Hidden 5 mos ago Post by Andreyich
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The suffering of people bombed or knifed or shot or otherwise allahu akbar'd is certainly worth a few people down a century being citizens to prove you're not raycis
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by Kratesis
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Lately I have heard a lot about the ethnostate and I have been giving it some thought.

First of all I think it is important to distinguish between ethnostates that already exist and are simply preserved in their current form by peaceful means and ethnostates that do not yet exist but could and which violence may be used to create. These are different things.

Japan for example is one form of an ethnostate. It exists now. It is preserved in its current form by means of restricting immigration. Its existence is also relatively uncontroversial. Large groups of people are not calling upon Japan to disband itself because to exist as an ethnostate is wrong and it must be ethnically diverse (or at least open to ethnic diversity) in order to exist as a moral sate. I do not imagine anyone would advocate the use of violence to force Japan to accept ethnic diversity.

However Richard Spencer's America does not exist now. You might say it is the potential ethnostate where Japan is the kinetic ethnostate. Japan exists and is in motion through time and space now where as the ethnosate dreamed of by Spencer and his fellow travelers exists only in the realm of ideas and may potentially come into the physical world. Unlike Japan this ethnostate is extremely controversial. It's right to exist is disputed and many would advocate the use of violence to prevent such a state from existing.

That raises the question; if one could create an ethnostate on Mars, which is entirely uninhabited, and all those of a specific ethnic group who wished to live on the Martian ethnostate could be magically teleported there to live surrounded by their group under their own flag, would that be morally wrong?

I suspect not but I'm interested in hearing opinions on the matter, especially arguments that object to the Magical Martian Ethnostate.
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*watches a pile of asphyxiated frozen racists grow on the Martian surface*
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Hidden 5 mos ago Post by POOHEAD189
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That raises the question; if one could create an ethnostate on Mars, which is entirely uninhabited, and all those of a specific ethnic group who wished to live on the Martian ethnostate could be magically teleported there to live surrounded by their group under their own flag, would that be morally wrong?

Well I guess it would be bad if they didn't share any of the whole planet.
Hidden 5 mos ago 5 mos ago Post by catchamber
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I suspect not but I'm interested in hearing opinions on the matter, especially arguments that object to the Magical Martian Ethnostate.

Get two racists in a room together, and you'll get 3 opinions about where the lines between any two given ethnicities begin and end. The very concepts of race and ethnicity are outdated, and it seems they provide many more cons than pros. I imagine the colony would implode over time, due to shifting or vague definitions.
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Hidden 5 mos ago Post by Kratesis
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<Snipped quote>
Well I guess it would be bad if they didn't share any of the whole planet.


How much of the planet should they share in order to be a moral ethnostate, in your view?

<Snipped quote by Kratesis>
Get two racists in a room together, and you'll get 3 opinions about where the lines between any two given ethnicities begin and end. The very concepts of race and ethnicity are outdated, and it seems they provide many more cons than pros. I imagine the colony would implode over time, due to shifting or vague definitions.


Can you name an ethnostate that has imploded over shifting or vague definitions of ethnicity? I'm sure this has happened; human history is replete with failed states but do ethnostates implode over shifting and vague definitions of ethnicity with greater frequency than multiethnic states implode over violence between separate ethnic groups?

However your reply implies a rather large degree of confidence that this will occur. Have ethnostates in the past failed due to shifting and vague definitions of ethnicity that we can say with great confidence that a state must be ethnically heterogeneous in order to be stable?

Furthermore if this hypothesis is correct what happens if all feelings of racial prejudice and animus between groups in a ethnically heterogeneous state fade away and they intermarry until all ethnic differences are extinguished and they become ethnically homogeneous once again? Does the state become unstable until they can import members of a different ethnic group into their state?
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by Dynamo Frokane
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<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

Why would I? I got here legally, not sponging off welfare, and continue to be here legally without a criminal record. Is that an issue?

<Snipped quote>

Not really - I just like to think that there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that some cultures can't assimilate into another, especially if one brings those of that culture en masse, giving them opportunities to segregate themselves from the larger population. As with anything, gradual and controlled is probably the best way forward.


Well yes really, you are talking aboit civic nationalism. The fact the you 'got here' means you arent native to the land and therefore not the ethnicity.

I dont think you appreciate that no amount of 'legal status' will change your ethnicity. You dont qualify for an ethnostate because you arent the right race (and by proxy the right ethnicity).

By that same arguement, your example of a japanese ethnostate could have white and black 'japanese' people as long as they werent sponging of welfare or committing crime.

I'm not sure if you dont actually know what an ethnostate is or you are just making an exception for yourself.
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by ReonenMiruel
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<Snipped quote by ReonenMiruel>
<Snipped quote by ReonenMiruel>
Alright, but where does the ethnostatism come in, and how is it implemented?


The idea is that we are currently where we are because of the foundations of Western civilization being what it is, ie based on Greek & Roman philosophy intermingled with Judeo-Christian value systems. These are, for the most part, alien in a lot of cultures outside of ours/this - hence the idea that people coming in should be let in slowly and in a controlled fashion.
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by ReonenMiruel
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I'm not sure if you dont actually know what an ethnostate is or you are just making an exception for yourself.


Essentially, this is why I said "I'm not sure how far I'd go with that". The main idea is that, as I said above, it's kinda hard to maintain the identity of a place unless the people that are coming in are willing to assimilate into the culture - and therefore values - of that place. Unfortunately, the places we are talking is predominantly white at the moment, and turning that into anything else - barring a slow process at the end of which I really couldn't give a damn if everyone's skin color is equivalent to a neon sign - would be a mistake.
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by Dynamo Frokane
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<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

How much of the planet should they share in order to be a moral ethnostate, in your view?

<Snipped quote by catchamber>

Can you name an ethnostate that has imploded over shifting or vague definitions of ethnicity? I'm sure this has happened; human history is replete with failed states but do ethnostates implode over shifting and vague definitions of ethnicity with greater frequency than multiethnic states implode over violence between separate ethnic groups?

However your reply implies a rather large degree of confidence that this will occur. Have ethnostates in the past failed due to shifting and vague definitions of ethnicity that we can say with great confidence that a state must be ethnically heterogeneous in order to be stable?


Yes this actually happens constantly, because race and to a larger extent ethnicity is arbitrary, 'ethno-states' are barely ever realised. America is a perfect example, they still cant settle on the lines on what a white person is.

The Irish, Italians, Catholics, Swedes, and a bunch of other groups youd consider white were not always included in that category making an 'ethno-state' pretty damn impossible by any working standard. And then even today there is split opinion over the whiteness of white hispanics, jews, and various arab and medeterrianian groups who may or may not look pretty caucasian.

But the U.S. is complicated right? Lets have a more 'homogenus' example, maybe somehwere like china, or india. They seem like natural ethnostates right?

Well China has around 50 different ethnicities, india has close to a couple hundred, which they can group and recognise but to the westerners eye they probably seem like on race per country.

If you want to go by any working definition of ethnicity, there are very very few ethnostates in the world today, and even places like japan cant qualify when they are encouraging imigration to support their low workforce and stunted birth rates. An ethnostate doesnt ask non native people to come over and live in their country.

As racist as the UK may have been in the 40s if it was an ethnostate it wouldnt have asked carribeans to come over during the 50s to repopulate the workforce after WW2.

I'm not sure what your definition of 'implode' is, but ethnostates are so difficult to put together I doubt any of them have even gotten that far.
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by Dynamo Frokane
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<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

Essentially, this is why I said "I'm not sure how far I'd go with that". The main idea is that, as I said above, it's kinda hard to maintain the identity of a place unless the people that are coming in are willing to assimilate into the culture - and therefore values - of that place. Unfortunately, the places we are talking is predominantly white at the moment, and turning that into anything else - barring a slow process at the end of which I really couldn't give a damn if everyone's skin color is equivalent to a neon sign - would be a mistake.


So help me understand what you mean then, you ARE a civic nationalist, and not a ethno-nationalist.

And you are happy with non whites coming into non white countries as long as they assimilate and it happens gradually?

And how do you feel about white immigration to white counties, like greeks and italians in australia?
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by Kratesis
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<Snipped quote by Kratesis>

Yes this actually happens constantly, because race and to a larger extent ethnicity is arbitrary, 'ethno-states' are barely ever realised. America is a perfect example, they still cant settle on the lines on what a white person is.

The Irish, Italians, Catholics, Swedes, and a bunch of other groups youd consider white were not always included in that category making an 'ethno-state' pretty damn impossible by any working standard. And then even today there is split opinion over the whiteness of white hispanics, jews, and various arab and medeterrianian groups who may or may not look pretty caucasian.


So the United States is an ethnostate? Or was at some point but isn't anymore? And then it imploded because it was an ethnostate? Or it didn't implode because it wasn't an ethnostate?

But the U.S. is complicated right? Lets have a more 'homogenus' example, maybe somehwere like china, or india. They seem like natural ethnostates right?

Well China has around 50 different ethnicities, india has close to a couple hundred, which they can group and recognise but to the westerners eye they probably seem like on race per country.


So China an India are or aren't ethnostates now or at some point in the past? I feel like you are saying they are not and never were but I could be wrong.

If you want to go by any working definition of ethnicity, there are very very few ethnostates in the world today, and even places like japan cant qualify when they are encouraging imigration to support their low workforce and stunted birth rates.


And Japan isn't an ethnostate either by your definition, alright.

Okay so what is your claim here? That ethnostates are so rare we don't know of any and thus we can't say anything about what an ethnostate is because they never existed? The true ethnostate has never been tried?
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by Dynamo Frokane
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Okay so what is your claim here? That ethnostates are so rare we don't know of any and thus we can't say anything about what an ethnostate is because they never existed? The true ethnostate has never been tried?


To dig through all of your pedantic questions this would be closest to my point.

Im saying the very idea of ethno-states is shaky on so many grounds and arbitrary that a place could or could not be an ethno-state depending on who you talk to, Richard Spencer does say that america used to be an ethnostate or at least close to one because it was more than 95% white. Obviously you and others call places like Japan and maybe even india or china ethnostates for the same reason, that their countries 'look' fairly racially homogenous.

Some say an ethno-state has to be a 100% pure, some say above 90% or 85% some say you can have a non native populatiob but as long as the government is working soley in the interests of the native ethnicity. So yeah its hard to say anything about an ethnostate when there is no real settled example, we probably have 4 different interpretations in this thread alone.
Hidden 5 mos ago 5 mos ago Post by Andreyich
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<Snipped quote by Kratesis>
Get two racists in a room together, and you'll get 3 opinions about where the lines between any two given ethnicities begin and end. The very concepts of race and ethnicity are outdated, and it seems they provide many more cons than pros. I imagine the colony would implode over time, due to shifting or vague definitions.


But when it's time to give free shit to blacks and amerindians ethnicity is a simple thing to define.

Besides, Israel is working very well. Admittedly heavily at the expense of minorities but well nonetheless.
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<Snipped quote by catchamber>

But when it's time to give free shit to blacks and amerindians ethnicity is a simple thing to define.


Yeah really easy.
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Richard Spencer does say that america used to be an ethnostate or at least close to one because it was more than 95% white.


Richard Spencer is a moron. Almost 25% of the population was black in 1776.

......Granted, I'm not sure it counts as 'diversity' when 90% are literally enslaved, I'm just saying Spencer is a moron.
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by Dynamo Frokane
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<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

Richard Spencer is a moron. Almost 25% of the population was black in 1776.

......Granted, I'm not sure it counts as 'diversity' when 90% are literally enslaved, I'm just saying Spencer is a moron.


Well as long as he doesn't say the n word, he's A-okay in your book.

And yes, slaves don't count as part of the citizenship.
Hidden 5 mos ago Post by ReonenMiruel
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<Snipped quote by ReonenMiruel>

So help me understand what you mean then, you ARE a civic nationalist, and not a ethno-nationalist.


Yeah, I guess. But the point I'm trying to get through is that some level of ethnocentrism is probably necessary to encourage civic nationalism. Does that make any sense at all?

And you are happy with non whites coming into white countries as long as they assimilate and it happens gradually?


I think this is what you were trying to say, but at any rate, yes. When in Rome, do as Romans do, right?

And how do you feel about white immigration to white counties, like greeks and italians in australia?


At this exact point in time, I reckon you'd find that formerly immigrant families, while maintaining cultural roots, are more, uh, enthusiastic about being 'Australian' than wherever it is their ancestors came from fifty, sixty, seventy years ago. There is hardly anything more Australian than a 19-year-old Lebanese boy raised here crashing his Ute into a tree after doing doughnut work in a yard on Australia Day.

Hidden 5 mos ago 5 mos ago Post by Andreyich
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One exception by a school is not much famalam

But I guess one largely anecdotal tale where the confusion can be understood means affirmative action has been dismantled.

Who's going to celebrate with me?
Hidden 5 mos ago 5 mos ago Post by catchamber
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<Snipped quote by catchamber>

Can you name an ethnostate that has imploded over shifting or vague definitions of ethnicity? I'm sure this has happened; human history is replete with failed states but do ethnostates implode over shifting and vague definitions of ethnicity with greater frequency than multiethnic states implode over violence between separate ethnic groups?

However your reply implies a rather large degree of confidence that this will occur. Have ethnostates in the past failed due to shifting and vague definitions of ethnicity that we can say with great confidence that a state must be ethnically heterogeneous in order to be stable?

Furthermore if this hypothesis is correct what happens if all feelings of racial prejudice and animus between groups in a ethnically heterogeneous state fade away and they intermarry until all ethnic differences are extinguished and they become ethnically homogeneous once again? Does the state become unstable until they can import members of a different ethnic group into their state?

My hypothesis isn't based on the behaviors of past or present human societies on Earth, given they generally don't live in metaphorical and literal vacuums. The ethnostatist Mars colony's implosion would likely be due to the subjectivity of races and ethnicities, combined with a lack of new people joining the colony and adding to its genepool. There are ways around that last part, but in vitro fertilization/gametogenesis could exacerbate the subjectivity issue, especially if the colony is isolated for generations.

After all, one of the assumptions of this thought experiment is that the colonists are objectively grouped by ethnicity. If I ask how this is done, we'll probably debate this matter for the next 5 pages, which will just prove my point.

<Snipped quote by catchamber>

But when it's time to give free shit to blacks and amerindians ethnicity is a simple thing to define, unless you work for the Bureau of Indian Affairs and have to figure out what percentage of ancestry is necessary to get free shit.

Besides, Israel is working very well. Admittedly heavily at the expense of minorities the United States but well nonetheless.

FTFY

<Snipped quote by catchamber>

The idea is that we are currently where we are because of the foundations of Western civilization being what it is, ie based on Greek & Roman philosophy intermingled with Judeo-Christian value systems. These are, for the most part, alien in a lot of cultures outside of ours/this - hence the idea that people coming in should be let in slowly and in a controlled fashion.

That's not ethnostatism.
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