BrokenPromise

yeah

I like how the cat was actually a human, and the mouse was actually a monkey.

there's a proverb about being yourself in there some place.

<Insert Name; Will Edit Once Not Busy> {Hang-out Thread}

2. I do lurk around and read RPs I'm not participating in - some of them were good reads, even if I'm not a player (and I don't plan to join). I won't like the GM and the players judging me for dropping by even though I'm not in their game.

@tsukune

When someone is looking at an RP I'm in but doesn't post anything, I feel a bit exposed, naked even. There's momentary embarrassment followed by a mild anxiety as I wonder what the reader is going to do next. Will they join? Will they comment? But they do neither and just leave. Then like anyone who's just been caught naked, I'm left to wonder if they enjoyed the show or not.

I've never judged them, just worried about their judgement.

<Insert Name; Will Edit Once Not Busy> {Hang-out Thread}

I am turning invisible

@carla6677

What makes this even funnier is that there's a chameleon in the avatar.

1x1 Combat (D&D Style)

You've also completely ignored the point I've made about how higher tier settings can negate any of the logical reasons for why said archer would miss in the first place - due to whatever superpower they have - despite this being a counterargument that the arena forum regulars have been agreeing with.

@Shoryu Magami

Do keep in mind i've been doing this roll play dance for over a decade now. I have quite the backlog of people who agree with me and yadda yadda. I just don't cite them as reliable sources because "More people agree with me than you!" is an extremely weak argument.

Simply put, when you deal with high power settings, you have to assume that both fighters are in a like range of power. Let's upgrade my badass ranger to the goddess of arrows. Her arrows defy all logic and always hit their mark. For a decent fight, we need to put her up against another god that can somehow negate what is essentially "god modding" for a fair fight, and that means making her able to miss via whatever powers the other god has. Maybe the arrows harmlessly pass through his mist form, or maybe they bounce off his armor most of the time? If there was no way for the other player to avoid being turned into a pin cushion on battle entry, I'm sure someone would ask me to nerf my arrow goddess.

While higher tiers make the fights more sophisticated, they are still fundamentally the same. There needs to be room for every attack to fail, or at least be avoided by the other party. The only think higher tiers changes is flavor.

However, this is the exact same situation as free-form role-playing -- in free-form role-playing, there'd be no drama if people didn't look for every logical opportunity to out-debate and counter their opponent's actions to keep things interesting. When all is said and done, where you draw the line and say 'enough is enough' is all a matter of personal preference, and also something that would be discussed before a duel takes place if good groundwork (a concept you haven't shown any appreciation for but is nevertheless the agreed upon foundation of good duelling between myself and everyone I've been discussing this thread with) is used. That's really no different to not using mechanics or game rules you don't like.

@Shoryu Magami

I don't like debating, despite what my time in this thread might have you believe. I'd rather fight the character than the player. Other players attempts to squeeze out a tactic that would never work, recover from a lethal attack, etc, ruins the immersion for me. There's a difference between a desperate fighter and a desperate writer. I realize it works for the regulars, but it didn't work every time I tried it. Again, this is just preference. different for everyone. But that's the key reason why I like the idea of dice.

No one has yet to specify what good groundwork is, just that it balances everything. Maybe there's a guide to help me understand?

They don't need to play with a specific system -- they've played D&D and this entire thread's point was a discussion about whether or not D&D mechanics were appropriate for utilization in a role-playing duel; honestly, the fact that you have your own system is irrelevant to it. Nevertheless, these people agree with me about Tabletop mechanics stifling creativity and detail - as well as weakening realism.

@Shoryu Magami

I just don't feel the big question is over, which is if RPG elements belong in the arena. I mean sure, I could make a new topic, but I don't plan on making more than a few posts here so it seems kind of silly to do so. at least before I finally work out everything (if I ever do). I still say it's relevant to the topic, as the OP stated they wanted to use D&D 3.5 because it was most popular and easiest for people who know it to transition to.

And people genuinely hate new ideas when they've become comfortable with something that works. And the arena does work, so why dedicate time to learning how to RPG?

I've actually made a point that I've run systems like what you're suggesting myself -- I know how to balance them, but that doesn't mean I like them or think they result in good writing.

@Shoryu Magami

And all I can do is question how well it was done, just as you have every right to question the free-form battles I've participated in.

.
.
.

You are probably right that the table top section would be a better place to have a fight of this sort. Certainly it is worth discussing with them, people who adore complex rule sets and the like.

Something else to keep in mind is that there is a lady on here (the forum, not the arena) who runs all of her non-tabletop RPs with dice rolls and bits of randomness and is revered as one of the best GMs on this forum. While the arena goers may not like the idea, there is evidence that dice rolls and good writing can co-exist.

1x1 Combat (D&D Style)

@Shoryu Magami Both of us have grounds to cry wolf, but that was a full week ago.

Do know that my goal is not to convince you, or people who side with you, that "dice > free-form," or that every arena RP should be a dice battle. as I've said in the past, I'm well aware it will never work for you. It's to figure out exactly why dice have failed in the past and make a system that people who side with me find enjoyable to play. Please do not read too much into my own opinions. I'm aware I use absolutes a lot in my opinions, like "nobody" and "everyone", but I am talking about my kind of crowd when I do that.

Now that game mechanics are being tested and things are starting to take shape, one has to be careful how they present speculations. Things like past experiences, analogies, and even opinions were helpful in the beginning. But in the face of a beta system or counter points built on new ideas, those tools make for weak counter points by themselves.

-Attacks miss too often? Clearly this is a balance issue. I'd increase the chance of a hit happening to counter this.

-As I've been saying... There should be a complete disconnect between the game and the prose. For some reason you're hung up on the fact that a miss on a dice means you have to write it as your characters fault. You don't. If my badass ranger was as accurate as I wanted them to be, they'd put an arrow in your throat first round and the battle would be over. Not much drama in that. Speaking of which, Just because a dice says I missed doesn't even mean I have to miss! The attack just won't contribute to my ranger's potential victory because it did no HP damage.

-The house rule that a critical miss means you have to injure yourself is also simple to fix. DON'T USE IT! (unless you like it of course)

-None of your friends played with my system. Furthermore, majority vote =/= the truth. If there are 100 marbles in a jar, you say there are 100 marbles in the jar, But all of my friends and I say there are only 99 marbles in the jar, you're still correct.

.
.
.
.

So far, I have yet to see anything that can't be fixed with simple balancing, keeping in mind that not everyone from the free-form crowd will use this system. What i'd like to hear from you are specifics, not just the outcomes.

1x1 Combat (D&D Style)

Alright, that was a nice light post, so I decided to read it. No flipping out and accusing me of flaming because of how I choose to phrase questions, M'kay?

Ultimately, for the exact reason I described above -- relying on dice rolls actually causes people to have to write their characters incredibly out of character at times to cater to failures that the character simply wouldn't do. There's also a severe limitation placed on realism, as I've mentioned several times in this thread now and [ImportantNobody] just reaffirmed in his post.

@Shoryu Magami

While I understand this is your experience, it isn't my reality. Okay, so I have a totally badass ranger who never misses his shots. I roll a 1 and am forced to miss a shot. But I don't have to write the miss like my character actually has horrible accuracy. why can't I just have my opponent stumble and fall out of the way? Maybe my rolling a 1 isn't my character missing, but their character evading. And realism? Sorry buddy, even the best shooters are prone to miss. Especially when you consider stuff like moving targets, wind, debris, etc.

With enough creativity, it just doesn't seem like an issue.

I also feel that using dice would remove all the fluff that nobody really enjoys reading, like the three or four paragraphs about the angle of the sword swing that's suppose to ensure a clean hit. That's not necessary when the dice are in charge.

That being said, I could see the partial system working under circumstances where it's appropriate, but as I've explained a few times now the characters can get to a point where they're so far beyond luck that even using dice rolls in the background is unrealistic. That's why I agreed with the GM for choosing a very low tier setting for this thread's role-play.

@Shoryu Magami

I don't really understand what you're saying here. What is "beyond luck"? What is "a low-teir setting"? Am I to assume that being beyond luck is being in a situation where there's only one outcome? Is low-tier like low powers/realistic? This sounds like one of those points that we might just have to agree to disagree on.

1x1 Combat (D&D Style)

@ImportantNobody I think a partial system like what you're mentioning would be the most accessible to everyone. Though if you're both non-competitive and don't care who wins, why not let the dice decide everything? It could build excitement, as nobody knows who's going to win.

The Mysteries of Awilix (A Planetary, Magic RP)

Just posted as one character. Will work on a Cerridwen post later but this will keep some aspects rolling a bit. :)

@NuttsnBolts

Yea... I'm kinda doing the same thing.

Also, NPC time!

Borr Larsson

_{» C A T E G O R Y}

Construction Overseer ● Analytic View

_{» D E S C R I P T I O N}

A handsome swede. It's said that there are only three things you need to know about him. First is that he is the overseer of construction in the city limits. Second is that he takes his job very seriously. The last one is that he has a legendary temper and is known to get in your face like a drill sergeant. He does have a bit more depth than that of course. He does actually value the well being of his workers, it's just easy for him to fly off the handle with strict deadlines to meet, workers to motivate, and fires to stomp out.

Borr's Analytic View ability lets him look at an object and locate structural weaknesses, find faults in wires, and tell if a woman is pregnant or fat. Not that he uses it much for that last one.

The Mysteries of Awilix (A Planetary, Magic RP)

Keefer was working in the business district today. He had been helping build an office complex for a while now. The interior was complete enough that they could start putting windows in. At the same time, the exterior paneling would be put up by a different squad of carpenters. The carpentry profession hadn't changed much over the years. It was still largely people in hard hats with tool belts constructing something. The tools they used had come along way, but the job itself was more or less the same.

“Windows Jobe!” Keefer called out to his co-worker. “We're almost done now!” The windows were always an exiting step for Keefer, as it was usually his last job before a building was complete.

“Yea... Windows... Done...” Jobe was an unenthusiastic, slow, fat, slob, to be perfectly blunt. However, Keefer found Jobe's laid back nature made him easy to deal with. He wasn't a fast worker, but he did keep a level head in most situations. You could joke with him all day and never offend him. Jobe was holding a large window in place while Keefer calked around it. The caulk gun hummed as the motor pressed the adhesive into the window seam.

“You know back in the day, we'd need to nail this guy in after we glued it? Even wait for it to dry?” Keefer pulled his finger off the trigger and turned to his companion.

“Yea... Nail... Wait... Dry...”

“Haha!” Keefer slapped Jobe on the back. “I'm done. We just need to go do the next few floors now.”

Keefer was a bit more eager to get to the next floor than his companion was. By the time Keefer got to the staircase, Jobe had just finished turning around to walk away from the window. He would make it to the next floor in his own time. However, that didn't mean that '”this” carpenter had to wait for him.

The next floor was coming along nicely. There were two workers here already who had installed all the windows already. Well, most of them. One of the window pains laid on the ground in pieces. The two workers had already started shouting at each other.

“That's the third one!” The taller of the two shouted. He was alsow wider, and probably hit the gym on a daily basis. “I can't believe someone thought you'd actually be beneficial to the survival effort. I be you could fuck up a cup of coffee!”

The second man, smaller and scrawnier, was trembling. Not out of fear, but hatred. “Aren't you the one that glued his glove into the window seam? We'd be done already if you didn't screw that up!”

“You've got some nerve...”

This was bad. Someone was going to get hurt if the situation kept escalating. Keefer approached the disgruntled workers. He took a calming breath with each step.

“Guys.” Keefer lifted his hands up in the air. “ I realize we're all really exited to be-”

“Who the fuck are you?” The larger man baled his hands into fists.

The smaller man tipped his head let and right as he spoke.“Fuck fuck fuck, Is that the extent of your vocabulary? Maybe you should have stayed in school!”

“You want to fight?” The larger man's fists pulsed with energy. They were glowing cherry red, like heated metal.

“No, I want to kick your ass!” The shards of glass that were on the ground were listed into the air. They spun around the small man like electrons hovering around an atom. The two workers locked eyes with each other, both glowing gold with the power of their Lunos. But that glow didn't last forever. The gold in their eyes flickered and went out along with their powers. The larger man's arm's cooled and the glass fell back to the ground. There was also a sound, something akin to static. But they heard it with their minds instead of their ears.

“Enough!” Keefer's shout took both men by surprise. While both of them were without their powers, this man was still able to use his lunos. “Do the two of you have any idea how petty you sound?” Keefer was too annoyed to look directly at them. A sideways glance was all he offered for eye contact. Keefer pointed at the taller man “You are swearing your head off like a school bully, and YOU!” Keefer swung his hand over to the other. “...Are no better for trying to escalate the situation.” His hand fell to his side. “You're aware we are the only ones left, right? There's no earth anymore.” The glow in Keefer's eyes went out, and the noise in everyone's head went away. “There were only so many spots open on the Noah, and everyone who stayed behind sacrificed themselves for us passengers. Do you think they'd be happy if they were looking down on you two right now!?” Keefer's voice cracked at the end. It was hard for either of the men to stay mad after that. “Alright.” Keefer said with a sigh. “Do you guys need any help with this window?”

“N-no, we got it!”

“Yea, It's alright. I think we can adjust for our height differences now.”

Keefer nodded and turned away from the other carpenters. He slid his hand over his chest to feel his heart's pulse. Damn, even using dead cell for that short period of time had his heart rate up. It was hardly a health concern, but it took so long for it to return to normal. Keefer started to take deep, cleansing breaths in an attempt to calm down. In, and out. In, and out.

“The hell is going on here!?”

That voice did not belong to the other workers. Keefer turned around to meet his boss, Borr Larsson, face to face. There were only three things you needed to know about this man. First was that he was the overseer of construction in the city limits. Second was that he took his job very seriously. The last one was that he had a legendary temper and was known to get in your face like a drill sergeant.

“H-hello sir!” Keefer swallowed.

“You...” Borr pointed at Keefer with the claw of his hammer. “Did you activate your Lunos, effectively aborting my analytic view of the building?” Borr's ability was that he could look at an object with a sort of x-ray vision. He couldn't really “see” through things, but he could locate structural weaknesses, find faults in wires, and tell if a woman was pregnant or fat.

“They started it...”

Borr pulled back his arm and almost threw the hammer out a window, but instead slid it into his tool belt. He was visibly angry, and it took him a lot of effort to refrain from violence. “They were fighting again?”

“It was going to be a fight, yes. B-but you shouldn't blame them.”

“...If I'm going to blame anyone for anything, it's going to be YOU Keefer!” He threw his hands into the air. “Yea, it would be really bad if someone got hurt on the job, but not everyone can be as even keeled as Keefer and Jobe. Not every fight ends with a fatality, in fact, few ever do. Maybe the fighting would stop if someone got punched out.”

Keefer folded his arms. “You don't mean that.”

“I don't.” He placed a hand on his head. “I thought the range on that 'dead cell' of yours was pretty low.”

“You must have been standing directly above me.”

“Then it won't happen again?” Keefer didn't say anything. Borr groaned. “Alright, you're forgiven. Get those windows up so that we can move onto the next project.”

No more words were exchanged, the two men departed.