[OOC] Arena Chat Thread

[Skallagrim]

I can link it in a bit. Though if you have time you can. Either way it will get there.

[Rilla]

I'll get it. I just woke back up. Had to rush out before six to get my girl up to her ride. We woke up at the time we were supposed to leave. Hahah.

[tubba]

I'm new to the site and would love to learn how arena role play works and how to create characters. If anyone has the time pm me plz

[MelonHead]

I think the issue with firearms is that the damage they do is already determined by physics, there's nothing inherently abstract about the damage a bullet will do. As most people tend to play characters with inhuman accuracy, they're never going to have their character miss, so the opponent has to have a defence available to block the bullet which is also incredibly difficult due to the speed it flies.

I wish that with projectiles you could just say 'well... they missed' or there was a system in place to take into account how even the most well trained soldier in the world still misses the majority of their shots unless they spend a long time calibrating (aka prepping.)

This is why I find weapons which aren't automatic fairer, for example the Clockwork Man and his Clockwork Pistol, or Isaac and his old fashioned flintlocks.

[Rilla]

tubba, feel free to ask in tge FAQ thread, or PM me.

Melon, honestly, you can probably say they missed. Hahaha. at greater ranges it becomes easier to play off, but at shorter ranges, not so much. But yeah, inhuman accuracy doesn't amount to a whole lot, as often sheets aren't written in reference to another person.

so still, you can be inhumanly accurate, but youre going up against someone who isn't acting like you wrote in your sheet. Plus with the whole prepping business.

[Skallagrim]

Well no one in a text game is applying any logic to dodging a lightning bolt, or dodging a wind attack that can cut through armor. If you want the 'logic' of damage all magical fire, ice, lightning et al must then find a real world correlation. Everyone wants to limit a gun but doing so we must then state the imaginary non-science based attacks must be equally bound.

[Innue]

Well no one in a text game is applying any logic to dodging a lightning bolt, or dodging a wind attack that can cut through armor. If you want the 'logic' of damage all magical fire, ice, lightning et al must then find a real world correlation. Everyone wants to limit a gun but doing so we must then state the imaginary non-science based attacks must be equally bound.

@Skallagrim

Magic has the benefit of being able to be restricted appropriately by altering the behavior of the spell.

Restricting weapons appropriately is inherently more difficult given what they are based off of.

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

Rilla, magic and technology are opposites. Magic bends physical law to the will of the mage. Technology depends on physical law. In the arena the use of technology reinforces physical law, countering the effect of magic.

A magic using individual casting an offensive spell works by summoning some form of fire/ lightning bolt / ice/ acid etc. out of thin air (physically impossible!), and then accelerating that flame/ lightning bolt/ ice shard/ acid spray to high speed along a finely controlled trajectory, merely by force of will (also physically impossible). In contrast, a gun takes advantage of several physical laws to achieve the same ends.

If we accept the possibility of magic in textual combat then the reality of firearms does not become anything other than another form of attacking your opponent. Bullets do not automatically kill your opponent; they do not automatically penetrate armor any more than a spell does. Like all T1 attacks prepping is required to do substantial damage. With firearms it is more difficult to attain the ‘preps” because you cannot continually aim at the target.

Prepping is achieved easily with ‘powered’ weapons such as lasers and particle-beam guns by simply stating that the character is powering the weapon up. With gunpowder weapons it is more difficult. I have in the past used the word focused, focusing, focus on etc. to build up ‘preps’. This allows for cues that the opponent may see as the gunfighter is targeting them. These cues are no different than prepping a spell with the descriptors congruent with the magic the caster is employing.

Other than that gunfighters and spell casters are very similar, both require preps to establish the power to break through their opponents prepped defenses. As for bullets, guns fire a maximum of three bullets per attack and guns do run out of ammo, after ‘X’ number of attacks.

@Skallagrim

Not that I want to debate semantics.

Actually it isn't physically impossible for those things to be created out of thin air. It is currently a scientific stretch utilizing Einstien's E=mc2, but if you delve into various theories in quantum mechanics you would have other alternatives to creating a method for accomplishing these things. The same would apply to movement. The stretch would be in the potency of the energy.

For the prep on a gunpowder firearm you also run into issues. In less powered combat you would be forced to outright limit basic movement capabilities of a standard human in order to create any form of equatable preparation between magic and guns. A gun, once aimed, required significantly less effort to fire a second shot than it does to create an entirely new spell with the added benefit of being able to easily adjust. Even seeing someone aim at you with a weapon, in a properly, reasonably constructed post, is still inadequate in almost all instances in terms of providing counterplay.

The limiting of number of rounds per attack is interesting, but personally I feel it feels awkward as a restriction. It restricts playstyle without addressing what I feel are the underlying problems with most firearms.

[Rilla]

what do you feel are the underlying issues of firearms?

[Tuujaimaa]

Firearms fire projectiles at an exceptionally high speed.

Assuming a standard distance of fifty feet away from an opponent, firing a gun at them will cause the bullet to literally hit the opponent before they have time to process the reaction. Humanoids all have the fundamental flaw of having an absolute minimum reaction time based on their neurotransmitter-based biology, and guns exploit that incredibly well. The only thing one can do to avoid immediate death by gunshot is prepare a defense in advance.

I'd also like to point out:

Magic and Technology are not opposites. They are two methods of achieving the same goal - one of which is reliant on mana (or another energy that takes the place of mana) and another which is realiant on using non-mana sources. They are both simply methods of achieving an effect.

[Skallagrim]

I'm not going to debate you on the points of science because it is your scientific interpretation of the observable consequences of these theories to make magic work except for the guns. Military/Law enforcement and civilian M4/Ar-15 (the most common rifle in America) have a selector switch; single shot or three-round burst. While you personally feel it is awkward as a restriction, the military and law enforcement as well as the gun manufacturers do not find it in any way limiting.

The best option is never fight anyone with a gun. Simple as that. If you personally feel it is unfair and somehow more unbalanced than a character that can manipulate unseen energies to make magic work, or have characters that can move at incredible speeds or any of the other events that characters seemingly can do in these role-plays, that's fine. That is your option.

[MelonHead]

To be fair, something I don't think I've seen anyone ever take into account is recoil, which would effectively limit you to a short burst of accurate fire as Skallagrim said, before you couldn't logically be firing with the same accuracy.

The issue is with the fact that the gun-user has control over if their shots are accurate or not, and with the travel speed and general short preparation time of guns, its almost the equivalent of a force hit at very low tiers, just because it is so much faster than most characters can react.

To sum it up in a nut shell, the reason why guns seem unfair can be explained by a historical example. If you gave me a pistol and set me up against a samurai who had trained his entire life with the katana, and set us about twenty feet apart, I'd still probably kick his ass 9 times out of 10 with my lack of experience or training or skill or anything remotely resembling talent, just by merit of my gun. Melee characters have such an inherent disadvantage against anything other than a single shot weapon (provided it has the capacity to quickly kill them, which it usually does.) that it throws a spanner in the tier system.

The point Tuuj that you keep making about reflex speeds of biological creatures is somewhat pointless though, as magic can easily allow you to circumnavigate those restrictions.

[Innue]

I'm not going to debate you on the points of science because it is your scientific interpretation of the observable consequences of these theories to make magic work except for the guns. Military/Law enforcement and civilian M4/Ar-15 (the most common rifle in America) have a selector switch; single shot or three-round burst. While you personally feel it is awkward as a restriction, the military and law enforcement as well as the gun manufacturers do not find it in any way limiting.

The best option is never fight anyone with a gun. Simple as that. If you personally feel it is unfair and somehow more unbalanced than a character that can manipulate unseen energies to make magic work, or have characters that can move at incredible speeds or any of the other events that characters seemingly can do in these role-plays, that's fine. That is your option.

@Skallagrim

And it is an option I exercise liberally. I've also expressed my opinions on super speed on more than one occasion.

For the science, it isn't really just my interpretation of things.

You cannot equate standards set by an organization for safety with restrictions for balance in text combat - especially with your chosen one when it is merely an choice. Who would use such a restriction in text combat when they are actively trying to win? It also restricts a playstyle without addressing the actual problem at the tiers of combat that guns often can appear at. As I stated before, you do have higher levels of power where such a weapon is a non-issue.

what do you feel are the underlying issues of firearms?

@Rilla

A lot of what Tuuj said.

If you look at the end goal of firing a projectile that can yield a particular amount of damage, the guns provide exceptionally less effort and people are generally more willing to let them behave without restrictions like you could easily incorporate into a spell to make it balanced. Bullets move faster than many people are willing to let magic spells, while still requiring some kind of more complex preparation (incantation).

They just move too fast and require little effort AND continue to persist at a tier of power where most of the abilities of others cannot compete.

[Skallagrim]

No that is a fallacy. The gun owner has no more control over there shot than an elf with an arrow, or a wizard with a lighting bolt.

Your samurai argument is invalid. The samurai does not control magical forces, does not move at faster than human speeds, fly or any other event that characters in arena role-plays can do. If you are fighting a realistic fight then it comes down to cover and fire to win. If you are fighting against a character that is beyond human then the gun and it's properties are just as valid an attack as a spirit attack or having an immortal who has mastered untold forms of combat.

Ultimately you never have to fight anyone with a gun. It is an age old argument since the beginning of chat room combat. There are plenty of fantasy fighters to satisfy you, just as there are tech fighters to fill my whims when I need them.

[Innue]

To be fair, something I don't think I've seen anyone ever take into account is recoil, which would effectively limit you to a short burst of accurate fire as Skallagrim said, before you couldn't logically be firing with the same accuracy.

The issue is with the fact that the gun-user has control over if their shots are accurate or not, and with the travel speed and general short preparation time of guns, its almost the equivalent of a force hit at very low tiers, just because it is so much faster than most characters can react.

To sum it up in a nut shell, the reason why guns seem unfair can be explained by a historical example. If you gave me a pistol and set me up against a samurai who had trained his entire life with the katana, and set us about twenty feet apart, I'd still probably kick his ass 9 times out of 10 with my lack of experience or training or skill or anything remotely resembling talent, just by merit of my gun. Melee characters have such an inherent disadvantage against anything other than a single shot weapon (provided it has the capacity to quickly kill them, which it usually does.) that it throws a spanner in the tier system.

The point Tuuj that you keep making about reflex speeds of biological creatures is somewhat pointless though, as magic can easily allow you to circumnavigate those restrictions.

@MelonHead

Well put.

Although, reflex speeds from Tuuj are a valid point. You not only have to process the action, but you'd have to actually move it. Being able to process it is one thing. Being able to move fast enough (via magic/special ability) to deal with it is another and that would likely classify you in a different tier of power.

[Rilla]

personally, I would either not fight them, or treat them like magic.

As Skally said, we have no issue avoiding lightning bolts, or any other form of magic, so why should bullets be any different. Sure, real world rules apply and all, but at some point we'd have to address why I can shoot magic bolts of electricity from my fingers.

in other words, dodge it like you would anything else. You see a person aiming a fire staff at you, you run and dodge, and generally try and stay out of the fire thats surely coming. Do that with a gun. If they aren't prepped/adequately aimed, chances are they aren't gonna be accurate(unless its anime, or something, where you can lazily point and shoot), I believe the general term is 'firing from the hip', which isn't wholly accurate anyway.

another is 'spray and pray'

Sure, my idea may cause some issues as it seems like I'm slowing down the speed of the bullets, but I do that with magic anyway. Actually, of late, Frokane is the only one who hasn't tried to dodge something that, in the real world, would be virtually impossible to dodge(See: Kusanagi).

So yeah, dodge is like you do magic, or toss up that fancy shield, raise that solidly packed dirt. Howver you would dodge in a magic fire fight, do it with guns; unless the fight is strictly real world based.

want an example? Try and remember Gunfight For No Reason. No way those were supposed to last past the first one or two posts.

[MelonHead]

No that is a fallacy. The gun owner has no more control over there shot than an elf with an arrow, or a wizard with a lighting bolt.

Your samurai argument is invalid. The samurai does not control magical forces, does not move at faster than human speeds, fly or any other event that characters in arena role-plays can do. If you are fighting a realistic fight then it comes down to cover and fire to win. If you are fighting against a character that is beyond human then the gun and it's properties are just as valid an attack as a spirit attack or having an immortal who has mastered untold forms of combat.

Ultimately you never have to fight anyone with a gun. It is an age old argument since the beginning of chat room combat. There are plenty of fantasy fighters to satisfy you, just as there are tech fighters to fill my whims when I need them.

@Skallagrim

Well, it's not invalid, because I am also a complete incompetent with a gun, can't move quickly, don't have superhuman accuracy, etc, so we're effectively at the same tier (potentially he would be even higher.) and I'd still almost always win.

I don't understand your point about the lack of control however, if the person launching an attack can't choose how they're attacking and then gauge their success at pulling off an action (not landing an attack, but performing it) then I don't see who can. It would be a little bullshit if the person being attacked could throw off your aim by essentially controlling your character and just saying they missed their target.

It is a cyclical debate though, I believe it's just best to set up characters around the same genre, tech v tech, magic v fantasy, it's better for all involved.

It only really becomes an issue in tournaments, with forced match-ups.

[Innue]

personally, I would either not fight them, or treat them like magic.

As Skally said, we have no issue avoiding lightning bolts, or any other form of magic, so why should bullets be any different. Sure, real world rules apply and all, but at some point we'd have to address why I can shoot magic bolts of electricity from my fingers.

in other words, dodge it like you would anything else. You see a person aiming a fire staff at you, you run and dodge, and generally try and stay out of the fire thats surely coming. Do that with a gun. If they aren't prepped/adequately aimed, chances are they aren't gonna be accurate(unless its anime, or something, where you can lazily point and shoot), I believe the general term is 'firing from the hip', which isn't wholly accurate anyway.

another is 'spray and pray'

Sure, my idea may cause some issues as it seems like I'm slowing down the speed of the bullets, but I do that with magic anyway. Actually, of late, Frokane is the only one who hasn't tried to dodge something that, in the real world, would be virtually impossible to dodge(See: Kusanagi).

So yeah, dodge is like you do magic, or toss up that fancy shield, raise that solidly packed dirt. Howver you would dodge in a magic fire fight, do it with guns; unless the fight is strictly real world based.

want an example? Try and remember Gunfight For No Reason. No way those were supposed to last past the first one or two posts.

@Rilla

The fire isn't typically moving at a speed that it is actually undodgeable.

We can also address how you can do that if you wish to apply real world behavior to it.

[Rilla]

<Snipped quote by Skallagrim>

Well, it's not invalid, because I am also a complete incompetent with a gun, can't move quickly, don't have superhuman accuracy, etc, so we're effectively at the same tier (potentially he would be even higher.) and I'd still almost always win.

I don't understand your point about the lack of control however, if the person launching an attack can't choose how they're attacking and then gauge their success at pulling off an action (not landing an attack, but performing it) then I don't see who can. It would be a little bullshit if the person being attacked could throw off your aim by essentially controlling your character and just saying they missed their target.

It is a cyclical debate though, I believe it's just best to set up characters around the same genre, tech v tech, magic v fantasy, it's better for all involved.

It only really becomes an issue in tournaments, with forced match-ups.

@MelonHead

I think mainly what he is saying, is after release(unless the person can then control the released energy, as some presumably can). Hence the arrow reference. You can point, and shoot, but from then on, it's down to a hope and a prayer. It's different if you can then twitch a finger or two to control the direction of your projectile.

[MelonHead]

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

I think mainly what he is saying, is after release(unless the person can then control the released energy, as some presumably can). Hence the arrow reference. You can point, and shoot, but from then on, it's down to a hope and a prayer. It's different if you can then twitch a finger or two to control the direction of your projectile.

@Rilla

Well, that is predominantly how bullets differ from most other attacks, because the point its facing after leaving the barrel is 99/100 the point its going to be hitting in fractions of a second, especially at the sort of range most most fights take place.

[Rilla]

<Snipped quote by Rilla>

The fire isn't typically moving at a speed that it is actually undodgeable.

We can also address how you can do that if you wish to apply real world behavior to it.

@Innue

in some instances, its close enough, that people shouldn't - but still do - dodge it and only get a little singe.

but as far as a fantasy match up, I wouldn't see a problem with dodging it, at a great enough distance. the way people end up describing everything anyway, they usually don't 'miss' any thing, so if you're aiming at me, or moving into position to aim, with a gun, or a fire staff, or pointing stick of doom - anyone's inital reaction is to run, and dodge. Unless they are A) completely confident, B) frozen stiff out of fear, or C) In a movie/book