Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[pugbutter]

Complaining that Andromeda is pro black and pro gay and hires progressives

@Dynamo Frokane

Literally no one in this thread has done this, nor insinuated that they share in that sentiment. Are you arguing with your own strawmen from the OP?

You clearly have me confused with someone else, you put no hiders in the post you tagged me in, double check yourself bud.

@Dynamo Frokane

roleplayerguild.com/posts/4219335

[Fyre Unholy]

[Vilageidiotx]

o fuc, is this bitchfest now?

i think bitchfest is back!

[Fabricant451]

And no, I don't draw an arbitrary line between the first three games and Andromeda. BioWare's descent has been slow and gradual, because swallowing the "SJWs buy games so we should cater to them instead of our core audience" meme didn't happen all at once.

@pugbutter

BioWare was a niche developer for most of their time until EA took them in. Their core audience was DnD and CRPG people which is a dwindling market. KOTOR was their first real title that put them on more radars because it hit at a time when Star Wars was in the public eye (for the wrong reasons). Jade Empire didn't exactly set the world on fire and it was Mass Effect that brought them out of the niche. BioWare's core audience shifted from the Dnd/CRPG crowd to literally fuckin everyone right around the time Mass Effect 2 came out and stripped everything down to generic shooter with ammo and arenas. Dragon Age Origins was their return to their niche and that even had gay characters in it as well as bisexuals.

Their whole representation thing didn't suddenly happen and it was never a pandering thing. Sky and Silk Fox from Jade Empire are bisexual. It was only their recent games that included strictly gay or lesbian romance options with actual preferences like a person might have. Sera is a lesbian and not really into elves but loves qunari. Dorian's entire character is how fabulously gay he is. And both of these characters came after Steve "Hey I'm gay" Cortez and Samantha "I wanna fuck EDI's voice" Traynor. You could make an argument that Cortez is pandering but it's less pandering and more BioWare didn't know how to write a gay person without having him say "I'm gay".

BioWare having queer characters in their games isn't pandering to the SJW crowd no matter what the internet machine says. This is the same machine that claimed having a black dude and a woman in Star Wars was pandering. People that don't like BioWare or who can't let go of Mass Effect 3/Dragon Age 2 like to scream about BioWare and it's the current climate of internet commentary that turns criticism of their choices and designs into shit slinging shout matches of "CUCKWARE PANDERING TO THE SJWS THEY HATE WHITE PEOPLE REEEEEEE." It absolutely IS a meme when people say "BioWare caters to SJWs". Because they don't. Even in Andromeda the lesbian and gay character are characters before sexuality. Suvi isn't just "I'm the lesbian" and Renley Baratheon isn't just "I'm the gay man" and in both cases you'd have to flirt with them as the opposite gender to even find that out. It's okay for there to be lesbians and gays and trans characters in video games. But they need to be characters first. That's the difference.

There are problems with Andromeda as a video game. They don't have to do with its representation. Other than Hainley. Because what the fuck.

[Dolerman]

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>
Literally no one in this thread has done this, nor insinuated that they share in that sentiment. Are you arguing with your own strawmen from the OP?

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

roleplayerguild.com/posts/4219335

@pugbutter

You may find this hard to believe but the internet is a lot bigger than this thread.

Thanks for finally linking me to the post, you didn't tag me in it.

Now reading the post I'm damn near convinced you don't know what incontrovertible evidence means.

All youve done is assert that Andromeda is poorly designed ( which in some ways it is). And blamed that on purple-haired hippopotamuses who supposedly work there. Its not much of an argument but it doesnt even hold up on its own merits because you havent identified if Bioware has hired these people before and EVERY GAME has been messed up because of it.

Are you saying that every Bioware game is as bad Mass Effect Andromeda, and if you arent saying that, can you please point to where they started hiring your purple hair hippo people and the quality began to suffer, some real evidence would be nice this time.

[Dolerman]

@Fyre Unholy

The left is literally the sole reason why this crusty old fool is allowed to date white women. He should show some goddamn gratitude.

[Dolerman]

You could make an argument that Cortez is pandering but it's less pandering and more BioWare didn't know how to write a gay person without having him say "I'm gay".

@Fabricant451

Hey, I liked Steve.

[Fabricant451]

Are you saying that every Bioware game is as bad Mass Effect Andromeda, and if you arent saying that, can you please point to where they started hiring your purple hair hippo people and the quality began to suffer, some real evidence would be nice this time.

@Dynamo Frokane

This is basically the second coming of Jennifer Hepler from the Dragon Age 2 days. Only now instead of a woman who was not attractive and thus had no business making games it's purple haired hippos plucked from Tumblr.

[Dolerman]

<Snipped quote by Dynamo Frokane>

This is basically the second coming of Jennifer Hepler from the Dragon Age 2 days. Only now instead of a woman who was not attractive and thus had no business making games it's purple haired hippos plucked from Tumblr.

@Fabricant451

And when they ARE attractive they equally have no place making games.

There is no pleasing them

[Iuniper]

If anyone's actually interested in how Bioware creates romances and characters of different sexualities, this is a neat panel to listen to. It's pretty interesting and explains 'playersexuality' in some of the Bioware games and how they try to balance player options while still being true to the characters. While some people would argue otherwise, the romance system is not central to the successes of Bioware titles, but it is still quite important.

[ZB1996]

This sure has blown up since the last time I looked at. So we have a full three pages (I think) of some right-winger who would fit better on reddit, a delightful pun involving the words fallacy and fellate, and the usual argumentative go-around I see whenever rude right-wing internet tough guys are involved. I don't have any business talking in depth about Bioware. I've played Jade Empire, Dragon Age: Origins, and Mass Effect 2, and they were all plenty gay. If you complain that a character is bad because they are defined by their sexuality, race, or gender, you'd be right, and I'm sure you'd find plenty of liberal critics who would agree with you. If, on the other hand, you're complaining about a fact that like a character like Tracer is a lesbian, I don't think we can say anything in favor of your argument. One thing I am certain of is that no one here will change their opinion, as that is against the rules.

Also, Thomas Sowell, like usual, is wrong. Western Europe is better-run than the United States.

Hopefully, on the off-chance we run into each other in a roleplay, we can still stand to be around each other. If not, God help us.

[Dion]

no thread about lgbt in gaming can be complete if i dont put in my two cents

here goes

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

DONT HIRE COSPLAYING WOMEN TO BE LEAD ANIMATORS IF THEY HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH MAKING VIDEOGAMES
DONT HIRE DEVELOPERS THAT TWEET ABOUT HATING WHITE PEOPLE
DONT BE A DICK IN GENERAL

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

The integration of LGBT people in Mass Effect Andromeda is laughable at best. My critique has nothing to do with their presence and everything to do with how poorly they were written in, which was lazily done and hinted purely at virtue signalling which I disagree with on principle.

Also Pugbutter made very good points and you guys seemed to ignore them on purpose but you guys all made good points too

there



hmmmm, actually, might be unexperienced or just a liar.... you decide

[DepressedSoviet]

As RPG's Communist Representative I will have it be known: I, nor any members of my political ideology, condone or refute the opinions expressed in this thread.

[Dinh AaronMk]

As RPG's Communist Representative I will have it be known: I, nor any members of my political ideology, condone or refute the opinions expressed in this thread.

@DepressedSoviet

Liquidation of the bourgiese and worker's councils in the gaming industry will fix all problems, including those bitched about in this thread.

[Vilageidiotx]

<Snipped quote by Fyre Unholy>

The left is literally the sole reason why this crusty old fool is allowed to date white women. He should show some goddamn gratitude.

@Dynamo Frokane

The left is such a broad thing that the quote can be dismissed off hand.

As RPG's Communist Representative I will have it be known: I, nor any members of my political ideology, condone or refute the opinions expressed in this thread.

@DepressedSoviet

I just love how this is the thread is so aggressive, when the political articles thread is so chill. Honestly, I think if them darned ess jay dubyoos had stayed with safe spaces and genders fluidity, the internet would never have thought twice about them. But the moment that gay people started popping up in video games, a line was crossed. The final solution of the twenty first century will be a virtual one, with fictional characters being ethnically and sexually purified.

[Dinh AaronMk]

I just love how this is the thread is so aggressive, when the political articles thread is so chill. Honestly, I think if them darned ess jay dubyoos had stayed with safe spaces and genders fluidity, the internet would never have thought twice about them. But the moment that gay people started popping up in video games, a line was crossed. The final solution of the twenty first century will be a virtual one, with fictional characters being ethnically and sexually purified.

@Vilageidiotx

I honestly believed at this point that even the people that bitch about safe spaces are having their own safe spaces being infiltrated by things they don't like. Or this whole bullshit affair is just a projection of group A being mad group B dares exist in their media while the same group is mad group C is there and wants representation like them.

They just need to realize they're equally bullshit and we need to chill out and realize we live on the same planet orbiting the same star. If you're mad LGBT people are in video games, I'd hate to see you in real-life.

[Dion]

@Vilageidiotx I'll start by cleansing Overwatch. Tracer may be fast but she can't hide from my gorilla-kin character forever. The real question is, what will be our 'Kristallnacht' equivalent.

[Dolerman]

I've played Jade Empire, Dragon Age: Origins, and Mass Effect 2, and they were all plenty gay. If you complain that a character is bad because they are defined by their sexuality, race, or gender, you'd be right,

@ZB1996

Im sure this has been said before in the thread but Mass Effect 2 really isnt that gay. There are no gay romance options in ME2 unless you count a flirty kelly chambers doing a ridiculous striptease for both genders. As @Fabricant451 said, these are all characters way before their sexuality is introduced and the vast majority of them across these 3 games you've listed are straight.

However I agree with you on everything else for the most part.

no thread about lgbt in gaming can be complete if i dont put in my two cents

here goes

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

DONT HIRE COSPLAYING WOMEN TO BE LEAD ANIMATORS IF THEY HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH MAKING VIDEOGAMES
DONT HIRE DEVELOPERS THAT TWEET ABOUT HATING WHITE PEOPLE
DONT BE A DICK IN GENERAL

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

The integration of LGBT people in Mass Effect Andromeda is laughable at best. My critique has nothing to do with their presence and everything to do with how poorly they were written in, which was lazily done and hinted purely at virtue signalling which I disagree with on principle.

Also Pugbutter made very good points and you guys seemed to ignore them on purpose but you guys all made good points too

there



hmmmm, actually, might be unexperienced or just a liar.... you decide

@Buddha

So a few things.

1. Absolutely agree with you 100% Manveer Heir is a white hating wannabe edgelord prick and doesnt deserve a job at 'inclusive' bioware. I assume his twitter feed wasnt the reason they hired him though, and he doesnt work there anymore which is good. Fuck him. However he was only one of many Gameplay Developers and I dont know if hiring him 'made andromeda shit' as the combat and a lot of the gameplay was actually one of its strong points.

2.Cosplay woman probably lied or exaggerated her position on her twitter profile but the reactionary hate campaign was no answer for it. The real animators have spoke out and said a large reasone for some of the cut corners in animation was because of prioritising more plot relevant cut scenes over side quests, still no excuse though, I think Andromeda was dissapointing in its presentation.

3. I dont think LGBT implementation was 'laughable' in Andromeda, at least no more laughable than the straight characters, I think the game in general suffers from a cheesy script, but I know what pandering is, they havent made characters 'gay for the sake of being gay' at least not anymore than any other Mass Effect game.

4. pugbutter clearly isnt a stupid guy, but the way he came in this thread attempting to be this force of logic and condescending badassery definitely did stink of some Anti-SJW, Right Leaning Sub Reddit Angst where he seemed more concerned with witty put-downs than actual debate. You cant throw around claims that you have incontrovertible evidence and then make claims that Bioware hires 'purple haired hippos' and CD Projekt Red largely doesn't give a fuck about 'women and brown people' and that's why they are better at making games, and expect to be taken seriously. I dont agree with calling him a racist out of the gate, but he wasnt exactly dog-piled or anything.

Just as a side note I really dont know how we got talking about the left wing and commies, this thread is about Mass Effect.

[Dion]

@Dynamo Frokane 1. agree

2. eh, i mean, i'm not really aware of the hate she got. people probably did take it too far, but you know, i'm not really interested in hate campaigns nor am i passionate enough about ME:A (because I knew it'd be a shit game for my tastes) to go on a tangent to this woman, so I didn't follow it well enough to be able to tell.

3. AFAIK they used an algorithm to make most of the cutscenes facial animations, and then did manual 'touch up' by hand on the priority scenes (main story). That means there are some scenes that had a low priority that were probably never even touched by hand. That's what I read from an animators comments on this game, who worked on ME previously. It's a shitty way to animate a game that costs so much money and is a triple A title but hey, it's how it is.

4. nah he wasn't dogpiled, but there were certainly moments where I felt people ignored his arguments because they didn't have the answers to what he was saying. it's a common thing, it's natural. I think that, given the people involved in the game, it's likely that there was some reason for them hiring specific people (like Manveer, like the animation lady) but I don't really think I want to comment on that mostly because I don't care that much about who they hire, I care about the end product.

I'm not sure if the shitty end product (it's a decent game, but from a AAA title I'm not expecting decent but amazing) is a result of that hiring process or not, and I can't figure out how we can even test that, but I have my doubts that their team was the most efficient. Not sure why that would be though.

[Dolerman]

4. nah he wasn't dogpiled, but there were certainly moments where I felt people ignored his arguments because they didn't have the answers to what he was saying. it's a common thing, it's natural.

@Buddha

I think the calling him a racist/white supremacist was a good example of that, its just not helpful.

But conversely, he came in extremely condescending in a thread which was honestly really civil, he made some good points about lovecraft and horror but had laced every post with a smug disregard to not only the original post, but to anyone who liked anything about Bioware.

I never called him a racist or anything but some of his comments did seem to come from a place of 'games suck when you hire women or minorities' as if no one female or non white gets any job on merit and its single handedly killing the games industry. I'm also certain there are probably a lot of women and non whites at CD Prokect Red that he's glossing over. Its not quite JonTron levels of redpill, but it points in some dodgy directions.