SleepingSilence

The Political Thread

I have a feeling this will probably be the last time I reply on here, at least with this discussion in mind, because this isn't going anywhere. If there is something specific you wish to go into, we can have that chat on the other political thread instead...

It still applies, because not all aspects of the economy are as free as their international counterparts.

@catchamber

No, you don't seem to get it. You're addressing my point about the article being a failure to prove instants where a place is better by being outdated, but that was all you had when I asked my original question. You haven't provided any other examples, so it no longer applies...if there is a different aspects that proves otherwise, it has yet to be provided. I also don't agree that freedom even has to equate to 'has the best everything', so this entire line of argument won't likely go anywhere.

Advocating a philosophy that advocates for exploiting people will likely cause exploitation, making the idea as dangerous as its believers.

@catchamber

Capitalism doesn't do this. Also, 'believers' of capitalism are anyone who has ever been in a supermarket. I swear this line reads like something you could actually say about socialism or its counterparts and it would prove far more accurate...

Such is interdisciplinary debate.

@catchamber

Without actually clarifying, I honestly question if even you knew exactly what all that word salad was supposed to be saying...

"The aim should be to ensure all have the opportunity to succeed at optimizing their trades without reducing productivity across the board."

Which part of this doesn't make sense?

@catchamber

I've asked (several times now) for a real-world (or at this point, any) example of what you're talking about. Which I've yet to receive, and I don't take "lul, giving a shit" as an example of this ideal in practice.

A and/or B is better than A, B, A and B, or A or B, because you have more options. Which choice is useful in which condition depends on the context. In terms of economics, I think societies should be integrated but independent of each other. It's safer that way for individual societies and the ensemble.

@catchamber

Disregarding that there is two options presented, and the idea of their being more options is redundant. Because the two options are broad. So, are speaking about isolationism and globalism being 'useful in conditions and context'? Because that seems to be what is being answered, though specifically some of it had to do with free trading. If so, it's absurd to say "Sometimes, having no/next to no free trade will prove great for a nation's economy." It's a middle ground you're presenting that shouldn't even exist...

Analysis: Cop out.

Rebuttal: Can you quote the relevant section to prove your point?

@catchamber

I refuse to take anything said seriously, because of arguments like this. (I also kind-of refuse to believe you're actually that misinformed on such a thoroughly dismantled talking point...)

pigsandsheep.org/gun-rights-lesson-74…

The Political Thread

1. But objective and quantifiable values like fiscal debt and energy output are harder to dismiss.

2. You mean to say it applies less, assuming the TC&JA even produces a real GDP growth rate increase. However, GDP/capita and deficits/capita must be compared to assess the bigger picture, alongside other values like assets/capita. Deficits are real things that influence economic behavior, as people believe in their power. Like terrorism, they're used as excuses to strip one's rights. As far as I know, all 3 countries are experiencing deficit/capita growth and rights restrictions, for various reasons in various places at various times.

I could source all of my numbers, but you could also go through the trouble of calculating them like I did, as all the data is public.

@catchamber

I mean it doesn't apply. If something is more free because it has less tax that means it isn't more free if there was more tax. That was the base of the article.

Are you saying that national debt can be a major contribute to things like the creation of terrorism? I suppose I just don't see the connection between having debt and not having a free people as a nation. I'm sure there are people with less national debt than the United States but they are nowhere near as free as we are. That's not getting into wealth either, but a wealthy man in Canada has less freedom than a poor man in America because of poor man in America cannot get jailed for speech.

I don't know how much those numbers will particularly help with the foregone conclusion. At least as far as I'm concerned.

Was the productivity gained from the situation's memetic and neurochemical effects greater than the real value of the input? If so, maybe its effects last a long time (i.e. being widely known), but that can lead to less efficient mimicry. If not, then irrational agents acted inefficiently, and wealth disparity forms or wealth is lost. Now compound the disparities and losses from all similar activities, and consider that different, paradoxical, or contradicting views on what capitalism is can inflate such viral economic problems.

A broken window can create jobs but hurt total prosperity, just like taking all the money in the world and lighting it on fire.

@catchamber

"The situation's mimetic and neurochemical effects" I'm just going to assume that this is relating to people kick-starting potato salad, because that was a bit of a word salad...

Can I really blame autocracy/extremism/propaganda for an individual/group failure, when stuff like that can prove lucrative given the appropriate mindset? Yes, yes I can.

@catchamber

I don't think capitalism particularly relates to any of those three things you mentioned. Nor do I think those equate or even that similar.

Understanding others' views, as in everyone, not just consumers.

@catchamber

Do you need to understand everyone's views to make an effective product? What about a niche product where its success is exactly because it doesn't cater to the mainstream? Doesn't the market already do this fairly well? Cater to the consumer base, based on their varied needs.

It's called giving a shit.

@catchamber

Elaborate on the sentence in question. I don't think that has much with care or lack thereof.

A and/or B is better than A or B.

@catchamber

So - A or B is better than A or B...(I can only assume that was meant both is better than one?) Which one of those things would that be? Isolation or Free Trade?

God given right, you say? Can I have nuclear arms, because 2nd amendment? Or will you argue that societies have the right to defend themselves by denying rights, which can be deemed "collectivism > individualism"?

@catchamber

Short answer: Irrelevant Long answer: Read The Federalist Papers.

Let's reread our exchange:
You: "If you acknowledge the latter, what problem do you think a 'mixed-bag system' solution would be useful for?"
Me: "Many problems, because a full toolbelt is better than just a hammer."
You: "I guess I just kind of wish America would do the opposite. Because we're currently pushing to be like everyone else, when everyone else is pushing to be like us. Canada is getting more privatized healthcare. More countries are switching to market/capitalistic economies. I'd rather not have another Obamacare boondoogle."
Me: "This hybridizing is a consequence of globalization, which has proved dangerous in the past if: economies and states are too interdependent, or the applied policies are theoretically practical but not suited to the situation. By granting citizens the authority to choose transactions as they see fit, be they provided by market or state, the whole gets to pick from the best of every world."
You: "But my libertarian digression aside, I don't really understand the idea globalization being too blame for shitty things like Obamacare. I can think of many more examples of why that failed that don't involve anything outside of the United States..."

Are you saying Obamacare is a consequence of globalization or not? Getting mixed signals over here.

@catchamber

I do not believe that word is an accurate representation of why it is a failure. My comments were regarded to how the healthcare system is not a free-market system. And how it is a horrible hybrid of systems, Obamacare being my example. You said there are many things that could improve. Do you have any particular examples of this? Mixed market systems that are not capitalist systems that just happened to have some social elements. An actual mixed political economy?

What Are You Listening To?

A lot of Emery.

The Political Thread

Edit: In my morning stupor, I didn't notice the highlighted link words were three separate words. I can go into Australia, a bit later. But I stand by my general statement, that I doubt the results will be much different.

<Snipped quote by SleepingSilence>
Yes, the USA has economies of scale and the drive of being hyperpower to sustain its high GDP/capita (PPP). However, I believe these particular articles can better say how Australia and Canada can be less stifled than the USA.

Also, let's compare the 2017 deficits/capita of all 3 countries in US$:
Australia: $886
Canada: $871
US: $2,050

Not saying restricting free speech and defense rights is good, though. Those restrictions may ultimately harm the economy if maintained.

@catchamber

Okay, the first one talks about Canada and basically it touches on two points of contention.

1. Obamacare sucks. It has 100's of pages compared to Canada Health Act (Agreed.)

This doesn't make someone 'more free'. Because their system is still more restrictive. They're not even -open- on weekends. Their forced to wait for long periods of care, so much so they've been sued and have now tried changing their systems closer to ours.

forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2018/06/1…

thenelsondaily.com/news/canada’s-heal…

And even if I agree with the statement...Obamacare, isn't all we have.

2. The second is about the lower corporate tax rate. Stating it's 28% percent. It makes a pretty weak case for Canada in general and questions if he'll ruin what his father built. (ha ha.) This was -before- Trump's job act.

"Since January 1, 2018, the nominal corporate tax rate in the United States of America is a flat 21 percent due to the passage of the "Tax Cuts and Jobs Act" on December 20, 2017. State and local taxes and rules vary by jurisdiction, though many are based on federal concepts and definitions."

So, again even if I agreed...that no longer applies.

How does the deficit thing relate to freedom exactly? (Could you source where you found those numbers too?)

"If maintained" seems to be a pretty superfluous qualifier, honestly. Like it's ever going to change? It's actively getting worse in countries like Canada and the U.K.

It can be in the right conditions, but those should be avoided by understanding: others' views, and that tolerating the possibility of conflict isn't a good excuse to tolerate conflict happening.

It depends on the system and situation.

The aim should be to ensure all have the opportunity to succeed at optimizing their trades without reducing productivity across the board.

@catchamber

I'd love an further explanation on that, specifically saying that it can actually be the free-market that makes a bushiness fail 'under the right conditions/it depends on the situation' when I think that couldn't be any further from the truth. Under the free-market, the stupidest ideas of the individual can actually be produce results and have people invest their money. Just think of the most ridiculous examples...people kickstarted a guy who was making potato salad...

Are you really going to blame capitalism for an individual/groups failure when stuff like that can prove lucrative?

Understanding others views as in your typical consumer? We already do that, their focus groups and I certainly wouldn't make a case that those have lead to great things, if anything the stifle the niche product.

I think most business failures aren't because not enough people said "Yes" but because no one was around to say, "No, don't do that." Conflict and compromise is absolutely required in life and it's not at all always a negative result.

I'm also not quite sure what the last sentence leads to, or means in the broad context of what we we're discussing...can you provide an example of what you may be discussing, or what you're looking for?

This hybridizing is a consequence of globalization, which has proved dangerous in the past if: economies and states are too interdependent, or the applied policies are theoretically practical but not suited to the situation. By granting citizens the authority to choose transactions as they see fit, be they provided by market or state, the whole gets to pick from the best of every world.

@catchamber

I'm not quite sure what this statement is leading to or implying. The first part is stating globalization in America is causing our problems, which seems to have an Isolationist bent. But the second seems to be implying, people getting to choose products from all over the world would proof to be beneficial...which doesn't seem supportive of the former statement.

While I can agree in one case that people should be able to choose where they go for care. Getting experimental drugs not in your country, that aren't by all definitions legal there. It's -your- life. But I feel the idea the government "grants" that, is a backwards thought that can get you into a mess.

The government shouldn't be the one granting you rights. The Constitution wasn't the government granting us the ability to speak our minds, with the knowledge they can strip it away if they so decide. It was a 'god given' right, that they understood the government shouldn't meddle with. That applies to many things, and frankly is the strongest argument against most socially conservative types that want to use government law to restrict freedoms. Give the government the ability to choose what drugs you can or cannot have, it doesn't matter you correct you are, you just rolled the dice and your fate is no longer in the individuals hand. If weed could magically cure cancer, (it can't), but if it did. Too bad, Bob Thorpinstein says you can't have it.

But my libertarian digression aside, I don't really understand the idea globalization being too blame for shitty things like Obamacare. I can think of many more examples of why that failed that don't involve anything outside of the United States...

What Are You Listening To?

Printed guns, melded metal - An experimental GM-less Cyberpunk RP

@The Harbinger of Ferocity @Terminal I'm not anywhere in particular, but I'm nearby and approaching the area where the firefight is currently taking place. So you can make note of seeing me or not, if you want. Obviously, if I'm caught out of position, she didn't go a very good job staying out of trouble. ;P

Printed guns, melded metal - An experimental GM-less Cyberpunk RP

Scarlett’s preceding hours at The Fortress required a steel wire brush to scrub the disgust from deep within her bones; preferably, starting with the ones in her mouth. Hadn’t she learned opening up like curtains from a window, only left her exposed and prone to being caught in the moment? Desperate eyes locked upon the master’s baiting pitch, she was practically running outside for the reward of retrieval. The velocity of the motorcycle matched her speeding train of thought, still restrained from separating herself from the tracks laid before her.

On the busy nighttime streets, forced to ride pillion with - how’d they describe themselves again? ‘A gentleman of diminutive stature’, which during the trip, the lone thing more staggering than knowledge that the individual behind the pedal wasn’t blind and utterly soused, was the bike itself. Why was she getting escorted by such a crappy motorist? Needing to unconsciously clutch their shoulders several times to keep herself from rocketing off into oncoming traffic. Her fingers felt greasy gripping the unwashed biker jacket. Receiving an unexpected deviation from the familiarity; like finding a needle while combing inside a haystack, you’re met with an unpleasant prick in your hands. At least they were wearing their helmets...she almost felt obliged to drop to her hands and knees to kiss the concrete after being dropped off.

---

The loud buzz prompted her to step through the entrance, immediately feeling an unnerving sense of nostalgia, even if it was partially aided by the lingering cigar smell on her fur. She slowly ascended the old apartments’ staircase, the single distinctive sound was coming from the creaking of the many wooden steps. She passively glanced at the cracked mirror hanging up on the wall between the second and third set of stairs. Stopping to touch her neck, realizing in haste she’d kept the collar on. Not wishing to dwell on how accustomed she’d gotten to it, Scarlett hurried up to the requested room number. Not making her search any easier when they weren’t in discernible numerical order, finally arriving at door 15. It suddenly swung wide open, causing a split-second reaction to whip out the Beretta from its holster, aimed squarely at his pointed goat beard connected to a toothy grin. He leaned forward, giving her full view of his pentagram tattoo, using the muzzle as a headrest.

“Please - feel free. Would make my day much less stressful.” He taunted with a glazed stare. Her fingers seemed frozen and physically incapable of pulling the trigger. One of her implanted chips was overpowering her will, must have been another subordinate working with her boss.

“Should be upside down if you wanted to be subtle about it.” Her counter remained in the mind, eyes rolling underneath her headgear as she walked in. The man quietly shut the door, quieting the broken chain lock rattling in its sway. The place appeared remodeled, albeit poorly and it was hardly furnished and packed with stacks of large cardboard boxes, but that was nothing bizarre for fresh tenants. Spotting an opened nylon carry bag with an entire cyberware arm and a white plastic mask, lying in the middle of the carpeted floor. But recognizing two problems moments after looking around, they’re suppose to be here.

“Father’s in the closet, daughter’s in the bathroom.” He explained dismissively approaching behind her, sounding annoyed that he needed to reveal that information. She went over and peered in the empty closet, seeing the father rope-tied to a chair with a sack covering his head and without a right arm. Turning to the unfamiliar colleague zipping up the bag and carrying it under his arm, seemingly flexing his defined muscles at her. His back leaning against the wall beside the bathroom door, straight across from her.

“There’s enough space to fit them both in here. Why did you separate them?” She asked. He snorted and itched his nostrils.

“If one of them broke their restraints, I didn’t need them freeing each other.” He answered in a callous tone, quickly averting his attention. Soon as he stated his reasoning, they heard the churning pipes with the shower turning on. She charged into the bathroom, permitting him little time to move aside. The bathroom was a mess; sink was full of water mixed with red and the floor was slippery, in the tub was a blindfolded pre-adolescent girl sitting upright with arms tied behind her back and below a barely flowing shower-head. Though her top half was already drenched, shaking and breathing heavily, her cheeks flushed and blood dribbling from her nose.

Scarlett turned the water off and drained the sink, treating it like a formality. Dashing out of the bathroom upon hearing the rattling chain, as she caught the man halfway out of the apartment with his hand clenching the handle, the other still holding the bag. He seemed to sense the glare she was shooting him, just standing there with a sneering face.

"The bitch wouldn't stop screaming at me and I was getting sick of it. Just look out that window and wait for the signal, and be prepared to use those guns for something beside intimidation." He lazily pointed to the window, as she muttered something inaudibly through a slight growl. He chuckled and closed the door.

She merely waited by the window and waited for the vague notion of signal to happen, occasionally peeping through the blinders, only seeing the neon lights, the overpass and the unsuspecting crowd striding by…

There it was - sounds of firefight and the commotion from unfolding chaos. Checking for visual confirmation, recognizing the shoot-out was nearby. Her orders were established, simply get as much footage of the ensuing event as possible, her questions garnered her the explanation that if anyone else is looking for our target, they’d be present. She only needed to kill whoever she deemed a threat. This was a mission to obtain information and identities that could hint to potential leads. Before leaving the safety of the building and going into dangerous alley, a moment of hesitation came from the whimpering cries coming from the girl. She rushed for the door, but nearly swiveled around 180 degrees and gritted her teeth. Picking up the girl who had somehow loosened her blindfold, giving Scarlett a grief-stricken stare as she carried the pre-teen off in her arms toward the closet. Noticing her face briefly having a wave of relief seeing her father’s writhing body. Raising the rope restraints up to her jaw, she began chewing, grinding and pulling on them with her sharp fangs until they were loose enough to pull apart in due time, then gently setting her down near her father.

“Don’t go outside.” Scarlett warned, fleeing from the building’s entrance and running even closer to the sounds the gunfire with both of her guns drawn, scanning her surroundings like a hawk and using as much cover as the terrain provided. She didn’t anticipate to drop any bodies tonight, but she was equipped for worse situations, should they arise...

Printed guns, melded metal - An experimental GM-less Cyberpunk RP

One thing i'm still a bit confused though is technology & etc. Genetic manipulation seems to be pretty common, right? What about prosthetics& etc? Artificial organs, limbs...

@13org

The CS has a specific section for Cyberlimbs. You can certainly have prosthetic/limbs. If you have any confusion, just google 'cyberpunk 2020' equipment and you'll find what you need. It has implant air supplies that act like artificial lungs.

(I'll throw a few links your way, but there's others out there.)

ronin-tribal.com/piazza/Sheets/CP2020…

datafortress2020.com/ultrachrome.html

Printed guns, melded metal - An experimental GM-less Cyberpunk RP

@Terminal When my friend leaves for the weekend, I'll be reading and probably working on another post tonight. Don't let me hold you back. If I join the fight, or not.

@13org@BangoSkank How goes things? Guys need any help or suggestions?

---

Edit: Will be able to post something tomorrow.

The Political Thread

The massive amounts of prosperity generated by mixed economies worldwide. Many exceptions to this trend exist for various reasons, and the benefits of meshing depend on their application.

@catchamber

Well the chart for GDP, seems to be in favor of the United States. While the 'freedom' chart seems very sketchy and not substantiated. How is Canada, a place where you can go to jail for hate speech. Or Australia, who had to forcefully give their guns back to the government. Any more free than the US?

Collectivism fails when it puts the group above its members, because power is transferred from individuals to those given authority over the group. A cohesive group has members that act with their own and others' interests in mind, aka mutual prosperity.

@catchamber

Isn't disagreement and conflict inevitable with large groups of people? Can't exactly achieve a hive-mind. Also do you think most people would act with their own interests first, over others?

If the political system is responsible, yes.

@catchamber

That's what I was asking. Is it or nah?

Are you implying capitalism can sometimes be the reason companies fail?

Like it would imply under socialism or elsewhere, failed kickstarter disasters or farce solar panel projects would work...but competition and the free-market held them back? Or is the onus on the individuals who made a bad investment/idea and should rightfully fail as a result of their own poor decisions?

May be revealing a bit of my hand on the matter, but I was curious what you thought on the situation.

Many problems, because a full toolbelt is better than just a hammer.

@catchamber

I mean, I suppose I don't have much to disagree with what you said. I'm not sure if the statement replied to was exactly addressed? But I'm okay with leaving it there. If that's your two cents on the subjects.

I guess I just kind of wish America would do the opposite. Because we're currently pushing to be like everyone else, when everyone else is pushing to be like us. Canada is getting more privatized healthcare. More countries are switching to market/capitalistic economies. I'd rather not have another Obamacare boondoogle.