Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[Penny]

Well I disagree with those people regarding politics and therefore they are morally bankrupt.

@mdk

Maybe not bankrupt, but in some cases filing chapter 11.

[mdk]

The winning will continue until morale improves.

[Penny]

I might be forced to extend my contract by six months :(

There is no escape!

[IceHeart]

The only way it would be possible for the entire human race to come together is if everyone could be convinced to accept the same ideology. This is a complete impossibility for many reasons, one easily identifiable reason being the idea that all ideas and ideologies are equally viable. Even people who claim everyone is equal probably don't actually believe it hence, according to that that logic even a racial supremacist has an equal view to a nihilist or whatever ideology you want to put out there.

Diversity is not strength when the members of that diversity are completely opposed to each other. Tolerance has become intolerance and everything has quickly come full circle around to exactly the same problems humanity has been dealing with for all time. For there to even be the remotest possibility for all of humanity to come together, there has to be some kind of unifying ideology for the people to follow, otherwise differences of opinion will inevitably lead to conflict.

As annoying as it might be to admit, the ideologies closest to bringing people together have been and will always be, Religion[that being said there are a lot of 'religions' that cannot do this or are even exclusionary because of the beliefs they hold]. The reason why Religion is, and always will be, the best chance for humanity to come together is because it makes people come together with an easily identifiable foundation like a god.

Of course, I'd say it is safe to say that like any ideology as soon as it gets too big and bulky it starts to be abused by people. Every ideology that attempts to create a global community is doomed to fail because of the humans who try to use it, maybe the ideology is right in what it is trying to accomplish but the execution will always be faulty due to human error, negligence, greed, etc. A world without borders, without killing, without opposing viewpoints is impossible, unless there is some outside force that can straighten things out.

Like it or not, Religions will always exist on this Earth as most people feel that the Earth is way too crazy to ever become a paradise without some external force to right things. Of course, even though it is probably impossible to get everyone on Earth to agree to get along, at the very least don't be part of the problem and do your best to help out.

If you could find a way for Christians, Muslims, and Atheists to exist peacefully together then maybe there would be a chance for world peace. Oh, but then I'd be forgetting the Buddhists, Taoists, Satanists, Shintoists, Judaists, Catholics[as some Christians consider them to be separate from Christianity], Deists, Hindus, and of course all the different sects of all the different religions in the world. People either learn to live with each other or reject each other and because certain ideologies are naturally enemies of the other, rejection will and does happen on a regular basis.

Until a single Ideology/Religion can be shared by all of humanity it is impossible to bring the Earth together, at least in a peaceful way...I for one do not want to see anyone subjected to any kind of tyrannical ideology or government that tries to impose its views on everyone else.

Oh and until North Korea is saved from its evil dictator, there can never be true peace on the Earth XD.

---

I don't blame anyone who didn't bother to read the whole thing. The short and quick is humanity can only be brought together if everyone can accept a single ideology. Also the only likely way for that to happen is through the power of some outside force like God. Best thing we can do as individuals is to help out and be kind and considerate to our fellow man rather than trying to force our ideas on others, if you think your way of thinking is a better way then by all means, share it so people can discuss it and decide for themselves.

[mdk]

*snip*

@IceHeart

Common misconception in the West. The middle east is VERY homogeneous in terms of religion/ideology and it hasn't precisely been a hotbed of peace and unity. And before we blame ALLLLLLL of that on ebul Islam, Ireland wasn't much different back in the IRA glory days.

Everyone being the same (religion, political party, pick your physical or ideological denomination of choice) hasn't brought lasting peace in like any of the places it's happened. If anything it seems to make things worse. It's a total red herring.

The closest thing we've found to a panacea for violence, is democracy. Western democracies don't fight each other, like, ever, in the history of ever. I mean we bomb the living shit out of other countries, all day erry day, but if we just AMERICAIZED everybody else, that would totally stop happening right? So the answer to world peace is TOTAL CONQUEST. YOU MUST SURRENDER UNCONDITIONALLY OR THE BOMBS WILL CONTINUE WITHOUT END. IT'S FOR PEACE.

[Andreyich]

Common misconception in the West. The middle east is VERY homogeneous in terms of religion/ideology and it hasn't precisely been a hotbed of peace and unity. And before we blame ALLLLLLL of that on ebul Islam, Ireland wasn't much different back in the IRA glory days.

Both of those are wrong. Islam has Sunnis and Shiites and there are weird cults of it too (weirder than the normal variant, that is) and Ireland had Catholicism and Protestancy.

Everyone being the same (religion, political party, pick your physical or ideological denomination of choice) hasn't brought lasting peace in like any of the places it's happened. If anything it seems to make things worse. It's a total red herring.

I do agree there however. The left tries to remove "barriers" i.e. language, religion, etc. and make it all one yucky mixed up mongrelized thing like the USSR that tried to standardize Russian, kill off/end religion but you know that didn't really work out well because all these differences are simply natural. No two people are ever alike and that is something that should be celebrated, not destroyed like how neo-marxists are trying to do. I mean, isn't diversity strength? All of these "barriers" are what makes us human, and once you get rid of all of these items you're more or less a non-existent husk with no purpose that I'll use for fertilizer like in waterworld.

The closest thing we've found to a panacea for violence, is democracy. Western democracies don't fight each other, like, ever, in the history of ever. I mean we bomb the living shit out of other countries, all day erry day, but if we just AMERICAIZED everybody else, that would totally stop happening right? So the answer to world peace is TOTAL CONQUEST. YOU MUST SURRENDER UNCONDITIONALLY OR THE BOMBS WILL CONTINUE WITHOUT END. IT'S FOR PEACE.

Wew lad

[mdk]

<Snipped quote>
Both of those are wrong. Islam has Sunnis and Shiites and there are weird cults of it too (weirder than the normal variant, that is) and Ireland had Catholicism and Protestancy.

@Andreyich

Kinda the point though isn't it? Europe got so Christian that people started killing one another over their flavor of Christian, and the same in the middle east with Islam (when they weren't fighting one another). Conformity gained nothing. It's really handy in a war, but not so much when trying to just exist as a country.

[mdk]

(language warning)

[IceHeart]

In the end it is absolutely impossible for there to be peace on this Earth, that being said it is our duty to do the best that we can. Course as a Seventh-Day Adventist I believe that eventually everything will be made right by Jesus' second coming but until that time, gotta work with what we got. Glad I don't have to put all my eggs in the fragile Earth basket that will manage to fail itself one way or the other at this rate.

@mdk Now if everyone could be the same ideology without splintering it would be theoretically possible to have peace on this Earth but in reality everyone has their own ideas and variations which will always muck things up. Since we don't live in such an ideal world just have to try and improve our own systems of government as best we can while helping our fellow man.

The theoreticals aside, now for a more political question. What do you think of North Korea's children's cartoon, Squirrel and Hedgehog?


So the North Koreans are the Squirrels, Americans are Wolves, Japanese are Weasels, South Koreans are Mice and the Russians are Bears, though you won't see that in the clip. Kinda reminded me of the Redwall series a bit if it were in modern times XD.

[Dolerman]

<Snipped quote by Andreyich>

Kinda the point though isn't it? Europe got so Christian that people started killing one another over their flavor of Christian, and the same in the middle east with Islam (when they weren't fighting one another). Conformity gained nothing. It's really handy in a war, but not so much when trying to just exist as a country.

@mdk

[Penny]

Nonsense. If you sufficiently raised the standard of living we could all unite behind hedonistic excess! People go for religion because their lives suck and/or they were brainwashed as children. It can eventually be overcome.

[IceHeart]

Nonsense. If you sufficiently raised the standard of living we could all unite behind hedonistic excess! People go for religion because their lives suck and/or they were brainwashed as children. It can eventually be overcome.

@Penny

Hedonistic excess only goes so far, no matter how much someone has or how good their life is, people will always start to question life, themselves, etc. There is a reason why so many rich and famous people get suckered into weird cults, or suddenly gain religion, because religion helps them fill a certain emptiness and void within themselves that they were unable to fill with all their possessions. No matter how good life gets religion will never disappear for a few reasons.

Things will never buy you happiness and many people are unable to effectively find what can fill their hearts but sometimes religion can help them with that. No matter how much one has often times they will find themselves dissatisfied with life and have a want for something beyond what they can see.

The questions of life will often make someone question their existence and go on a spiritual journey. Why am I here? Is there any point to my life? Is this life really all there is? How did life begin anyway? Many people when they seriously ask those questions will find those answers through some kind of spiritual reflection.

D.E.A.T.H. Death is always on the horizon and many people find religion when they come face to face with death, be it the fear of dying or just the want for something more. As far as we know the only way to beat Death is through a supernatural power which religion often provides, be it a way for eternal life after this one, or a method of breaking the cycle of death.

It is an impossibility for Religion to ever die out.

[Penny]

It is an impossibility for Religion to ever die out.

@IceHeart

Maybe not completely, but with luck and persistence we might get it down to small pox levels. A few examples kept alive in a lab somewhere.

[Andreyich]

At every slightest discovery people have been going "aha, your religion's dead!" and that won't really stop happening because religion shan't ever die out in a real way; there will always be unanswered questions, and of course even if all of them are answered there will yet be more like "why this specific set of rules in the natural world instead of some other one?" which really can only be answered from a supernatural point of view.

Hedonistic excess was an attempt as an answer before but the people of this excess generally were "weaker" and lead to their own downfall; people of religion were the ones who usually pulled people out of these pitfalls, be it a long time ago with Constantine, Martin Luther, Kirkegaard, the counter-revolutionaries in Eastern Europe, or as of recent Prof. Jordan Peterson. We might some day outgrow organized religion but spirituality will never, ever really disappear.

[mdk]

At every slightest discovery people have been going "aha, your religion's dead!" and that won't really stop happening because religion shan't ever die out in a real way; there will always be unanswered questions, and of course even if all of them are answered there will yet be more like "why this specific set of rules in the natural world instead of some other one?" which really can only be answered from a supernatural point of view.

Hedonistic excess was an attempt as an answer before but the people of this excess generally were "weaker" and lead to their own downfall; people of religion were the ones who usually pulled people out of these pitfalls, be it a long time ago with Constantine, Martin Luther, Kirkegaard, the counter-revolutionaries in Eastern Europe, or as of recent Prof. Jordan Peterson. We might some day outgrow organized religion but spirituality will never, ever really disappear.

@Andreyich

Add to this, the point of religion is not to disprove science, and the point of science is not to disprove religion. They exist in two completely separate realms -- the observable, and the unobservable -- and they only get conflated because people are dumb (observable). I typed this post while sticking out my tongue -- whether you choose to believe that, or to disbelieve it, you are just a stupid pile of human flesh with no way of knowing. Maybe don't wrap your ENTIRE LIFE around me sticking out my tongue, but also, there's no sense calling the people who buy it stupid. They know as much as you do, and hey, maybe they're right.

[Penny]

Which really can only be answered from a supernatural point of view.

@Andreyich

These are not real explanations. I think it is entirely possible that we can get people to change their mindset from 'God Did It' to well that is interesting, lets investigate and find out the answer, just like every scientific discovery in history.

Hedonistic excess was an attempt as an answer before but the people of this excess generally were "weaker" and lead to their own downfall;

@Andreyich

Sure you will always be able to tell people that they can get their eternity in paradise if they kill the infidel and motivate them to fight.

We might some day outgrow organized religion but spirituality will never, ever really disappear.

@Andreyich

I'll take killing organised religion. It might be impossible to eradicate the lucky rabbits foot or whatever other spiritual practice you want to name. Some spiritual practices, such as meditation, might eventually be moved into the realm of science.

[The Harbinger of Ferocity]

Religion has existed since the most primitive of days in human existence. No amount of effort to change or eliminate it will ever remove the spiritual question of mankind. It is naive to believe it will disappear; it will continue to change and adapt as it has, just not too radically as other questions of existence like the functions of the universe.

As it was said before, it is not the duty of science to disprove faith or the purpose of faith to ignore science. They are unrelated spheres that people have crossed. You can use one in the other and vice versa, but you dilute them both to varying extents.

The subject of faith, I might add, is as much a source of conflict as anything else - again going back to early humans. Even the relative in Neanderthal apparently had basic religion or spiritual practice. No less, it seems many of these early religions had violence in them as a recurring theme, but their entire life was violent be it escaping predators or going on the hunt; religion is not special in this regard and it is not some great Boogeyman in the dark of humanity's. People will kill one another in the name of anything or anyone as an attempt for justification. The difference with any faith based question, spirituality or not, is that it relies upon a mechanic that more or less cannot readily be beaten. That question is belief, or in essence the subject that deals whether one thinks it to be true or not. Their perceptions and convictions in that are everything.

Organized religion is just as much a tool of that predisposition to leverage belief as anything else, just as much as the rallying cry of some political doctrines or "scientific" efforts to exterminate people's or "purify" bloodlines.

[Penny]

Religion has existed since the most primitive of days in human existence. No amount of effort to change or eliminate it will ever remove the spiritual question of mankind.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.

Although the likelihood is we will wipe ourselves out before the heat death of the universe.

Hunger has also existed since prehistory. It dosent seem unreasonable that it could one day be conquered. There has been an enormous upsurge in atheistic sentiment in the past hundred years or so. With any luck it can continue. It might take millennia more, but I believe in us!

As it was said before, it is not the duty of science to disprove faith or the purpose of faith to ignore science. They are unrelated spheres that people have crossed. You can use one in the other and vice versa, but you dilute them both to varying extents.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

Religion makes scientific claims. It always has. God created man, earth is the center of the universe and so on. In so much as religion makes false and baseless claims it IS the duty of science to disprove it. There are religions that have minimal supernaturalism which are less in conflict with a scientific world view but so long as religion makes claims about the nature of the universe it is advancing a hypothesis which can and should be tested in the realm of science.

I'll continue to hope that with enough time and education we can outgrow the training wheels of our species.

[mdk]

Religion makes scientific claims. It always has. God created man, earth is the center of the universe and so on. In so much as religion makes false and baseless claims it IS the duty of science to disprove it.

@Penny

If we could just go back to what science used to mean, I'd be a lot more comfortable with it. Science is kinda garbage right now, largely because of financial/political pressures on the people conducting it.

[Andreyich]

modern science in a nutshell