So, as we prepare for the next season of our Arena stuff, I had some stuff I wanted to open up discussions for.
1)There is still no ETA on the upcoming system changes on Mahz' side for the ranking system. So, his current one will suffice as the global system, and I, or another, will handle the season by season rankings. Wagers will be nixed in terms of points, however you can still bet a weapon or item.
I’ve not got much to say on that currently, though it’s good to hear.
2) There has been talk that the current T1 system doesn't work for most, or all, of us. I am wondering why no other system has been proposed, or much talked about. When we wanted a different tier system we got one, though it sort of fell in our laps. Is that what we are also hoping for here?
From what I’ve seen and after mulling over it, I’m currently starting to believe it’s not T-1, but the fact not everyone understands it as well as others are assuming or have a firm grasp on it. Taking that in mind, I think reasonably, Logic dictates over any established rule . However, it seems to have been overlooked in many cases from what I’ve observed recently as a third party. This has likely lead to issues and beliefs that the T-1 system doesn’t work.
In addition, it’s not exactly easy to distinguish talk about Tiers or T-1 from each other, at least to me. I think mainly because both topics usually end up following each other rather often shifting from one to another shortly after. Don’t believe me, look back on the conversations in different thread and you’ll see T-1 or Tiers shortly following in the conversation which makes clarification over the actual problem an issue.
I understand, to an alright level, the T-1 basics and how to apply them in combat on a base level. Aka as a human PC. That isn’t hard when using a weapon I’m familiar with, but I agree with Melon. The T-1 examples cover the basic, often with merely melee, and has little to no decent examples that cover how important the basics are in a match that includes magic. This makes it very difficult, unless you just leap in, to actually understand and apply it with that addition. It also doesn’t explain what happens when a magic prep is blocked, interrupted, fails/succeeds against a defense of higher/lower value or how a magic prep it is considered successful, something that many newbies need to understand before having the confidence to leap in.
In addition, realistically an individual or being of higher intelligence will never simply do one thing at a time. As fair as it might be, they would try to win the battle and likely try to do 2-3 actions per post from preparing an attack/spell to actually lashing out to wound at the same time.
Logically, at least in my head, doing too much at once can lead to weakening the effect/power of some things (multitask has its limits folks even for geniuses) or making it less accurate due to split focus. Then again, I’m still learning this and yet to step into the arena officially, which means I can be wrong in believing that is how reality works.
Now moving onto the issues of the Tiers. We all, in some form or way, agree that the Tier system is completely flawed and rather...shitty as it doesn’t seem to do what it is originally meant to. And a few have stated that bitching about it won’t change it so rather than be a broken record, let’s fix this issue by seeking out the main problems with the Tier system.
So the main questions that need to be answered are some that are pretty basic:
What is the Tier System’s sole purpose?
Why is it necessary?
What influences does it, if any, have over fights in the arena? Both in noncompetitive and competitive, tourney and non?
Can we do without it and how well would that work for the arena over all?
The examples are too vague or less specific. Well, what would be better ones or the best options to replace them? How do those match up with created original PCs?
Are they distinct enough for everyone to see the difference between each tier/level and not blend/confused them?
Does it help with PC creation if a player is aiming for a key tier/level for their character?
What are some possible fixes and how can we obtain them? (Be very, very specific and provide examples on this question to prove your point. A hard and heavy motto I relay to others I work with is simple: if you take things away or have issues with something, you better be prepared to provide something in return. Else, it is pointless to even address it at all if you can’t be part of the solution.)
There’s likely better or more questions that can be addressed for the Tier system, but these, to me, keep slipping under the discussions and seemed often overlooked. They are also the first to come to my head as well when thinking of it and how to create a new one. A good start is answering those questions in a clear way for many people’s understanding.
3) In terms of tournaments, I am an advocate for one of the following:
3a) Either accepting the GM's acceptances
or
3b) Gms offering a discovery phase wherein all tournament participants can chime in on characters before the matches start.
Once matches start then there should be no mention of folks being OP. It really detracts from the actual matches, and in one point, caused one person to drop out. We have to trust that the GM knows what he/she is doing
I see a few issues either way, to be honest, and no clear way to solve them for either method.
However, option 3b feels more like setting an individual up for a lynching mob then anything to me. Especially if the group is a bunch of newbies and they spot a PC that seems ‘unbeatable’ then aim to nerf said individual quite badly. They will likely want to rip that PC apart and that could be in the worse way. People are almost rarely pleasant in their statements when it comes to issues they have, especially when not directly acknowledged or addressed, and it’s very hard to determine the tone over the net. Most times, it’s assumed negative which leads out to full flaming each other rather than solutions. Currently, I'm completely calm and reasonable while writing this but I bet someone will read it negatively at some point and think I'm trying to start an argument. Yes, everyone in the arena has a right to their opinion. However
how you address things reflects on the arena and players in it more than I think people realize.
Yes, Rilla's b3) option gets the bad blood out earlier and allows the GM to realize which Players might be the most problematic, but it doesn’t mean the feelings won’t still linger. Or influence the match in some way. Especially if it delays a tourney from even getting started due to addressing more than one individual's issues. I can see it could put extra stress on the GM before the actual fight has even started and that doesn’t mean it won’t carry over.
Though be honest, the only way to see if this method will work is by creating a mini event and requesting volunteers that don’t interact regularly enough to establish trust. If they aren't too comfortable with their fellow players or don't even trust each other to be fair, this method I feel causes more issues than it solves. For example: if you put Rilla as Gm with players being Melonhead, Skallagrim, IN and Khan in that situation then it would most likely work out fine without issues. The question is: Will that work in most cases? With complete strangers and seasoned fighters, without more issues than it solves? If not, it’s not a very fitting solution.
As for Yosh's suggestion and the views on that from others, I can see both points pretty well as I’ve had experience with having multiple GMs who’s styles don’t really match and not all mesh well. However, I feel the mention of delaying a tourney from starting is a bit moot. The reason I stated this is because compared to getting 3 individuals to cooperate compared to several players agreeing or at least accepting the terms, the prior is a lot less time consuming because only those 3 or so individual’s opinion matter. While in the later you have half a dozen people who could and likely will continue arguing just for the sake of it which can literally take forever. It’s just like getting players to vote on something and trying to be fair by getting an answer from everyone: bigger pain than it’s worth.
The 3 or so GM grading might best work if the GMs were using the same basic system to grade each CS, all sharing their results and determining if the character entering will match up against everyone else's’ to make the fights interesting and fairest they can be. Usually that means to me stripping the PCs down to their natural abilities (Aka, omitting magic, equipment and anything that is normally removed during a strip search) and determining the advantages there, then going to equipment stage, magic stage and finally any additions that don’t belong in any of the earlier ones. Determining how each thing alters the limitations or increasing advantages based on what is added and if it is still reasonably counterable. IF at the end or at any level that advantage hasn’t a possible counter by most the players in the tourney then make a note and present it as something to address. Yes it sounds simple but I’m aware it’s likely more complicated than I can wrap my head around.
4) What changes would you like to see in next years ranking system? I am in favor of everyone fighting everyone once, instead of cycling through the same few people. It'll open up people to new fights and keep people from farming points from one person.
I think it would be nice to give a reason for branching off away from the same individuals over and over, through keep in mind some personalities might not mix well. Through how many people are actually within the ranking system? Who are we able to seek out and request a fight from for ranking? There’s no real list of people that I have been able to see or know if they are active. So those involved with the Ranking system might be much smaller than you think, which can be an issue because you would have to fight the same person many times or end the season prematurely.
5) I am still looking to host the Rookie Tournament, but there are also plans for me to move so my internet access may be dodgy around Thanksgiving and forward. I still want to do a preset character tournament, in terms of powers, but leave physical attributes open to the character creators.
That sounds like you can expect a number of Hulk natured PCs in that one to me. Everyone will be gunning for the max stats, or at least the competitive ones. Unless you have some sort of limit or way to prevent that, anyone that isn’t physically at their peak will depend mostly on their magic to win which can be good or bad. Yes, I didn’t exactly state if this was good or bad but I felt that was an issue to bring up to be honest. Not to mention what about magic that actually assist physical stats?
As for during that time, why not plan out the Tourney and use that to provide CS examples, establish limits to max physical power, rules, etc. And also reflect on the issues in the last tourneys that other players have held, determining a way to prevent those from becoming one in yours? Interest check and post advertisement might also be a good to get as much fresh blood as possible, including what determines a newbie from a seasoned fighter.
6) What other types of tournaments would you guys like to see. or would you even really like to have the rankings continue?
- Pure Melee: Both using just fists and basic weapons, common weapons. Roman Gladiator style a bit.
- Low level magic: Minor magic that’s on the much lower end of the magic classification. Minor element bending to illusions, street level magic, etc.
- Monster: tourney actually based off creatures, from humanoid to not so much with a reasonable limit. (curious how many people would be willing to give this a shot actually.)
- Team Tourneys: I understand this would be a bit harder as you risk people vanishing or dropping and leave people without a partner, but doesn’t mean I don’t want to see that any less. Personally it might be fun to see the different pairing and characters people create together for it.
Those are a few I’m willing to toss out as any others, I would have trouble figuring out balances and limitations.
7) ALso, next month I'll make the thread for the Super Card in December. Has anyone else wanted to join it? I'm confirmed for the show, but not sure who I'll be facing. I think Skally and Melon are set to battle each other there as one of the main events.
Super Card? *tilts head* I have no idea what that is…
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