American Dream to this day. And I have respect for immigrants (even the illegal ones, shocking right?) that they are trying to improve their lives where their home country failed to do so. That is also why I believe that America should focus on improving other countries after fixing their own problems.

Whether or not you think that practice is morally right or wrong, it's basically a win for the legal citizen.

While we're talking wars we'll never win, how about that war on drugs? That seems to be working real well for us, too.

We can also talk about America's failures throughout history all day (since it's like no other country has failed also) but that is another discussion that someone else could post. The War on Drugs needs to end and quickly. I believe in marijuana legalization across the nation. I do not, however, believe in decriminalizing all drugs like Portugal did. I could go into more depth, but that would derail the thread.

JonTron and Pewdiepie are two different situations though. Pewdiepie isn't a racist, he's just unfunny. JonTron actually insinuated some racist shit. I agree that we shouldn't let the word racism completely lose it's meaning, but that also means not going the other direction and thinking that racism requires explicit violence or slurs or whatever.

Of course, I agree with you that racism does also require explicit violence. However, I do believe in giving people a second chance. Like if a white supremacist changes his entire viewpoint and realize that he has done wrong, then I would give him a chance to prove it. We should be giving them and others a chance rather than just assume that they will change. It is like when people are saying 'punch a nazi.' What if that Nazi has completely changed? Would you try to forgive him or punish him anyway because of his past.

Of course, I am getting off topic (again).

when did the right wing get into post-modernism? i'm used to post modernism being something edgy left wing kids do. where the fuck this idea that it's not cool to call it racism, that it must be called a "non-standard" view come from? this is some weird shit. Is this the new political correctness?

Well, post-modernism affects everyone, including the conservatives and the communists. The idea that it isn't cool to call it racism, it's the idea that you must be a racist if you do nothing. Left-leaning political ideas are more popular and common than right-leaning ideas. Not saying that the right does not exist because it does. Like how a Tumblr post that talks about feminism gets tens of thousands of likes and reblogs while a post about pro-gun gets only a few hundred to a thousand likes and reblogs.

And I am wondering if you think that I am a part of the right wing movement? Just curious.

That being said, the arguments about illegal immigration shouldn't be white genocide or shit like that, because that's just dumb. We can talk about taxes and wages and shit like that, but when we get into racial demographic BS (back to JonTron now), well... that's racist. Does that make him a Nazi? No. That makes him a Know-Nothing. But still a racist.

The Know-Nothing party was mainly anti-Catholic and they were scared because they truly believed that the Catholics were limited liberties and freedom back in Europe. I do not understand how the Know-Nothing party fits into the modern day and that JonTron is one. Is it because of nativism or populist is highly present in the party? Care to explain?
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Hmm...

Well, reading most of this discussion. It basically boils down to everyone is racist, but if that's true...why is merely saying it so damning and condemning of a man's/woman's character if literally everyone on earth is racist? How can it hold such power, if it's such a vague and almost pointless thing to say? Since from birth, you're just born that way...It's not just prejudice or ignorance, which are words that already exists. No, it's believing that a particular race is superior to another. The definition on google. I just really don't hold that belief...at all.

And really, what else is this but an attack on someone in the spotlight? I think the fact that an apology and explanation can change people's minds that fast on if that person is racist or not, shows how flimsy/inaccurate that word really is...also shows how uninformed people should really not make assumptions before they even have all the evidence in their lap. But everyone does it anyway...

@Vilageidiotx "I don't personally think that being against illegal immigration is an evil thing btw. I think it's a completely debatable subject that's been made stupid in the general discussion because both sides want to use it to gain political points."

Is it really debatable though? Illegal immigration means crime has already been committed. Are we arguing for crime to become okay? Because that's really about all that can be debated. The reason the other side doesn't use that word is so people don't question the whole "illegal" thing. Not to nitpick, that is sort of what I'm doing. But I just don't feel like going full course. I'm politic'd out. :P
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Honestly, I don't think JonTron is racist. I think he's just really really dumb.


Oddly enough, this is probably the most concise and candid statement on this particular thread. :I (Though really given the circumstance that these shenanigans are based on. It's probably the most accurate one too...)
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@Vilageidiotx "I don't personally think that being against illegal immigration is an evil thing btw. I think it's a completely debatable subject that's been made stupid in the general discussion because both sides want to use it to gain political points."

Is it really debatable though? Illegal immigration means crime has already been committed. Are we arguing for crime to become okay? Because that's really about all that can be debated. The reason the other side doesn't use that word is so people don't question the whole "illegal" thing. Not to nitpick, that is sort of what I'm doing. But I just don't feel like going full course. I'm politic'd out. :P


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<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>



@Dinh AaronMk I suppose I do prefer people being honest with their shitposting. Also on a unrelated topic, literally everything becomes a meme doesn't it? :I
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<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>

@Dinh AaronMk I suppose I do prefer people being honest with their shitposting. Also on a unrelated topic, literally everything becomes a meme doesn't it? :I


meme
mēm/Submit
noun
an element of a culture or system of behavior that may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by nongenetic means, especially imitation.


Yes.
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<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>

<Snipped quote>

Yes.


Fair enough. :I
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