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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by BBeast
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First things first, I support divine essence being a separate thing to souls. This has always been how I've seen it. Divine essence is the 'stuff' which makes gods godly. Gods may or may not also have a soul, as divine essence is traditionally bound to a god's blood (a.k.a. ichor), which is a part of their body. But with divine essence being a separate thing, this resolves many issues of why gods and demigods are special, regardless of the fine details.

On heroes, part of the cost of making a Hero heroic is bolstering their soul with Might, making them immortal.

On soul decay, I propose this: An intact and healthy body inhibits the decay of the resident soul. Stuff like divine essence and the MP invested to make Heroes heroic further reinforces souls against decay to the extent of stopping decay entirely while they are alive. Part of making an immortal species is spending MP on their ability to keep their souls together indefinitely. Ad hoc solutions, such as those available to mortals, do not prevent this fraying, and self-made immortals will need to work to maintain their immortality (e.g. a lich needs to keep consuming souls so as to replenish the part of their soul which frays).

On the death of powerful beings, typically their death is brought about by something which weakens the being to the extent that the being is too weak to not die. At this stage, stripped of power, the being (e.g. god, hero) is likely (although not certainly) too weak to resist the Sky of Pyres.

On what counts as a body, it is whatever you have spent Might on to make as a body for your species.

But now a biggie, finite souls:

Finite souls is a logical consequence of any reincarnation-centric system, otherwise why do souls need to be recycled? Furthermore, finite souls is the central idea of Katharsos' Sphere, so a rejection of this idea is a rejection of the character as a whole.

A finite soul system will require enough souls to fill billions of mortals in the reservoir of souls to not be problematic (because if you try to push that boundary much further, then the planet's natural resources can't sustain the population), or trillions if you count animals. Since souls are not discrete, we do not need a fixed number.

Considering the backlash to the idea of a soul crisis, I think we should ensure that we do have enough souls that natural population growth on Galbar will never deplete the reservoir. In this case, the limited number of souls only becomes an issue if someone attempts to horde billions of souls or the souls stop being recycled, that is, if IC events intentionally try to create a soul crisis. If Cyclone is wise he won't personally instigate a soul crisis. Leave that to the gods whose goals are to consume all of reality (*cough* Anzillu *cough*).

One solution to a potential soul crisis, if someone attempts to cause a soul crisis, is indeed to find a way to create more souls, or find some other system. There is no reason why the characters cannot invest in some new system if they find the current one flawed. However, the system outlined as part of the Sky of Pyres stands as a good status quo. Spheres are malleable, so we can change the status quo via IC actions. Of course, any effort to change the status quo enforced by a Sphere will be a difficult and challenging task, but that only makes for a better story. Players are allowed to get creative, to find ways to work around the limitations of the system their characters find themselves in.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by BBeast
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In other news, we have some second round draftees to approve.

@Scarifar. You have added some example powers to the Family Portfolio as requested. As such, your character is now accepted. However, I have one question for your consideration: What other Portfolios might Arae go for?

@Lauder. You made the requested changes to Vakk. As such, your character is now accepted.

@Vec. We have tried discussing more abilities to shove into the Great Dark, but as you already have one (being the entire night sky) this is enough. Others can be sorted out later or developed IC. Your character is now accepted.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by Cyclone
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On soul decay, I propose this: An intact and healthy body inhibits the decay of the resident soul. Stuff like divine essence and the MP invested to make Heroes heroic further reinforces souls against decay to the extent of stopping decay entirely while they are alive. Part of making an immortal species is spending MP on their ability to keep their souls together indefinitely. Ad hoc solutions, such as those available to mortals, do not prevent this fraying, and self-made immortals will need to work to maintain their immortality (e.g. a lich needs to keep consuming souls so as to replenish the part of their soul which frays).


I quite like this.

On the death of powerful beings, typically their death is brought about by something which weakens the being to the extent that the being is too weak to not die. At this stage, stripped of power, the being (e.g. god, hero) is likely (although not certainly) too weak to resist the Sky of Pyres.


Though I didn't say so, this was more or less what I'd imagined as the counterpoint to the Discord argument of "ghost gods" running around indefinitely. I agree.

Considering the backlash to the idea of a soul crisis, I think we should ensure that we do have enough souls that natural population growth on Galbar will never deplete the reservoir. In this case, the limited number of souls only becomes an issue if someone attempts to horde billions of souls or the souls stop being recycled, that is, if IC events intentionally try to create a soul crisis. If Cyclone is wise he won't personally instigate a soul crisis. Leave that to the gods whose goals are to consume all of reality (*cough* Anzillu *cough*).


In case I haven't been clear (EDIT: In hindsight, I haven't been. My bad!), I figured this to be a given. The Architect would have brought in enough souls (by his estimation) to sustain life, and as animals etc. also have souls, it stands to reason that the rise of civilization and intelligent mortals will coincide with a decline of wildlife, thus keeping the souls in balance here.

The idea of a soul crisis is why Katharsos is said to oppose the "sequestering" of souls. So all of what you said lines up nicely with how I'd imagined things and I have no objections there.

Thank you for your input, BBeast. I bestow a chocolate-chip CyCookie to thee.



Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Scarifar
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@BBeast As mentioned sometime before, I was considering something like Sanctuary or Home. Alternatively, given enough storytelling and justification, something like Wisdom may be possible.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Goldeagle1221
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Crispy Octopus
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Crispy Octopus Into the fryer we go.

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wowza
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Goldeagle1221
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wowza


Dude I don't even remember if I was serious, satirical, or if it was for the joke at the end. I don't even agree with all of it, but I'm happy I did it. It was fun, silly, but fun.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Kho
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Bigger cages! Longer chains!
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by BBeast
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Cyclone
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The train keeps on chugging. We'll get back to station eventually!

@DracoLunaris for Azura
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Kho
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The Revolution Endures!
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It's over. Go home damn you!
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Turbowraith
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I should have followed that discussion on souls more closely, but alas RL got in the way. Now, to be super duper honest, I've gotta say the whole soul fraying concept isn't my cup of tea. I mean, adding such hard mechanics to a somewhat abstract idea kind of diminishes its' value, and sets a handicap for most beings, while also setting some tedious existential questions. I mean, with the Lich example, the Lich's soul would end up being a completely different one, or an amalgamation of sorts. Though it's a cool concept, that could produce some wacky creature ideas, I fear it could, in the long run, be sort of limiting for worldbuilding purposes, new ideas that could emerge and whatnot. Also, though it's not my place to judge, it is my personal opinion that the Sky of Pyres would have far more cosmological weight, and could produce interesting dilemmas and ontological queries if souls were eternal, but limited by nature.

Also, don't turn my spoopy ghosts to dust pls.

In all seriousness, and if I could myself propose something, I would say that it would be better for souls to remain nebulous, ill-defined and ageless cores of being, but very much finite.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Strange Rodent
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While I could go either way on the topic so long as there are no mechanical restrictions other than those already imposed by might, I do take issue with this:

I mean, with the Lich example, the Lich's soul would end up being a completely different one, or an amalgamation of sorts.


Don't animals eat physical things and absorb it into themselves for energy? Couldn't liches and souls work in a similar way? I wouldn't say that you're just an amalgamation of what you've eaten in the past month except on a very microscopic level, which isn't exactly practical
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Turbowraith
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Well, I don't know the exact physics behind it, though I have caught sight of some statements proclaiming that an organism is pretty much an exact copy of itself after a while, with all constituent matter replaced (and that poses some existential questions on its' own), I think that likening a strictly material process to a philosophical/spiritual one that involves the singular unit that measures being is sort of like comparing apples and oranges. On the other hand though, this is an RP, and we could simply handwave soul-grafting/absorption/etc. as it simply working as such and not actually replacing the soul in question. I would still very much prefer souls to be imperishable unless subjected to specific effects, though. Keep that dream-logic in mythology and all.
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Crispy Octopus
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@TurbowraithYou're Foe right? Zombie god?
Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Oraculum
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On the topic of souls, I have no issues with souls being finite and any crisis plots that might entail, and I agree with it being more practical for divines to have essences distinct from regular souls. However, I have to object to the notion of soul fraying. As I have said in the Discord, I find that it makes things needlessly more complex without contributing anything interesting or useful to the setting that could not be achieved by much simpler means. Consider the following:

On soul decay, I propose this: An intact and healthy body inhibits the decay of the resident soul. Stuff like divine essence and the MP invested to make Heroes heroic further reinforces souls against decay to the extent of stopping decay entirely while they are alive. Part of making an immortal species is spending MP on their ability to keep their souls together indefinitely. Ad hoc solutions, such as those available to mortals, do not prevent this fraying, and self-made immortals will need to work to maintain their immortality (e.g. a lich needs to keep consuming souls so as to replenish the part of their soul which frays).

On the death of powerful beings, typically their death is brought about by something which weakens the being to the extent that the being is too weak to not die. At this stage, stripped of power, the being (e.g. god, hero) is likely (although not certainly) too weak to resist the Sky of Pyres.

On what counts as a body, it is whatever you have spent Might on to make as a body for your species.


In essence, this amounts to emulating a natural process (aging and bodily damage leading to death) which normally occurs on its own. In such a system, a being would be weakened by having a compromised body, which leads to a decaying soul. But a compromised body results in weakness regardless of the state of the soul within; indeed, even in a cosmology where souls were absent altogether, physical harm would bring one closer to death, regardless of any ulterior circumstances. In addition, a soul's health being dependant on the body's condition could lead to some strange quandaries: would someone who has lost a limb have their soul decay at an accelerated rate? Would someone who has suffered from a severe disease, and then recovered, nevertheless die prematurely because the period of illness resulted in pieces of their soul sloughing away faster than normal?

As concerns immortal beings, divinely blessed and not, soul decay once again adds a layer of intricacy that does not appear strictly necessary. The additional effort (MP) spent in reinforcing the souls of such entities could just as easily be explained by the difficulty of creating physical forms for them that better withstand the advance of time, something that would need to be done anyway if the creator does not wish for them to grow decrepit under the immense age they would eventually reach. Those mortals that would attain immortality by their own means would be in a similar predicament. They might be able to extend their lifespan by some means, but they would have to keep themselves from rotting away in order to enjoy it, and no amount of consuming souls would help them with that. The lich in the example would need to, for instance, drain its victims' life force to strengthen its crumbling bones; that is not to say that it shouldn't be able to strip them of their souls for some purpose, but, as mentioned, fuelling its unlife with them alone would be a futile endeavour by the system's very rules.

Furthermore, soul fraying seems to me all the more dubious since there is no definite description of how it occurs. It was said that:

I imagine a fully decayed soul would just be a bunch of crumbles, effectively a lump of soul ash with a few chunks big enough to retain some memories etc.
Cyclone in the chat yesterday


It's not very clear how this would fit into the workings of the soul as determined by the Sky of Pyres. If the decay is manifested in the soul falling apart, how would it be purified at Katharsos' hands? And, if souls crumble back into ash as they reach the end of their course, why would he need to redistribute their material by artificial means? Far from providing a justification for his work, soul decay might in fact place its usefulness into question.

One last note, not necessarily related to fraying but still linked with matters of death and the soul. I notice the OP still has this point, written before Katharsos was conceived:

3 Might: Resurrect a mortal or a hero. Reaching into the depths of death and plucking back a mortal soul is no easy task, even for a god, and will likely involve a quest to whatever Sphere the soul has gone for its afterlife. The cost for healing or building a new body for said mortal is included in this act. This cost does not cover any sundry expenses incurred during a quest to the afterlife and back.
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Since in the new system death involves one's mind and memories being destroyed and scattered, eventually going to form new living beings, the feasibility of this might need to be revised.
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Hidden 5 yrs ago Post by Turbowraith
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@Crispy Octopus In the flesh! Sort of.

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@OraculumYeah, actually I think I agree with all your points.

Soul fraying does create a lot of complexity. Hm.
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