Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

Buy your citizenship today for 500K to get a stetson and an AR-15 free while supplies last!


You say that like it's a bad thing. Plus if you're even WORTHY of citizenship in our great and noble holy land, you should be able to talk him down to 495k easily. That's just pocket change (am I using that correctly? Pockets and change are for the poor)
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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o fuc, libertarians are shitposting in a @Dynamo Frokane thread and he isn't posting memes, he must be losing his touch


They aren't libertarians, they are basic conservatives, I like making fun of Private Militias, Non Aggression Principles and Free Markets, I couldn't give a shit about Nascar, Gun Shows and Tax Cuts.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Vilageidiotx
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<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

They aren't libertarians, they are basic conservatives, I like making fun of Private Militias, Non Aggression Principles and Free Markets, I couldn't give a shit about Nascar, Gun Shows and Tax Cuts.


That's AnCaps. That's, like, Libertarian Fundamentalism.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

That's AnCaps. That's, like, Libertarian Fundamentalism.


#NotAllLibertarians
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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@Vilageidiotx stop changing your sig, you closet commie cuck.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Vilageidiotx
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@Vilageidiotx stop changing your sig, you closet commie cuck.


it changes itself.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by mdk
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<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

it changes itself.


unlike those lousy Democrats!

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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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@Dinh AaronMk

1) Communism generally removes individual incentives. Some people might think this is a benefit, since it eliminates greed and inequality, but it also destroys any sort of incentive to work hard. When you are compensated roughly the same regardless of how much you work, how strong you are, or how smart you are, why would anyone put in more than the minimal effort? Game theory works well here: if 1000 people work hard, everyone is 1000 times better off...until one person realizes he can do the bare minimum and still reap the rewards. Then the second, then the third, etc.

2) Removing private property also removes the incentive to maximize its use. When no one "owns" it no one will take care of it.

3) Prices. Prices are a perfect way to signal supply and demand. It is impossible for a central planner to determine the preferences of each individual in a nation...but free pricing can.

In order to make any of these things work, you need a dictatorship to force people to do so. Not working hard enough? If the people's paradise doesn't motivate you, maybe the gulag will. Supply and demand not right? The government is forced to step in.

The above things may be doable on a small scale, but only if people have the choice to buy in. If you force entire nations to do so, it is going to be impossible to move out of the communist dictatorship; you will always need the force of law to make people not follow the "natural" psychology of supply and demand and incentives. I can't think of any practical way that the state will ever wither away.

Basically, you can eliminate inequality in society by making everyone equally miserable.

TL;DR: In its very nature. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" basically guarantees that everyone will work just hard enough to not be thrown in a prison camp and receive just enough to survive.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Kratesis
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@Dinh AaronMk

3) Prices. Prices are a perfect way to signal supply and demand. It is impossible for a central planner to determine the preferences of each individual in a nation...but free pricing can.


This is the core of why communist countries fail and I have yet to see it addressed in a serious and detailed way by those who advocate for communist systems of government.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
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@Dinh AaronMk

1) Communism generally removes individual incentives. Some people might think this is a benefit, since it eliminates greed and inequality, but it also destroys any sort of incentive to work hard. When you are compensated roughly the same regardless of how much you work, how strong you are, or how smart you are, why would anyone put in more than the minimal effort? Game theory works well here: if 1000 people work hard, everyone is 1000 times better off...until one person realizes he can do the bare minimum and still reap the rewards. Then the second, then the third, etc.


Most communists today aside from Tankies or even Nazbols are going to argue that removing individual incentives is a bad idea, looking back on the Soviet Union and comparing their policies to policies similar to that of say Yugoslavia. One of the lines I've heard used to argues against this very point isn't so much equality of outcomes but equality of access. But also the opportunity to own more of your own labor by awarding the workers with more a share of the final output of their production in a system that would be compared to today's profit sharing; the better their shop has performed in creating something that is purchased the more they are paid. There's a material incentive for the individual to see to that things get better.

And while you can pull the whole Game Theory thing on this with the one guy realizing he can coast on fumes while everyone burns through everything, that's already a thing in today's 'capitalist' workforce. When someone can disappear into the sea of numbers that is the employed and dodge their bosses well enough no one can tell how much this person did or did not do, so he gets paid the same rate as everyone else.

2) Removing private property also removes the incentive to maximize its use. When no one "owns" it no one will take care of it.


Hardly.

The point of a communalized farm for instance is to put everyone's resources into one basket so that everyone has more than they had as if they were going it alone. It's unlikely anyone is going to need a specific something all at the same time. And putting their head and effort together to maximize the profit of the commune they're as encouraged to do more and can consider and seek avenues to not only cut their own labor, but make more as worker-owners.

The process would be very much like automated factories, or the automated farms that are so much a thing in Texas and Oklahoma. But instead of forcing hundreds out of their family homes because there's no economic benefit to being there, and they'll have to try their hands at being a grocery store bag-man these individuals forced off still reap the benefits of the land by owning it together as a community. And having worked or presently working the land they already have more right to it than some asshole in a mansion in Houston's suburbs.

Present experiments in the US in cooperatively controlled businesses also lend support to this. While they might be slow in decision making because of consent of all - or most - of the employees there they honestly become more a haven of innovation and creativity than the regimented and impersonal world of traditional business structure; where while the top may make a quick decision, it may not be the right decision or the most innovative and is clouded by the ego of the individual on top.

While that seems small, US Company Gore operates on a model very similar, and they're the company to make the high-tech fabrics that go into army coats, raincoats, fire-fighter's equipment, tubing for cars, and any high-tech material for computers and space. As I heard it in the book Tipping Point, even the owner identifies himself as an Associate, along with everyone else. Their organizational structure is very flat and democratic, and it's been working.

3) Prices. Prices are a perfect way to signal supply and demand. It is impossible for a central planner to determine the preferences of each individual in a nation...but free pricing can.


Again, not all communists are going to necessarily argue we can't have a market, at least not at the present pre-scarcity moment. The point of communism through socialism is to achieve a post-scarcity world where everyone owns without restraint of economic class the results of, and the means of production. In that one no single individual or group of individuals can hold the larger population hostage by leveeing unnecessary controls.

Anarcho-Mutualists, Communists, and Syndicalists would even argue to remove labor all together from the equation and let us live as artists.

In order to make any of these things work, you need a dictatorship to force people to do so. Not working hard enough? If the people's paradise doesn't motivate you, maybe the gulag will. Supply and demand not right? The government is forced to step in.


As I've included above, no you don't.

Going back to Gore one of the things that makes them unique is they split their factories every time the associate population rises above a hundred a fifty. As one associate put it, "When people start parking on the grass, we know it's time to split".

A community can manage itself to work towards a shared goal.

The above things may be doable on a small scale, but only if people have the choice to buy in. If you force entire nations to do so, it is going to be impossible to move out of the communist dictatorship; you will always need the force of law to make people not follow the "natural" psychology of supply and demand and incentives. I can't think of any practical way that the state will ever wither away.


Small scale is pretty much the point.

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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Vilageidiotx
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<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

This is the core of why communist countries fail and I have yet to see it addressed in a serious and detailed way by those who advocate for communist systems of government.


It was more or less impossible in the past, and would be ridiculously difficult now, but I do think we are currently developing the model necessary for central planning in the future. If virtually all transactions are cataloged digitally, a central planning computer could organize the economy in a way that no Soviet style central planning board ever could. The main positive would be obvious of course; it would eliminate quite a bit of waste, both from the inefficiencies of the market system, and through the wealth currently wasted by pooling at the top. The main negative (that I can think of at least) would be the loss of Capitalism's ability to create wants that the consumer would never have thought of on their own (I don't think computerized central planning would have invented Gushers, for instance)

Shit, maybe the path to post-scarcity communism started with Amazon's recommendation system.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Kratesis
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@Vilageidiotx I agree with you that a sufficiently advanced computer might be able to do the job. Personally I put my money on a self learning algorithm. Something like AlphaGo.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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@Dinh AaronMkDidnt take much to get you riled up :D

@Vilageidiotx why are you in the closet about your hammer and sickle, doggo?

Im trapped in a thread full of wackos, am I the only one here who is a proponent of moderate authoritarianism and generally centrist views?

It seems like everyone here who isnt an Alt Right sympathising Freezepeach warrior is a Oppression Gold Medalist or a boot stomping commie. Lord help us all.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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According to everything personal studies have shown me, I am a right leaning centrist, @Dynamo Frokane.

Unfortunately in this day and age, that characterizes me as an "Alt-Right Nazi", "racist", "misogynist", "Islamophobe", and "homophobe" among others, despite my open disdain for any communist or socialist system, belief race, gender, faith, creed, and what-have-you is irrelevant so long as you can meet the criteria of the end state goal, and that the federal, as well as state, government is not an all powerful evil but rather a necessary one for the good order and conduct of society.

Personally, this sounds all very rational to me, but there's been plenty who view this as somehow "extreme".
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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@The Harbinger of Ferocity My political interactions with you have been limited, but if you truly are a right leaning centrist and hold actual center right views then I have no issue with that, we probably have a bit in common.

However, if you are a race realist, free market advocate, holocaust denier, climate change skeptic, Flat Earther, or an american civil war revisionist, then sadly I wont want to share my birthday cake with you.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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I have to admit, I do not consider myself to fall square in any of that territory, at most I teeter a bit to each side in each, @Dynamo Frokane. Your beloved cake might be in jeopardy after all.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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@The Harbinger of Ferocity exactly how far do you teeter into 'flat earth theory'
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Vilageidiotx
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@Dinh AaronMkDidnt take much to get you riled up :D

@Vilageidiotx why are you in the closet about your hammer and sickle, doggo


Because

A: I don't commit to shit because I don't want my political views to become part of my identity. When that happens, people stop thinking.

B: I have major hangups with Marxism. Shit, the main reason you see me defending it is that I think most negative reactions to it are dumb and knee-jerk.

I think that centrist neo-liberalism amounts to putting fingers in ear about current problems, and right-wing nationalism can only lead to another world war, and I think of right-wing libertarianism about as seriously as you do, so that pretty much just leaves the far left as the only place where an answer to how we advance from this stage of society to the next might come from. That would require the far-left to stop fucking around of course...

So I'm more of an Anarcho-Pessimist really. I think the answer is on the left, but I think we will fail to find the answer and everything will get fucked up.

Im trapped in a thread full of wackos, am I the only one here who is a proponent of moderate authoritarianism and generally centrist views?

It seems like everyone here who isnt an Alt Right sympathising Freezepeach warrior is a Oppression Gold Medalist or a boot stomping commie. Lord help us all.


The curse of living in interesting times. Right now being a centrist is kinda like being with the crew of the Titanic when they find out about the iceberg, and as the argue about which direction to turn the wheel, you say "We should just keep going straight and plow through the thing because we were already going straight before." If it makes you feel any better, there is probably going to be a centrist resurgence soon enough. Populism is getting bad press now, what with Trump and the Alt Right and Antifa.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity exactly how far do you teeter into 'flat earth theory'


Bent earth theory.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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I think the answer is on the left,


Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
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@Dinh AaronMkDidnt take much to get you riled up :D


And here I thought we were done meme'ing.
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