[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[Skallagrim]

Melon, I have no control over you accepting the hit if you can avoid it. If I fire a three-round burst at you, but you have cover, or have a magical blue shield that covers your body you can avoid the hit. Only you can accept a hit. All I can do is write my shooting at you and where I am shooting at, hoping that I have locked you into a position where you cannot avoid it and thus take the hit.

[Rilla]

I'm thinking, if you're gonna fight a gun user, and you not have any, you should probably always go to bat for a cover-rich field(not an open plain, or a DBZ like arena; but a forest, a building, somewhere you have places to hide), and feasibly not start off that close.

otherwise, really nothing stopping a sniper from just starting/getting in position and picking people off 2 posts into the match.

[MelonHead]

Melon, I have no control over you accepting the hit if you can avoid it. If I fire a three-round burst at you, but you have cover, or have a magical blue shield that covers your body you can avoid the hit. Only you can accept a hit. All I can do is write my shooting at you and where I am shooting at, hoping that I have locked you into a position where you cannot avoid it and thus take the hit.

@Skallagrim

I think the problem is how easy it is to be assured that your opponent can't do anything to avoid the attack, provided your working with real physics and what-not (which I suppose most fights tend to let slide for the rule of cool and all that.) which essentially means you've scored the next best thing after a force hit.

There aren't many circumstances where I could imagine any of my characters up to mid tier being able to escape the path of a bullet, and any of the fleshy ones are almost certain to take debilitating damage. Although I never would try and dodge a bullet, I tend to interrupt and make my dodge the moment my character sees a gun pointed at them, which sets the reaction/reflex speed limitation against my opponent as well.

[Skallagrim]

Well any gunfighter worth their salt is going to try and get close in-order to get you in the kill-zone. I am not firing from a distance unless I need to, to many things can go wrong. Even the best sniper misses. No, I want you as close as possible while still keeping me safe.

Bravo Melon on your interrupts . . . that is the proper use of them. You act when you see the action begin. The truth is there are a lot of myths surrounding guns and gun fights. Being shot at, even in training exercises is not fun, but it teaches you to use cover. Simunition puts the fear of God into you when you get hit, and makes you remember the CQB techniques designed to keep you alive.

[Vordak]

Guns are pretty high tier, so you could just use a high-tier character. Camouflage, illusion spells, armor, regeneration, speed, use of cover, deception - combine all that in one character, and you'll hardly get hit by any kind of modern gun.

But i think that you don't even have to be all that powerful, just versatile enough: if he had body armor or even just a pack of smokebombs, im pretty sure Vos could fight on even ground with Mac Leod. A cast of Black & White to reduce his visibility, throw around some smoke to hide, and upon having the spell go off, simply rush in and take the kill. A viable tactic if executed well enough, and even more so with body armor.

[Innue]

<Snipped quote by Skallagrim>

I think the problem is how easy it is to be assured that your opponent can't do anything to avoid the attack, provided your working with real physics and what-not (which I suppose most fights tend to let slide for the rule of cool and all that.) which essentially means you've scored the next best thing after a force hit.

There aren't many circumstances where I could imagine any of my characters up to mid tier being able to escape the path of a bullet, and any of the fleshy ones are almost certain to take debilitating damage. Although I never would try and dodge a bullet, I tend to interrupt and make my dodge the moment my character sees a gun pointed at them, which sets the reaction/reflex speed limitation against my opponent as well.

@MelonHead

Going off of this, a lot of my issue goes with the follow up. While it is true as Melon said that you can react to the weapon being pointed at you, the subsequent adjustments of the weapon make that less viable as an option since they are much smaller movements and the effort to continue to avoid the weapon is far more significant than the required adjustments to the aim.

[Rilla]

Well any gunfighter worth their salt is going to try and get close in-order to get you in the kill-zone. I am not firing from a distance unless I need to, to many things can go wrong. Even the best sniper misses. No, I want you as close as possible while still keeping me safe.

@Skallagrim

then you working for that. hahahaha.

I'm posting today. I've just gotta get my baby stuff stacked out in the living room for ease of movement, then I'm good.

i believe I'm gonna enjoy my story with Pikatok, it should be a good one, as well as working within the limits of a human diving under water.

[Skallagrim]

Innue, have you been in a firefight? You know that is not true. Moving to hit a target is much harder then hitting a stationary target. A moving target requires you to move as well, to try and keep a shot lined up. If cover is involved and they make it to cover you now need to work twice as hard to get the shot as they ain't gonna sit still.

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

Going off of this, a lot of my issue goes with the follow up. While it is true as Melon said that you can react to the weapon being pointed at you, the subsequent adjustments of the weapon make that less viable as an option since they are much smaller movements and the effort to continue to avoid the weapon is far more significant than the required adjustments to the aim.

@Innue

Yeah, if you don't have cover at that point or you're not close enough to prevent them using their gun it's pretty much game over if you're locked into melee.

Which drags me back to my earliest point, that automatic weapons tend to be the sticking point for me in general combat. Single shots and low fire rate weapons can definitely be matched by a lot of fantasy characters, machine guns cannot. (most of the time)

[MelonHead]

Innue, have you been in a firefight? You know that is not true. Moving to hit a target is much harder then hitting a stationary target. A moving target requires you to move as well, to try and keep a shot lined up. If cover is involved and they make it to cover you now need to work twice as hard to get the shot as they ain't gonna sit still.

@Skallagrim

The problem with citing the difficulty of such action only really applies to lower tier characters. Because someone can bring a gun and a host of other supernatural skills that makes them insane marksmen and still sit comfortably in the mid-tier range they have the inherent advantage that causes all these issues.

I can say it's hard as fuck to shoot a moving target though, in my experience it was paintball and one of my particularly fast friends though, so the far superior speed of a bullet may have made it easier even for a relative amateur like me.

[Rilla]

I'm thinking a demonstration is in order, during which(perhaps if Innue and Skallagrim) both can demonstrate their respective points during the posts.

It's one thing to explain it. Another to actually put it in motion.

[Vordak]

BTW, an important point you have forgot to address is the damage done by bullets and their interaction with armor. Normal humans can take multiple shots from a handgun without even being severely crippled; of course, they have to be lucky enough to not get hit in the vitals, but that still counts as surviving. A mid-tier character would be capable of much more with proper armor and speed, a vest with ballistic inserts allowing to take a few shots from a rifle and proper footwork and movements would allow to dazzle a gunman and prevent him from inflicting any serious damage with the bullets that hit.

[Skallagrim]

That adage of running and zigzagging to not get hit works. The more exaggerated the movements the more random the less likely you will be hit. And that is with in the 'kill-zone' the farther you are, the lower you are and the faster you run makes it more difficult to get an accurate shot on target. Not impossible but much, much harder.

[Innue]

Innue, have you been in a firefight? You know that is not true. Moving to hit a target is much harder then hitting a stationary target. A moving target requires you to move as well, to try and keep a shot lined up. If cover is involved and they make it to cover you now need to work twice as hard to get the shot as they ain't gonna sit still.

@Skallagrim

No, but I've shot enough at moving targets. Math also supports my statement.

Of course it is harder to hit a moving target, but given the incredible aim roleplaying characters have it is entirely irrelevant. You are essentially requiring enough cover in order to balance the weapon and cover close enough to a person that they can reach it before they are shot. Throw in the extra items to force people out of cover that many have, the weapon becomes a problem.

[Skallagrim]

Ok. So you are dealing with the player not the character. If a player is a dickhead, no matter what they use; magic, guns, or galaxies they will be a dickhead getting in the perfect hit, the never miss and the always on target shots. If you are fighting T1 there really is no inherent problems with gunfighters.

[MelonHead]

Ok. So you are dealing with the player not the character. If a player is a dickhead, no matter what they use; magic, guns, or galaxies they will be a dickhead getting in the perfect hit, the never miss and the always on target shots. If you are fighting T1 there really is no inherent problems with gunfighters.

@Skallagrim

This does tend to be the biggest problem with fighters. Marksmanship is probably the one area where I would generally recommend a dice system of some form.

I try and miss about one in every three of my shots, carrying over into other fights, just to keep things realistic for my own benefit.

[Skallagrim]

I don't even try and miss, I just write that I am shooting at them and the general area I am aiming for. I always allow that the other is going to interrupt or has the ability, either through powers or terrain the chance to avoid the bullets. Of course when they get close I tend to hold my shot until I get it so I cannot miss them because they are doing something dumb, like running at me when I back myself into a corner and they have no way to avoid the hit.

[Rilla]

SKALLY RUSH

-shot-

Damn it.

[MelonHead]

Of course when they get close I tend to hold my shot until I get it so I cannot miss them because they are doing something dumb, like running at me when I back myself into a corner and they have no way to avoid the hit.

@Skallagrim

If they're locked into melee though what choice do they have? This is where my samurai analogy comes back out.

It does significantly limit the amount of characters that can effectively fight guns.

I guess you could say the same about flying opponents though, which accounts for the somewhat lack-lustre end to the WOTW tournament the year prior to when I showed up.

[Skallagrim]

Not really. If you have a fire user, and I am in a corner what stops you from setting the building on fire to get me out of my hole and into a better place for you to engage me? If you use water what stops you from creating some water effect or darkness or any of the other magics people have. If you are locked in melee person but have a shield that can stop a giants blow, yeah you can move in and be safe. If you are a flier, well then I hate you because either I come out or it becomes a draw. There are many, many ways to fight a gun fighter. The issue is most people don't actually think and use the terrain to their advantage while gun fighters have to.