Letter Bee

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

@Lady Lascivious, @Pagemaster, @Richard Horthy, @Wernher:

I'm sorry for mistrusting you guys and assuming the worst about you, while at the same time, I was presuming that you assumed the worst about me. I am also sorry if I gave the impression that this was a low-plausibility Nation Roleplay when I never intended for that and genuinely thought that my own Point of Divergence worked. Please forgive me for my tone, phrasing, and rudeness, as well as the unintentional double standard set by the RP and Nation premise.

I ask for your forgiveness, as well as to listen to me when I say that I never intended to godmode or turn Egypt into anything more than a regional power in this universe.

Either way, I'll be trying for either a more plausible PoD in the future or an outright fantasy or sci-fi premise, assuming that this RP really is low-plausibility...

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

Okay, that last part was unwarranted. I am issuing a pre-emptive apology for my phrasing and the unnecessary rudeness and toxicity. I am sorry for going too far while defending myself from the accusations set before me.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

@Letter Beeokie dokie.

@Pagemaster

And while we're at it, Muhammad Ali of Egypt was a real person, not an original character, and he did embark on a modernization program for Egypt before his IRL misfortunes in 1840.

Edit: I deleted this second set of lines because it was not called for at all.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

@Letter Bee, I honestly think a Japanese female peasant is more realistic than Britain just going “Sure Egypt, you can have this insanely vital trade route, go crazy! No way this could possibly go wrong!”

Also, Egypt with ships of the line? Please. That’s like giving Brasil battleships in Second World War.

Nothing against Egypt being a thing, but it wouldn’t be a decent power, barely even a regional one.

@Pagemaster

Except that Britain didn't give Egypt the Suez in this timeline. It was the reverse, Egypt gave Britain the Suez, to build a canal with, and that's why Britain made concessions to it.

And Egypt had Ships of the Line IRL before 1840. See the Battle of Navarino, where Egypt got its Ships of the Line destroyed, but then managed to replace them in the years afterward.

And Egypt is just barely a regional power - I didn't contradict that.

I edited this post to add clarifications, btw.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

@Lady Lasciviousagreed, a desire to make Egypt powerful. Perhaps if there is some rework allowed, it would be good. I’m willing to play 1840’s Britain, but she’s going to be far more powerful than historical Britain since the British theory was they would always be more powerful than the next two navies combined.

@Pagemaster

Which is okay. I am not opposing that. And Egypt is not a world power even here. It is not even as powerful as 1847 Ottomans, just better off than IRL.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

@Pagemaster
Precisely. I figured we'd set the bar pretty low already, thus my version of Japan here would slot in just fine. Ultimately, I think there are some double standards at play here.

@Lady Lascivious

Please don't accuse me of pursuing a double standard to benefit myself. I genuinely thought that my take on Muhammad Ali's Egypt was perfectly plausible, more plausible than a female peasant leader taking over Japan with no support from the elites or the Emperor using his moral authority against her and modernizing the country. If it isn't, I apologize, but I already brought forth evidence that my alternate history was at least at the outer edges of plausibility.

Nevertheless, if the premise of the RP is irreparably implausible and proven to be so, then I will drop my argument. As it is, however, I already gave you my counterargument and it hasn't been disproved yet.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

@Letter Beeyes

@Pagemaster

If you mean to say 'Yes, it's the Suez Canal concessions', I can edit the game premise and the history to something more plausible.

If you meant to say 'Yes, my rudeness was necessary', then let me ask a simple question: Why? Are the standards of courtesy in the NRP section really that low?

And yes, I was rude myself. I at least had the reason that I was not sure if my objections, to Lady Lacivious' history, were going to be accepted at all or just ignored/batted away. That is not an excuse, but one can see why I'd think that, right?

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

<Snipped quote by Lady Lascivious>

Also saw this bit, and yea, would never happen. Worth to much money.

@Pagemaster

Are you referring to the Suez Canal concession?

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

Do my eyes deceive me, or does this roleplay require an active British player?

Disregard, I see Egypt somehow got a powerful fleet and thinks its a world power. I'm out.

@Pagemaster

Did you really need to be rude? And it's not that powerful a fleet compared to the British of that time.

From Sick Man to Savior - An 1847 Nation Roleplay

A thing I forgot to mention is Russia gained the warm water port of Nagasaki in exchange for their military aid. It was not out of the kindness of their hearts, but access to not only a warm water port - but a very well positioned one at that, enabling power projection of the Russian empire into the south pacific.

However, I think the standards of plausibility are nevertheless being applied very unevenly in this, with regard to the central premise of the British Empire voluntarily ceding control of Egypt, the Levant, and a Suez Canal. Not to mention the liklihood of revolt by the traditionalists and conservatives within egypt that would have been furious with Ali for ceding what he did. He would be lucky to retain the support of his army and thus retaining his throne.

Yes, my alt is certainly unlikely. But more unlikely than the British voluntarily handing over all of that to Egypt, and Egypt not suffering massive internal strife as a result of Ali's concessions? I somewhat doubt it.

@Lady Lascivious

Except that Muhammad Ali already controlled Egypt and the Levant and the southeasternmost parts of Anatolia around 1840 - It lost the Levant and that part of Anatolia and ceded them back to the Ottoman Empire due to Britain destroying his fleet, which included the entire Ottoman Navy, which had defected to him IRL, in his harbors. In this alternate history, Muhammad Ali averted that bombardment and was allowed to keep his conquests by giving the British the right to build the Suez Canal.

While there would have been traditionalist/conservative discontent afterward, the fact that those concessions were made when European Guns were staring him in the face allows for blame to be shifted away from him and his policies.

Edit: And I see the Russians got Nagasaki. That makes more sense.