Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Mao Mao
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@Bee I'm sorry Bee, I didn't mean to click on your profile. Just wanted to google search your profile Gif cuz it reminded me of one of those casting couch skit girls that you find on phub.

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Hidden 6 yrs ago 6 yrs ago Post by Sierra
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Five posts ago I was about to have some choice words for the subtle threat of thread closure.

Then this happened.

We can shut this shit down now.

(This is a not-so-subtle suggestion to rerail the conversation.)
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by pugbutter
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<Snipped quote by pugbutter>

And the worst side of free roleplay are uninspiring posts condensed into one or two sentences.

This argument goes for literally any of the sections -- and at that point becomes a non-argument. What you are saying here is much less an argument than 'bad writing is bad writing.'


And Haley already agreed with those. Pointing them out is a tautology.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Dion
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@pugbutter I was under the impression this was a group discussion, much less us answering Haley's question on a 1-on-1 basis. Fact of the matter is that you're putting forth ideas that are so mind numbingly basic that I'm surprised someone of your calibre would even feel the need to point them out. I'm also not really sure what 'those (things?)' are that Haley agreed to. I never agreed to anything, however, and that's why I commented on your post.

It's similar to Tex's whole 'I can reduce advanced posts to 1 or 2 paragraphs without losing the core essence' which is equally missing the point as 'advanced posts are a lot of fluff' because this is not a thing I perceive as something inherent to advanced, or even limited to advanced -- I've hosted more than enough casual RP's, and if we wanna talk about fluff, we might as well talk about casual. The part that makes me feel like you're just saying 'bad writing is bad writing' however is when you say:

Details are bad if they're not, minimally, inspiring a sense of awe for this fictional place and its inhabitants, and ideally also developing characters; forwarding a plot; creating themes, symbols, and imagery; establishing a narrative tone.


So, I will summarize what you said here in the way I read it, but I'm quite sure I captured the essence of what you meant. You are saying that if details do not perform the minimal thing details are written into the story for, they are bad. Hmmkay. Turn that any one way, you could make a similar blanket statement about any of the subsections.

Writing in flashy combat moves in arena is bad if they do not minimally inspire a sense of awe for the combatant, and ideally, forward the fight, create a persona, etc.

Writing in no details at all for the sake of minimalism is bad if this does not, minimally, make reading the post easier for the reader, or reduce visual clutter, etc.

They all come down to one core thing; "if the thing you do does not accomplish the goal of the thing you do, it's not done good," which isn't really an interesting point to me. Besides that, the beauty of it is that all these things are subjective as hell and what would not inspire a sense of awe for you could theoretically inspire a sense of awe for me.

Tex's 'game' of reducing advanced fluffy posts to a few paragraphs.. is then a magnificent WOOSH at the very least but in my humble opinion not much more than a blanket position on writing that he and seemingly you(?) take that lacks much more depth than 'many words for purpose of words are bad, ugg ugg huh huh'. And in my very subjective eyes, it makes you seem a little out of touch with writing, and perhaps a tad elitist. "I can write what you write in less words." I'm sure you can, but I'd probably enjoy reading it less.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by pugbutter
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I just didn't see the point in spouting points already made at someone who already conceded to them:

While I agree with most of the rest, I must say I respectfully disagree [with this passage].
HaleyTheRandom


Your philosophy is different, it would seem.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Dion
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My gripe is much less with you since your position was more nuanced than the other party I was 'partially' responding to, but yes, you are right, I think the point definitely warrants some discussion since that was the point of this thread from what I can tell.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Sierra
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For everyone seemingly in agreement that it's bad, I don't see a lot of tackling of the question "why?"

Why do so many people conflate quality with quantity? As someone running an RP in the advanced section that seemingly has not incurred this problem to remotely the same degree as the cited examples, do I just have really wonderful players or is there something that provokes this (and by extension, can be done to avoid it)?
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by PrinceAlexus
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For everyone seemingly in agreement that it's bad, I don't see a lot of tackling of the question "why?"

Why do so many people conflate quality with quantity? As someone running an RP in the advanced section that seemingly has not incurred this problem to remotely the same degree as the cited examples, do I just have really wonderful players or is there something that provokes this (and by extension, can be done to avoid it)?


Theres more skill in telling a story with fewer words and achieving the same goal. Lengh and post size is not the only factor of qaulity. Telling a story In 300 words we'll and effectively, is better than 1000 words with 400 of lore dump and another 100 of padding.

Lore dumping for hundreds of words, eh. Telling it as part of a well woven story, linking charecters and past organicly. That's qaulity.

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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Dion
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For everyone seemingly in agreement that it's bad, I don't see a lot of tackling of the question "why?"

Why do so many people conflate quality with quantity? As someone running an RP in the advanced section that seemingly has not incurred this problem to remotely the same degree as the cited examples, do I just have really wonderful players or is there something that provokes this (and by extension, can be done to avoid it)?


Quality =/= quantity but they are intrinsically related in most cases. I'm not reading a post for skill involved either, I'm reading a post because I want to indulge myself in a literary experience (that sounds inflated, but I imagine it sounds better than 'lul i like read word') and longer posts with more details achieve that better than short posts with little details, even if the end result is the same (which is why free roleplay consists primarily of characters performing actions, not so much characters having an actual life).

I've also never incurred this problem, neither in the same degree or even lesser degree. I'm of the opinion that it is subjective -- people see a wall of words and instead of going 'hey, I can read that' decide 'I don't want to read that' and shove it aside as NEEDLESS FLUFF without really sitting down to read it properly and try to enjoy it, just because they need an excuse to not read it.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago 6 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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<Snipped quote by Sierra>

Theres more skill in telling a story with fewer words and achieving the same goal. Lengh and post size is not the only factor of qaulity. Telling a story In 300 words we'll and effectively, is better than 1000 words with 400 of lore dump and another 100 of padding.

Lore dumping for hundreds of words, eh. Telling it as part of a well woven story, linking charecters and past organicly. That's qaulity.


I'm honestly hard pressed to tell if this is a joke...

@Sierra Because in the same instance that something may come across as overly ambitious, with flaws making themselves present because of it. I don't really think creating a simplistic post with little to no prose that just happens to be slightly more polished because it had far fewer chances to fall is particularly "Advanced" either.

I think why it is so much easier to find errors or just make up personal gripes with work that expands its scope thrice over others is self-explanatory. You can write something without fucking up, and make it beyond uninteresting as a piece of writing. If you never try anything new, you'll never have to fail at it...

While length doesn't need to be difference between Casual and Advanced. I'd argue they should be experimenting with prose, vocabulary, and stylistic choices. A novelist doesn't always follow the standard. People don't have to like it, but it shouldn't be marked as wrong unless someone can provide a better alternative. Actually, being able to do that with others writing only improves your writing as a result.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Dion
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So... is 1000 words considered a long post? We have all this talk about fluff and so forth but I never really stopped to think about what actually constitutes a long post (and that's something that would differentiate between the subsections too -- rather than bad writing, which is omnipresent).
Hidden 6 yrs ago 6 yrs ago Post by Fabricant451
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I don't think long post should be measured specifically in word count. Your post can be 400 words and be too long because it's a goddamn chore to get through and your post can be 5,000 words and not long enough. Word count means less outside of a written assignment in school. If your post is 1,000 words and 600 of those words are about putting on a sock then your post is too long.

Also, fluff isn't a four letter word. Purple prose is what people want to avoid because then you're George R. R. Martin talking about butter glazed hams for ten pages.
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Hidden 6 yrs ago 6 yrs ago Post by tex
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When it comes to length, I wouldn't consider a post to be 'long' unless it overstays its welcome. I would include any post that overuses fluff for no mechanical purpose, posts that dump piles of pace-breaking exposition, and posts that break 3000-4000 words. Many players have trouble writing exposition without disrupting the pace of a story, using descriptive writing to empower themes and tone, and summarizing their writing in general. While casual RPs are certainly not exempt from this fact, I've merely experienced more of this trend while reading into advanced threads. Either I'm just excessively unlucky, or Casual is so over-inflated that it's hard to compare to advanced due the the sheer mass of examples. I'd say it's important to make a relative comparison in that case though. You can't compare 800 threads from one section to 100 threads in another section directly.

It's also important to examine posts/writing from a storytelling perspective more often than it's important to accredit a text for its use of fluff. Dan Brown, as a professional example, does not fluff up his books at all. Whether that's because he simply lacks the capacity to do so without putting cracks in his already bland narratives, or because he thinks it unnecessary is besides the point. Compare him to somebody like Steven King, and there's a drastic change. King's storytelling is well executed in tandem with his talent to the written word. Sometimes his books suffer because of how verbose they can get, but for the most part, he's a good example of how to write fluff without breaking sentence flow or ruining pacing. Though, it should be no surprise that I also think Steven King's books are very hit-or-miss.

The issue that comes up when people 'prettify' their writing, is that many young readers will flop over and applaud when they see 5 adjectives in one sentence. Sometimes a community that encourages innovation is not healthy for improvement. RPG's community as a whole is mostly concerned with the art of roleplaying. That, or starting drama. What a shocker. It should be noted the role playing and writing are not mutually inclusive. There are plenty of people that have no desire to improve their writing while role playing. While RPs involve some level of collaborative writing, that isn't the focus of role playing. This is also one of the reasons as to why collaborative posts are cancerous monstrosities that defy the very nature of Role playing, but that's another topic entirely.

Even so, I don't think this is a community where people should look to improve. I think it's a site where people seek entertainment through a medium that happens to find itself based in writing. If people want to improve, that's great. If not, that's also fine. I'm not looking to push people towards professional writing myself.

That being said, I'd always thought that separating 'casual' and 'advanced' was a silly idea that brings more negatives than positives.

A novelist doesn't always follow the standard.


I'd argue that, most of the time, novelists do follow particular standards. They also have professional editors to pick up the slack in some cases, and reflect on their writing. Part of the issue with examples you'd find on a site like this, as mentioned earlier, is that players post-and-go pretty quickly. The level of proofreading that goes into a post is likely minimal. I rarely even proofread my own posts.

Quality =/= quantity but they are intrinsically related in most cases.


In what sense? Does it have any pertinence?
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Supermaxx
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It should be noted the role playing and writing are not mutually inclusive. There are plenty of people that have no desire to improve their writing while role playing. While RPs involve some level of collaborative writing, that isn't the focus of role playing. This is also one of the reasons as to why collaborative posts are cancerous monstrosities that defy the very nature of Role playing, but that's another topic entirely.


I apologize for my ignorance, but what is forum roleplaying besides collaborative writing? Or are you making a distinction between collaborative writing and collaborative storytelling?
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Quote5
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Just going to barge in and insert myself into this conversation

Free: Too Simple. I need standards.

Casual: Just about right for me. Everyone has standards while not having the extreme walls of text necessary for advance.

Advance: I make too many spelling errors and post too short of posts to feel comfortable here.

Nations: Not my cup of tea. Simple as that

Arena: Battle sentric RP sounds fun and all, but I look at the Arena section and think "What the heck is going on here?" The whole thing seems like there is a steep learning curve and specific standards that nobody has told me about. Most daunting part is the whole rank system. It seems important but I can not find any info on it.

Tabletop: Tabletop RPs are fun, but I'd rather do them in person than on a forum.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by tex
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@Superboy

What I mean when I say that role playing and writing are not one in the same, is that role-playing, as its name implies, is centered around and defined by 'playing a role'. It's the essence of playing a character, first and foremost, before anything else comes into play. The medium in question - writing - does not define the practice. It merely acts as a platform or a 'stage' on which players can perform. In one sense of the word, role playing can also be associated with theater and games, both of which do not require any measure of writing to succeed.

Although I wouldn't say that there's no collaboration with roleplays, just think about how a group plays for a moment. While there are plenty of players writing in a group RP, can you assume that they're collaborating with their writing? Or even their story telling? Perhaps each player's focus is instead on playing their role, and reacting to the world around them. If we assume this to be true, suddenly there is no assured collaboration in many regards. Unless players plan ahead, which I believe defeats the entire purpose of roleplaying, there's no telling whether or not two characters will work together IC. Additionally, there's no guarantee that they will collaborate on the same story. Perhaps characters will act of their own free will, and disregard not only the wishes of the other characters, but the wishes of the other players.

It's this organized chaos that I think makes roleplaying so entertaining and engaging. Too often are folks obsessed with their precious plans to simply play a role through to the end, and enjoy the experience for what it really is.

That's not to say that collaborative efforts don't exist, or that they're invalid, of course. Some people do enjoy the 'writing' side of role playing more than the... Uh... Role playing side of role playing. And that's fine. If players want more structure, I chalk it up to taste.

I just think that collaboration isn't the central focus of role play. Playing a role is the central focus of role play. Hell, I don't even think Meta-collaboration should be allowed in role playing. I feel like it's quite literally a fashion of meta-gaming.
Hidden 6 yrs ago Post by Dion
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I don't think long post should be measured specifically in word count. Your post can be 400 words and be too long because it's a goddamn chore to get through and your post can be 5,000 words and not long enough.


nah

bad writing doesn't make a post long, it makes a post bad. a one liner could be the worst one liner written and it might be funny to call it 'too long' but it is, by no extent of the meaning of that word or any word even close to it, a long post.

unless we are going by the definition that 'too long' is not the same as plain old 'long' in which case yeah sure but that's not really what i asked.

When it comes to length, I wouldn't consider a post to be 'long' unless it overstays its welcome.


so an essay worth of roleplaying posts that requires you to separate your post into 3 subsequent posts in rapid succession is not 'long' to you so long as it's well written, but a one liner that overstays it welcome (strange way of categorizing it, gonna assume you mean the same as fabricant above) is 'long?'

The issue that comes up when people 'prettify' their writing, is that many young readers will flop over and applaud when they see 5 adjectives in one sentence.


you mean like adding artificial indents like you were writing a paper? in all seriousness i have yet to once see someone have five adjectives in one sentence, and even if that were to be hyperbole, i barely ever see anything resembling that type of fluff.

In what sense? Does it have any pertinence?


in my experience better writers write longer posts (though longer posts are not indicative of good writing... that's an important notion to make here, hence the quality=/=quantity) simply because they know their way around prose better and can write longer posts, expositioning more of their character, without having to resort to artificial fluffing of a post. in other words.. the additional length of the post they gain is used for the right purpose and, thus, is part of good writing, and therefore is interesting to read.

we could play your game where we condense everything while remaining true to the key points, in which case a carefully written dialogue between (a character) and (their NPC mother) on the phone in the morning during the morning routine turns into 'their mother called in the morning and then they left.' it's just a question of which you prefer.

of course, my experience is purely anecdotal, but then again so are five adjectives in one sentence, so i feel relatively comfortable using anecdotal evidence here.
Hidden 6 yrs ago 6 yrs ago Post by tex
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so an essay worth of roleplaying posts that requires you to separate your post into 3 subsequent posts in rapid succession is not 'long' to you so long as it's well written, but a one liner that overstays it welcome (strange way of categorizing it, gonna assume you mean the same as fabricant above) is 'long?'

No. I think that - "I would include any post that overuses fluff for no mechanical purpose, posts that dump piles of pace-breaking exposition, and posts that break 3000-4000 words."

The primary appeal of shorter, or more concise posts, is to allow more prompt and effective reaction from other players.

For example, if one of your characters goes on a 30 second spiel about how much they love oven mitts, I cannot assume that a chatty character who likes to butt into other people's conversations wouldn't cut them off 15 seconds in. While there's always a margin for error and control here, it's these moments of 'what if' that should be taken into consideration by all parties.

Another example: If a post describes somebody running 15 KMs, and then describes what they're doing by the time they reach the end of that route, what happens if another character intercepts them half-way? Does half of the post get invalidated? Were other characters simply not allowed to interact with this character because 'too bad I don't want to'? Why would it be acceptable to put such a broad seal on a character's ability to interfere with another? It's these huge leaps that make it difficult to play a role. There's some level of balance to be agreed on, and I believe that longer posts do little to find a middle ground on an issue like this.

you mean like adding artificial indents like you were writing a paper?

IT'S A HABIT. A good habit, I'd say. I hit tab after double enter like it's a fucking tick, man.

we could play your game where we condense everything while remaining true to the key points, in which case a carefully written dialogue between (a character) and (their NPC mother) on the phone in the morning during the morning routine turns into 'their mother called in the morning and then they left.' it's just a question of which you prefer.

I think there's a disconnect somewhere. To condense does not mean to invalidate. It's important to decide on what details to include, while also taking into consideration your fellow players, and not barring off their ability to play a role. Ultimately, the difference in experience is decisive here. We clearly have different perspectives and/or have witnessed completely different examples in advanced. I myself have rarely come across longer posts which are so well executed, that they bring shame to shorter posts with similar amounts of palpable content. Additionally, I don't frequent the advanced section. Most of what I've read dates back to pre-death guild, or 2016-2017.

I think that this disconnect in both our intent, and experience, makes it difficult to argue anything that isn't anecdotal. Considering the spectrum of experiences with Advanced though, I'm willing to believe that there are varying opinions on what constitutes good writing, and a great deal of those experiences I've heard seem to agree that Advanced and casual are not all that different. But that would be an entirely different discussion altogether, and veer viciously away from the thread's topic of comparing writing levels/sections.
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While RPs involve some level of collaborative writing, that isn't the focus of role playing. This is also one of the reasons as to why collaborative posts are cancerous monstrosities that defy the very nature of Role playing, but that's another topic entirely.


Let me stop you right here because among other objections to this statement, I actually take offense at this. What is any roleplay thread on this site if not a narrative that is the sum of the work of its participants? Nothing at all. If there is not collaboration in any form between players, then that's not a roleplay that is going to last any length of time, or create a remotely cohesive story. Is it possible? Sure, but it would not be something compelling to read as far as I'm concerned.

Playing a role does not mean you don't need to or shouldn't care about the plot/overall story. Taking the time to think about how your actions with your character(s) is one of the hallmarks I personally use to separate casual & advanced roleplayers. An advanced roleplayer should take at least a few seconds to think beyond themselves and to the story at large. Everyone may still have their own vision for the direction it should take, but caring about that direction at all, rather than exclusively for one player character is a mark of improvement.

Some players are more concerned with the story than with their own character(s). You can't tell me these people don't exist because I'm one of them. If the best thing a character can do in a given moment to meaningfully advance the story is die, then I don't hesitate to kill them off (and I do pride myself on ripping at the heartstrings when I kill people off but I digress). These people are definitely more writer than roleplayer, but that's not to say the two concepts are exclusive. If anything, a healthy blend of both worlds makes the pest potential players and that is the target audience I would always want in my groups if I had my way.
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@Sierra

That's not to say that collaborative efforts don't exist, or that they're invalid, of course. Some people do enjoy the 'writing' side of role playing more than the... Uh... Role playing side of role playing. And that's fine. If players want more structure, I chalk it up to taste.

Taking the time to think about how your actions with your character(s) is one of the hallmarks I personally use to separate casual & advanced roleplayers. An advanced roleplayer should take at least a few seconds to think beyond themselves and to the story at large.

Playing a role does not mean you don't need to or shouldn't care about the plot/overall story.

If anything, a healthy blend of both worlds makes the pest potential players and that is the target audience I would always want in my groups if I had my way.

I agree to some extent. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

My point was that role playing and writing are two different things, and should be acknowledged as such. In regards to collaborative posts specifically, I just feel like they outright defy the spirit of 'role playing' that I've experienced since I was a kid. It's not so reprehensible if two people are alone, but there a problems that arise in those situations as well, I think.
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