Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Callousqueen
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After watching (3 January 2020) Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker ...

It is unimpeachable that J J Abrams destroyed me being a fan of Star Trek after he made Star Trek movies. Now, it is unimpeachable and as clear and solid facts that the sun rises in the east: that J J Abrams and Disney has killed me as being a fan of Star Wars. The movie itself as a stand alone movie is not that bad as a movie. What I hate about the movie, is the fact that the movie has destroyed the cannons of Star Wars. Bringing back the emperor, having force healing, and on and on it went. With Disney going to be making Star Wars movies every two years, it is clear that the cannons of Star Wars is going to be like the cannon of the Terminator movies. The reason why Star Wars fans can united together on social media: because they fully understand the cannons of Star Wars. With Disney going to be making more Star Wars movies, the cannons of Star Wars becomes a era of a bygone ideology. Star Wars will turn into the Terminator movies, just making movies and selling tickets and Blue-Ry.
Hidden 1 yr ago 1 yr ago Post by Spambot
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I, for one, welcome our new 16th century boom-boom stick overlords.

Come on, who doesn't want to have a star wars cannon?

Oh, and...
Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Fabricant451
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To be fair, Force Healing has been part of canon in the EU (and let's not pretend Disney didn't just pluck things from the EU for the new movies anyway) and the only reason they put out episode 7 of The Mandalorian the day before Episode 9 came out was because Force Healing also plays a factor in that episode.

The Rise of Skywalker is bad but it's bad because JJ Abrams' entire thing is that he likes introducing story ideas but doesn't know how to end them, which is why Episode 9's ending is so hollow and ultimately does a disservice to the characters across the board. It doesn't help that the movie feels so 'written by committee' in a terrible attempt to please everybody rather than letting a director have a voice and vision for the story...which they had with episode 8 like it or not.

Personally the 'canon' of Star Wars is a weird thing to get hung up on because the canon and abilities of Star Wars are constantly changed and enhanced anyway that it becomes people unwilling to accept one thing because it 'breaks canon' despite it just being the same thing the other movies did: introducing new Force Powers or techniques. Star Wars canon had tiers of what was and wasn't 'true' canon so really, Star Wars canon was fucked and the slavish devotion to it having to be one way or no way is pointlessly limited. 'Why can a Force Ghost use lightning?' Because fuck you, their creed ends with 'there is no death; there is the Force' that's why. 'Why can Luke use the Force to jump out of the carbonite chamber?' Because fuck you, that's how the Force works.
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Hidden 1 yr ago Post by BrokenPromise
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Old star wars gave us a timeless story that people can enjoy even today 40 years later. Disney didn't, which is why a decade from now (possibly sooner) nobody's going to care about it. It's going to be as irrelevant as the prequel trilogy.

Regardless of what Disney decides to do with the franchise, I'm always going to have episode 4, 5, and 6. Episode 7 was enough for me to realize Disney star wars wasn't for me.
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Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Fabricant451
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It's going to be as irrelevant as the prequel trilogy.


In that case I eagerly await the day people break the sequels down into the same five memes over and and over again and act like the whole time they've just been underappreciated masterpieces of world building and story telling!

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Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Majoras End
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How they manage to do marvel right but star wars wrong is a mystery...
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Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Fabricant451
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How they manage to do marvel right but star wars wrong is a mystery...


Marvel isn't a slave to a trilogy format. Marvel also isn't afraid to introduce new characters and let them have the spotlight while the sequels seemed to have no confidence in letting the new characters have their own stories so everything still had to tie into fucking blood relations because in Star Wars movies everything only happens to the same group of people.

Getting away from the weird reverence of the 'Skywalker Saga' is the best possible move provided they trust their directors to have their own vision and freedom to explore it. Star Wars is a setting full of infinite potential so the need for the new movies to just still be about shit and people we already know, even in the lame anthology movies, is bizarre. I don't want to see Old Han Solo just doing the same things he did in the old movies only now he's slower and older. Incidentally I do want to see a Jedi Master and Hero dealing with his own myth and the failures of his actions and those of his order but I guess some don't.

Point is, what doesn't work about the sequel trilogy isn't the lack of a plan (the originals weren't exactly meticulously planned in advance) but the lack of trust in the audience to care about new characters without the old characters there too. Resetting the universe to just 'Empire vs Rebels 2.0' was creatively bankrupt but at least it gave us three (and a half if you count Poe) interesting characters that we all thought would carry the legacy and tradition of Star Wars without needing validation from the characters we already knew.

Episode 8 at least was willing to pass the torch but then TROS was like "Actually no".
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Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Callousqueen
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The Rise of Skywalker is bad but it's bad because JJ Abrams' entire thing is that he likes introducing story ideas but doesn't know how to end them, which is why Episode 9's ending is so hollow and ultimately does a disservice to the characters across the board. It doesn't help that the movie feels so 'written by committee' in a terrible attempt to please everybody rather than letting a director have a voice and vision for the story...which they had with episode 8 like it or not.


I think it is worse, he introduces ideas without explaining how it got there in the first place and how to end them.

We see the final battle, with the Resistance fighting on the hidden Sith planet that Rey discovers for the Resistance. For some reason the Resistance was down to a few ships in the last movie, and getting defeated because they were running out of gas, yes gas. They must have missed the Shell gas station. For some reason, everyone in the galaxy decides to show up with identical ships of the Resistance. They are all fighting at this hidden planet, and than, when the battle was won. The Ewok's look up in the sky and notice this battle going on in orbit of this home moon of Endor. So how do you have the same identical battle going on, with a secret Sith planet and Endor that everyone knows. They can be hundreds of light years away from each other. The victor is done, and everyone enjoys a party on Endor.

Than, we have Rey killing her grandfather, and than Rey dies. She is a dead corpse, and she is just a dead corpse. She is dead like any other human being, no special showing she is dead like a Jedi. Than Ben comes around, and now he has been turned to the good side and he is a Jedi again. He finds Rey, and gives all his force healing to Rey so she can come back to life. Since he gave his entire life force to Rey, Ben dies. Ben is dead, and he fades away like a Jedi.

This is the problem. The last movie was Star Wars: The Last Jedi. When she was dead, she did not fad away like the Jedi do when they die. NO ... she was a corpse. If she is a corpse, than it begs the question if she was a Jedi at the end of this movie. If she was not a Jedi at the end of this movie, than she was not a Jedi during Star Wars The Last Jedi. Well, you can say Luke Skywalker was the last Jedi and he died during the last movie. But oh no, we noticed his twin sister was also a Jedi too. Rey did call her Master, and was having her as her trainer to become a Jedi. So Star Wars The Last Jedi had Luke, his twin sister, and maybe Rey as Jedi so how do you really call it the last?

Please explain!
Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Fabricant451
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<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

I think it is worse, he introduces ideas without explaining how it got there in the first place and how to end them.

We see the final battle, with the Resistance fighting on the hidden Sith planet that Rey discovers for the Resistance. For some reason the Resistance was down to a few ships in the last movie, and getting defeated because they were running out of gas, yes gas. They must have missed the Shell gas station. For some reason, everyone in the galaxy decides to show up with identical ships of the Resistance. They are all fighting at this hidden planet, and than, when the battle was won. The Ewok's look up in the sky and notice this battle going on in orbit of this home moon of Endor. So how do you have the same identical battle going on, with a secret Sith planet and Endor that everyone knows. They can be hundreds of light years away from each other. The victor is done, and everyone enjoys a party on Endor.

Than, we have Rey killing her grandfather, and than Rey dies. She is a dead corpse, and she is just a dead corpse. She is dead like any other human being, no special showing she is dead like a Jedi. Than Ben comes around, and now he has been turned to the good side and he is a Jedi again. He finds Rey, and gives all his force healing to Rey so she can come back to life. Since he gave his entire life force to Rey, Ben dies. Ben is dead, and he fades away like a Jedi.

This is the problem. The last movie was Star Wars: The Last Jedi. When she was dead, she did not fad away like the Jedi do when they die. NO ... she was a corpse. If she is a corpse, than it begs the question if she was a Jedi at the end of this movie. If she was not a Jedi at the end of this movie, than she was not a Jedi during Star Wars The Last Jedi. Well, you can say Luke Skywalker was the last Jedi and he died during the last movie. But oh no, we noticed his twin sister was also a Jedi too. Rey did call her Master, and was having her as her trainer to become a Jedi. So Star Wars The Last Jedi had Luke, his twin sister, and maybe Rey as Jedi so how do you really call it the last?

Please explain!


I will explain this section by section.

We see the final battle, with the Resistance fighting on the hidden Sith planet that Rey discovers for the Resistance. For some reason the Resistance was down to a few ships in the last movie, and getting defeated because they were running out of gas, yes gas. They must have missed the Shell gas station. For some reason, everyone in the galaxy decides to show up with identical ships of the Resistance. They are all fighting at this hidden planet, and than, when the battle was won. The Ewok's look up in the sky and notice this battle going on in orbit of this home moon of Endor. So how do you have the same identical battle going on, with a secret Sith planet and Endor that everyone knows. They can be hundreds of light years away from each other. The victor is done, and everyone enjoys a party on Endor.


Ships in Star Wars have always run on fuel, hell planes in the real world we live in require fuel and as far back as A New Hope there are people fueling X-Wings before the Death Star battle. The attack on the Resistance at the start of The Last Jedi happens basically hours after the end of The Force Awakens and the Resistance is basically caught with their pants down. The people arrive at Exegol because Lando uses his sexual charisma to do it; a core part of the previous movie was how the Resistance still had allies but no one was coming to help them before Luke showed up. One would naturally think that in the span between 8 and 9 that allies would show up prior to the end of 9 or else part of 9 would be rallying and recruiting the backup but hey what do I know. If they wanted their Avengers Assemble moment they did it poorly.

As far as Endor and the Ewoks are concerned, it's just references and for the audience to go "I know those!" while being a callback to Return of the Jedi where the galaxy immediately knows the Emperor has been defeated.

Than, we have Rey killing her grandfather, and than Rey dies. She is a dead corpse, and she is just a dead corpse. She is dead like any other human being, no special showing she is dead like a Jedi. Than Ben comes around, and now he has been turned to the good side and he is a Jedi again. He finds Rey, and gives all his force healing to Rey so she can come back to life. Since he gave his entire life force to Rey, Ben dies. Ben is dead, and he fades away like a Jedi.


Not every Jedi dies like that. And we can't even assume they all do because Anakin Skywalker didn't, that we saw, and the ones that died in Order 66 didn't all have such luxuries. Qui-Gon didn't vanish, he lived long enough to have final dying wods in Obi-Wan's arms and then they burned his body at the end of the movie, and then two movies later Qui-Gon is said to be the one to teach Yoda and stuff about the Force Ghost shenanigans. Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke were, at the time of their death, fully in tune with the Force and masters in their on right. Rey not vanishing doesn't make her not a Jedi, it makes her grounds for the worst type of redemption arc.

This is the problem. The last movie was Star Wars: The Last Jedi. When she was dead, she did not fad away like the Jedi do when they die. NO ... she was a corpse. If she is a corpse, than it begs the question if she was a Jedi at the end of this movie. If she was not a Jedi at the end of this movie, than she was not a Jedi during Star Wars The Last Jedi. Well, you can say Luke Skywalker was the last Jedi and he died during the last movie. But oh no, we noticed his twin sister was also a Jedi too. Rey did call her Master, and was having her as her trainer to become a Jedi. So Star Wars The Last Jedi had Luke, his twin sister, and maybe Rey as Jedi so how do you really call it the last?


Luke Skywalker, at the end of The Last Jedi, literally says "I will not be the last Jedi." He is, at this point, referring to the fact that Rey will succeed him and, having learned from his failures and the failures of the old Jedi order, would hopefully 'do it right' with the Jedi this time. This is why the villain, who has failed twice now and learned nothing, has lost everything while finally getting the power he so craved and why the girl who had nothing now has everything. Leia was hinted to be Force sensitive as far back as Empire Strikes Back - and don't say that Luke speaking to her in the Force was because they were siblings because they didn't know that yet.

Again, the furious retcons and undo's in TROS just diminishes the previous two movies - let alone the OT and PT. Suddenly Rey's actions weren't her own, suddenly Finn's arc is regressed back to just screaming after Rey, suddenly Anakin's lightsaber is some sacred thing despite Luke not giving a shit about it after losing it on Bespin and using a green one the rest of his life, suddenly Poe has a criminal past with a character who is in the movie just so audiences know that Poe is a not gay, suddenly Luke was 'wrong' despite JJ putting him in that situation in the first place, suddenly the last Star Wars movie in this 9 movie saga is the cinematic equivalent of a video game side quest.

But hey, subscribe to Disney Plus where you can pretend The Mandalorian is excellent programming and not just a vessel for Baby Yoda merch!
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Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Callousqueen
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@Fabricant451All I can really say is, the first three Star Wars movies were well thought out, and it really worked well with each other.

The problem with the Emperor, he was in his 60's with the Episode 1 when Anakin Skywalker was 10 years old and he had to be in his 70's when Anakin was in his 20's. Luke and Leia are twins, and were born when Anakine was in his early 20's and the Emperor was in his 70's. When Luke became a Jedi, he was in his 20's and Darth Vader must have been in his 40's, making the Emperor into his 90's. When Luke died, Luke looked like he was in his 60's, so this would make the Emperor into his 130's. So Rey who just turned into her 20's killed her grandfather who was in his 130's or older. Really, your bringing the emperor back?

Even when Darth Vader was close to death and the mask was taken off, he did look like he was in his 60's. Even old Ben, who was in his early 20's and took on Anakin who was only 10 years old -- the age difference was less than 15 years. And when old Ben did die at the hands of Darth Vader, he looked to be in his 70's.

So when Rey did kill the emperor, was he in his 130's or getting close to being 200 years old?
Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Kuro
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@Fabricant451All I can really say is, the first three Star Wars movies were well thought out, and it really worked well with each other.

The problem with the Emperor, he was in his 60's with the Episode 1 when Anakin Skywalker was 10 years old and he had to be in his 70's when Anakin was in his 20's. Luke and Leia are twins, and were born when Anakine was in his early 20's and the Emperor was in his 70's. When Luke became a Jedi, he was in his 20's and Darth Vader must have been in his 40's, making the Emperor into his 90's. When Luke died, Luke looked like he was in his 60's, so this would make the Emperor into his 130's. So Rey who just turned into her 20's killed her grandfather who was in his 130's or older. Really, your bringing the emperor back?

Even when Darth Vader was close to death and the mask was taken off, he did look like he was in his 60's. Even old Ben, who was in his early 20's and took on Anakin who was only 10 years old -- the age difference was less than 15 years. And when old Ben did die at the hands of Darth Vader, he looked to be in his 70's.

So when Rey did kill the emperor, was he in his 130's or getting close to being 200 years old?


Force users are known to live longer than regular people.
Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Callousqueen
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<Snipped quote by Callousqueen>

Force users are known to live longer than regular people.


We know the Star Wars universe has the ability to clone people. We also know the clone army was altered to be cloned so they can grow up to be adults twice as fast as the normal practice. If force users live longer than regular people, would you not want your children to live a longer lifespan? Would anyone ask a stupid question to a mother with a newborn this question: Do you want your child to live to be 5 years old or 90 years old? The Star Wars universe does have a wealthy class society, so someone would alter their children to be force users so they can live a longer unnatural lifespan. So you would not have Sith and Jedi, you would have a third class of force users.
Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Fabricant451
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<Snipped quote by Kuro>

We know the Star Wars universe has the ability to clone people. We also know the clone army was altered to be cloned so they can grow up to be adults twice as fast as the normal practice. If force users live longer than regular people, would you not want your children to live a longer lifespan? Would anyone ask a stupid question to a mother with a newborn this question: Do you want your child to live to be 5 years old or 90 years old? The Star Wars universe does have a wealthy class society, so someone would alter their children to be force users so they can live a longer unnatural lifespan. So you would not have Sith and Jedi, you would have a third class of force users.


The Force isn't some Gattaca thing where parents can choose to make their kid Force sensitive or not.
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Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Callousqueen
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<Snipped quote by Callousqueen>

The Force isn't some Gattaca thing where parents can choose to make their kid Force sensitive or not.


Kathleen Kennedy can make that happen. She can announce Star Wars: The Birth of Gattaca, and be in a T-shirt saying "The Force Is Female"
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<Snipped quote by Fabricant451>

Kathleen Kennedy can make that happen. She can announce Star Wars: The Birth of Gattaca, and be in a T-shirt saying "The Force Is Female"


Kathleen Kennedy isn't the be all, end all for Star Wars, she doesn't own Disney nor does she have final say as to what goes in the movies, she's not some franchise ruining boogeyman. Also that shirt was about Nike shoes and not Star Wars.
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<Snipped quote by Callousqueen>

Kathleen Kennedy isn't the be all, end all for Star Wars, she doesn't own Disney nor does she have final say as to what goes in the movies, she's not some franchise ruining boogeyman. Also that shirt was about Nike shoes and not Star Wars.


Who knows what Disney is going to do with Star Wars. If they feel they can make money with a movie they are going to make it. Maybe they will blend Star Wars and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Oh dear, Buffy and Faith are fighting each other again with lightsabers. Who knows, a mixing with Star Wars and Star Trek. If it can make money, just make the movie. Long live the committee of placing any tropes within a movie.
Hidden 1 yr ago Post by Callousqueen
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@Fabricant451



If Disney sees this, they might make it into a real movie
Hidden 1 yr ago 1 yr ago Post by NuttsnBolts
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JJ Abrams issue is the story telling, not necessarily the parts that were or we're not cannon in the series. To point out a few situations where this is apparent would be to include:

- The bait and switch of Chewie's death as it never gave the audience to grieve and feel an emotion.
- Telling the audience Rey is a Palpatine moments before she does the lightning trick. It would have been more impactful to be like "wtf?"
- Finn's damn question that never got answered.
- The switchback to "oh your parents were special after being nothing"
- The believable aspect of Rey being a granddaughter when it would make sense if they followed a similar route to Anakin and made her a Creation of the Force as well.

He knows how to create action, he knows how to create tension, and his general designs are really good, but he is horrible at story telling and will use nostalgia of things the fans want to create that feeling of awe when it's not fully deserved.

What I do think Disney was, and is, trying to achieve is to boost the fandom in the same way Marvel has allowed people to walk around with comic book shirts on and not feel out of place. Each movie has its BB8, its porg, its baby frik, and even baby Yoda; just that character that's cutesy and cool for the kids to like — not to mention the amount of other merchandise being produced. I work in a large scale hardware chain, and ever since the Star Wars series has started back up we've had garden ornaments, door mats, kids tables, draght stoppers, cushions; all Star Wars related.

It sells, and that's where I believe Disney won't be too bothered by the fact that the movie didn't do too well, because in the end more people know Star Wars. The younger generation who don't know the difference will buy that cool fandom stuff, and the older generation will buy the original merch. In the end, Disney makes money and the movies really are just a 2 hour advertisement piece.



Watch the first 10min (from the 4min mark) of Gruen for some cool info. These guys back in 2015 had a show that talked about marketing and how various companies did it. At one point they're discussing how Star Wars and Lipstick have anything in common, but there is a product out there that's a Star Wars Lipstick
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Hidden 1 yr ago Post by metanoia
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How they manage to do marvel right but star wars wrong is a mystery...


Two words: Kevin Feige
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Hidden 1 yr ago 1 yr ago Post by Crimson Paladin
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I was a huge fan of Star Wars, and Disney killed my interest in it, aside from The Mandalorian. The old EU was a disjointed mess filled with retcons and bad ideas, but it was respectful to the OT characters- Luke started a Jedi Academy (in a Sith temple, no less) and founded a new Jedi Order, Han and Leia married and stayed together despite the tragedy of their son turning to the Dark Side, and the Imperial Remnant mellowed out and eventually even formed its own corps of light-sided force users.

In the Disney sequel trilogy, all of our original heroes are jaded failures who exist to make way for the new heroes. I understand the concept of passing the torch, but it was done in a way that was hugely disrespectful to the spirit and characters of the Original Trilogy. I think both Finn and Rey had a lot of potential, but they blew it by giving Rey the ability to harness the Force in multiple ways without any training, and making Finn into a comic relief ex-janitor despite his interesting background as an ex-Stormtrooper who grew up in the First Order. I suppose they succeeded at their attempt to make Captain Phasma into the new Boba Fett, but unfortunately it was in the "caped, armored character who mostly stands around and goes out like a punk" way.

And for some reason, Disney took the dumbest aspects of the old EU, like Palpatine coming back (Dark Empire), a seemingly dead Sith Lord returning and pulling an army of Sith Troopers and ships out from nowhere (Star Wars: Legacy), Han and Leia's son turning to the Dark Side and becoming a fascist enforcer (Legacy of the Force), and an Imperial Remnant possessing a superweapon that can destroy multiple planets on the other side of the galaxy (Dark Empire II), and made them even dumber and nonsensical.

[/Vent Heat]
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