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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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Etcetera Misty Skies

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<Snipped quote by Etcetera>

They can still exist even though they're not logical. The whole point of Code is that literally anything is possible somewhere.


Nothing can create an internal logical contradiction. No system imaginable can make 2+2=5 and leave every other axiom alone.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by The World
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<Snipped quote by The World>

Nothing can create an internal logical contradiction. No system imaginable can make 2+2=5 and leave every other axiom alone.


"Imaginable." They absolutely can, we just can't properly portray it.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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<Snipped quote by Etcetera>

"Imaginable." They absolutely can, we just can't properly portray it.


That doesn't make sense though. Our entire perception of reality relies on the fact that we accept logical derivations to be true. If we suddenly decide that they don't have to be, in this universe or in any other, we lose any ability to make sense of our own universe. As far as the world is concerned, if a conclusion isn't logical, it's false.

And while you could claim otherwise, if you remove logic's ability to determine definite truth, it's impossible to prove whether or not your own claim is true. It's unfalsifiable, which is a fallacy (which I suppose also wouldn't matter if logic is stripped of its power?).
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by DELETED jdl3932
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DELETED jdl3932 Sok Il-Seong / (Second Initiation)

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How do we know logic, like time, isn't just a construct our minds?
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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How do we know logic, like time, isn't just a construct our minds?


Because it's our only way to even perceive reality. You could claim logic to be false, but it undermines our entire ability to perceive, evaluate, or even interact with reality. You would have to accept the fabric of reality around you to be unrepresentative of the actual truth of the world (but even that conclusion relies on me taking the claim to its logical ends). Ultimately, you can deny anything you want, but if you don't choose to accept logic, whatever system is put in its place (or lack thereof) will have no predictive or analytic power to do anything, really. It's like if I had a computer and denied that ADDI R1, R0, 5 would place the number 5 in register 1. I can claim absolutely anything I want, but I can't accomplish anything that doesn't abide by logical rules.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by The World
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<Snipped quote by The World>

That doesn't make sense though. Our entire perception of reality relies on the fact that we accept logical derivations to be true. If we suddenly decide that they don't have to be, in this universe or in any other, we lose any ability to make sense of our own universe. As far as the world is concerned, if a conclusion isn't logical, it's false.

And while you could claim otherwise, if you remove logic's ability to determine definite truth, it's impossible to prove whether or not your own claim is true. It's unfalsifiable, which is a fallacy (which I suppose also wouldn't matter if logic is stripped of its power?).


"It's unfalsifiable, which is a fallacy (which I suppose also wouldn't matter if logic is stripped of its power?)."

Now you're getting it~

We're dealing with other universes, it's ALL unfalsifiable. Logic is just how our brains are wired to manage shit, and our brains are fucked. Just look at how our eyes work, our brains are bullshit.

For example, there's no way anyone is going to go to a universe exactly like ours except where gravity works in reverse, but that doesn't mean it can't exist in Existence.

Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by DELETED jdl3932
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Makes sense. Although there could still be beings other than us who transcend or don't conform to logic itself and therefore do not need it to exist or function.

Of course that's all just speculation. Still fun to think about though.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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<Snipped quote by Etcetera>

"It's unfalsifiable, which is a fallacy (which I suppose also wouldn't matter if logic is stripped of its power?)."

Now you're getting it~

We're dealing with other universes, it's ALL unfalsifiable. Logic is just how our brains are wired to manage shit, and our brains are fucked. Just look at how our eyes work, our brains are bullshit.

For example, there's no way anyone is going to go to a universe exactly like ours except where gravity works in reverse, but that doesn't mean it can't exist in Existence.


If you remove the foundation of logic, all claims become meaningless. I can claim that whatever you propose is false for the sake of it and there isn't anything that can falsify that. Logic is the only way to reach a conclusion, and you can't reach the conclusion that an illogical world can exist without the use of a logic-bound reasoning system, which forbids the former's existence.
There is no order without logic. Every idea becomes an isolated entity floating in the sea of nothingness, a place where I can just as easily destroy the notion of any other universe with the simple declaration that they don't exist, easily as you can create them.

Makes sense. Although there could still be beings other than us who transcend or don't conform to logic itself and therefore do not need it to exist or function.

Of course that's all just speculation. Still fun to think about though.


It is fun to think about. I think that when discussing logic, the conversational idea of what is "logical" (what makes sense to us given the facts we know) gets conflated with the definitional view of what is "logical" (what we can derive given a set of premises and axioms).
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by The World
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<Snipped quote by The World>

If you remove the foundation of logic, all claims become meaningless. I can claim that whatever you propose is false for the sake of it and there isn't anything that can falsify that. Logic is the only way to reach a conclusion, and you can't reach the conclusion that an illogical world can exist without the use of a logic-bound reasoning system, which forbids the former's existence.
There is no order without logic. Every idea becomes an isolated entity floating in the sea of nothingness, a place where I can just as easily destroy the notion of any other universe with the simple declaration that they don't exist, easily as you can create them.

<Snipped quote by ZAVAZggg>

It is fun to think about. I think that when discussing logic, the conversational idea of what is "logical" (what makes sense to us given the facts we know) gets conflated with the definitional view of what is "logical" (what we can derive given a set of premises and axioms).


Except I've got a logical foundation with Code for anything. A universe full of random states of Code still functions. Again, just because it exists doesn't mean it's worthwhile. If Tier Five went around destroying universes that don't make sense then that's fine and good but they aren't doing that anymore. It's highly unlikely that life would arise in a logically uncentered universe unless done by a deity, so...

There's also so many things we can't even think of that would make something logical that we wouldn't consider logical. I had another point but I forgot it. :/
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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<Snipped quote by Etcetera>

Except I've got a logical foundation with Code for anything. A universe full of random states of Code still functions. Again, just because it exists doesn't mean it's worthwhile. If Tier Five went around destroying universes that don't make sense then that's fine and good but they aren't doing that anymore. It's highly unlikely that life would arise in a logically uncentered universe unless done by a deity, so...

There's also so many things we can't even think of that would make something logical that we wouldn't consider logical. I had another point but I forgot it. :/


Random states of Code cannot violate logical principles in any case (though Code isn't the purpose of this discussion, since it's not about MR) because that would be able to allow a condition to arise where you're asserting something that doesn't make sense to be true. It's fine to say "this universe could not exist unless these 99.99999999999999999999% odds line up, but because of Code they do" but it's not fine to say "because of Code, we can have a statement that is true that is also false" because that kind of a statement cannot even be properly parsed. It's as intelligible as saying "the sky ate the color of four ocean grandmothers increasing halves." There's no universe where that condition can be true because the condition doesn't make sense.

I think what you're getting at here is a universe with a different set of axioms, which is absolutely fine. Any system can "exist" as long as it's self-consistent.
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<Snipped quote by The World>

Random states of Code cannot violate logical principles in any case (though Code isn't the purpose of this discussion, since it's not about MR) because that would be able to allow a condition to arise where you're asserting something that doesn't make sense to be true. It's fine to say "this universe could not exist unless these 99.99999999999999999999% odds line up, but because of Code they do" but it's not fine to say "because of Code, we can have a statement that is true that is also false" because that kind of a statement cannot even be properly parsed. It's as intelligible as saying "the sky ate the color of four ocean grandmothers increasing halves." There's no universe where that condition can be true because the condition doesn't make sense.

I think what you're getting at here is a universe with a different set of axioms, which is absolutely fine. Any system can "exist" as long as it's self-consistent.


Can I have a piece of your hair?
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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Can I have a piece of your hair?


Depends on how much cash you can pay. Follicles are extra.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by DELETED jdl3932
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DELETED jdl3932 Sok Il-Seong / (Second Initiation)

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And there goes the discussion.
*Watches it sail away*
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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Etcetera Misty Skies

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And there goes the discussion.
*Watches it sail away*


I'm as confused as you are. But that's how he and I are.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by DELETED jdl3932
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DELETED jdl3932 Sok Il-Seong / (Second Initiation)

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<Snipped quote by ZAVAZggg>

I'm as confused as you are. But that's how he and I are.


Okay....
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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Okay....


You're free to continue it if you'd like.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by DELETED jdl3932
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DELETED jdl3932 Sok Il-Seong / (Second Initiation)

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<Snipped quote by ZAVAZggg>

You're free to continue it if you'd like.


There's not much to continue, in regards to the discussion anyway. At least, not as far as I can see.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Etcetera
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There's not much to continue, in regards to the discussion anyway. At least, not as far as I can see.


There's a lot more to see than there was in the void, at least.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by DELETED jdl3932
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Indeed. You know, I was trapped in a void once....
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by The World
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And there goes the discussion.
*Watches it sail away*


I find that nothing else ends a discussion faster.

<Snipped quote by The World>

Depends on how much cash you can pay. Follicles are extra.


Like five cents even
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