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24 days ago
Current You'd think after like 15 years I'd stop feeling like a fraud when writing posts but I still do which is both a statement on my self confidence and a compliment to how good my partners are as writers
15 likes
5 mos ago
Why are you talking about Final Fantasy 10 like that
5 mos ago
Final Fantasy 13 is a top five entry in the franchise but ya'll still ain't ready to have that conversation
6 mos ago
This Bears/Packers game is gonna make me believe in the power of Chicago Pope
2 likes
6 mos ago
The older I get the more I start to think BBQ potato chips are the worst flavor, actually.
3 likes

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Look, I got lost on the way to getting some jajangmyeon and it'd be foolish to leave now.

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@Fabricant451

Although I don't think that Bill's actions ever infringed on Beatrice's ability to make choices of her own volition, save for the moment when he tried to have her killed, I can see where the line's being drawn. What I don't understand is how this correlates with the tone and additional themes to construct an effective dialogue on feminism, whether it be in support, descriptive, what-have-you.

The story was never about Beatrice regaining or emphasizing her independence, it revolved around protecting her daughter. Bill's jealous attempt on her life does not make him an appropriate analogue for reasonable feminist issues. It makes him an abusive ex, a person who seeks control not because he wants to manipulate women, but because he's a vindictive douche that wants to validate his own emotions. Of course, he's shown to be in the wrong, simply because his reason for revenge was unjust.

Gender does not play a major role in the plot of Kill-Bill. The only possible thing you could relate to Tarentino's reason for making the main character a woman, is the motivation of her wanting to rescue her child. Remove the child, and suddenly everyone in the movie is a vindictive douche with shitty motivations. Suddenly, the main character is an absolute fucking moron and has no reasonable motivation to go around murdering her former colleagues. That child is the key to why Kill Bill isn't a completely stupid movie.


The story was absolutely about Beatrix regaining her independence, it was one of the main beats of the movie. That's the entire subtext of the revenge. She will literally never be free until she kills the Deadly Vipers - Bill was still sending Elle Driver to kill Beatrix in a coma until the code of honor had him change his heart. Her motivation has nothing to do with her child. She doesn't even know her child is alive until the end. Her entire motivation is revenge and the freedom and independence that will bring her. So long as Bill and the Vipers are alive she'll never truly be free. It's arguable that it's a hollow belief given that two of them have all but retired from the life (and yet both of them still attempt to kill her) but it's the driving force of the entire movie. Yes, it's a revenge movie, but that doesn't mean that's the only interpretation.

The fact that Beatrix made the choice to leave the assassin's life behind by means of faking her death only to have Bill track her down, deem her fiance a jerk, then kill them out of a warped idea of love and sick jealousy shows that she wouldn't be free to actually live her life and make choices like getting married again until Bill was out of the picture. Even when she goes on to meet Bill in part two, his justification is less an explanation and more an attempt at manipulation how he did it out of love and heartbreak and how killing her fiance and attempting to kill her was just an overreaction.

How this whole arc of the powerful male figure holding the woman back to the point where she has to take unexpected, often drastic, measures to better her life doesn't count as feminist is baffling. That's literally been a core of feminist film theory for decades. There's no obvious "THIS IS A BLATANT ALLEGORY FOR THE WAY WOMEN ARE SEEN IN SOCIETY" because that's not the kind of movie it is, it's a revenge movie that is an homage to martial arts movies with a side of feminist themes as garnish. A movie doesn't have to specifically be or say something about feminism to be a feminist movie - hence why I said 'A feminist film is not the same thing as a film about feminism.' Kill Bill, by accident or otherwise, is a feminist film.

But considering that the main character has been independent from the starting line, and there isn't any focus there, I don't think it garners attention or acts as an defining theme.


Beatrix is so not independent that Bill, the target of her revenge, literally tracks her down to murder her, her fiance, and her unborn child out of a fit of jealous rage that she loved another person.

Movies that put feminist themes front and center, and use them in conjunction with the narrative, tone, etc. to construct a dialogue on feminism, or society's reaction to feminism. From there, it's an argument of how one defines 'feminist themes'.


I'm curious what falls under the umbrella of a feminist movie in your opinion. Like specific examples.
Well I do enjoy THe Old Republic. The era and the game
Not to stoke the flames but Tarantino might not be an out and out feminist director (and given the wake of the whole Weinstein thing his methods are kinda...questionable at best) but several of his movies have clear feminist and female empowering themes and that goes as far back to Jackie Brown and even post Kill Bill with Death Proof and the A plot of Inglorious Basterds. To deny Kill Bill as having feminist themes is like denying I Spit On Your Grave because the lead character gets raped.

Women seeking independence and a break from typical norms is as much part of feminist film as revenge or violence. As far back as La Souriante Madame Beudet, a short film where a woman plots to have her husband kill himself, women seeking revenge on the men/women who have slighted them has been part of feminist film. Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore is a feminist film just as much as Thelma and Louise. A feminist film is not the same thing as a film about feminism.

The argument can and still is made that typical 'female is wronged, seeks revenge' isn't a feminist film because it's not in line with feminist values and at that point it's like fighting over calling it a shovel or a spade.

Feminist movies don't just mean "the main character is a woman" otherwise every romcom is a feminist movie. Ghostbusters 2016 was only a 'feminist movie' because the filmmakers rode that train hard to their detriment, the movie itself wasn't dealing with overtly feminist themes and the reason people in the movie didn't take the characters seriously wasn't because of their gender. Just as an example.
<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

Yeah, but is it a bad feminist movie?


Depends on who you ask. The answer is no, but some would say yes because...you know...it's British.
I could be down with this
Never watched Suffragette so I can't comment on that.


Trust me, it's a feminist movie.
Suffragette
<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

YMS doesn't have any charm at all.


I mean, if you want your film critic to be smug douche that prefers festival films and you're not attending film school then YMS is probably dripping with charm.

You right tho.
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