Let's B!tch. I feel it's a healthy release for our roleplay annoyances 2.0

[AtomicNut]

Would be good if it wasnt repeated every single post... Which was what kinda ticked me off in that particular case. Worth noting i wasnt the GM.

Once or twice is like, eeh okay. More than three times makes it an annoyance. Nobody likes scratched records.

[Wick]

@HalfOfLancelot@pugbutter

If you take a basic format and alter it quite a bit because you don't know all of the coding used but keep one sentence from the original text it is not plagiarism in my book. I've had people take mine word for word before and I never complained. And if I had I would certainly not have started anything in their OOC.

I do agree that taking someone's character is totally wrong though and I hope the mods spoke to them about how rude that was. It's actually why I don't have a C.S. thread in here. Mine are all in my mail box.

[HalfOfLancelot]

@Wick
The thing is, I can check what coding is used.



View raw allows me to view a posts coding in a separate tab or window.

Since you so graciously deleted your own OOC, here's the side by side of both CSes:

After the Asteroid's CS

The Mundane's CS

Getting a Little Heated and Off-Topic

If you would like, I can play a little game and compare all of the details that you cut out.

In fact, the only things original in the CS you 'borrowed' (i'll use that term, it sounds... polite, which I'm not being - ironic) from them is the "History" section, changing "The Mundane" header into "Your Powers," and what went under "Weaknesses."

The only work you put into this sheet and its formatting were erasing bits of info to avoid giving away a certain voice that you knew wasn't yours.

I'm sorry, but, "If you take a basic format and alter it quite a bit because you don't know all of the coding used but keep one sentence from the original text it is not plagiarism in my book." is frankly a load of shit when you compare both sheets side by side. Because you didn't alter it quite a bit, in fact, you didn't bother with changing the coding, at all. Sorry to say, but keeping one sentence? An overwhelming majority of your posts is sentences you didn't bother changing. You altered the things I mentioned because they used terms coined in the original roleplay the CS was made for, so it wouldn't make sense unless you plagiarized the entire thing word for word. The rest? All you altered was the removal of a few sentences.

This thread isn't meant for @mentioning people and calling them out. It's about bitching at inconveniences and while I did jump the gun on my bitching, I refrained from mentioning anyone. Pugbutter was just smart enough to role through my profile and history to see what was ailing me.

But, if you're going to call them out after you erased all of the evidence they can use against you, try and call out someone who's not intelligent enough to take screen caps of issues they need evidence for in case they're needed, next time. And next time you're going to call out someone, hope they don't got the time to waste on a clapback.

Apologies for not directly coming to you via PM. But, eh, I think it's too late for an apology, huh?

Maybe make a CS that's less generic, eh? People tend to put work into formatting and creating something unique for their particular roleplay than simply listing off a number of things they need. Not only does aesthetic appease to a wider audience on the guild in the midst of writing (oh god, who knew people liked pictures and colors in their writing? unbelievable that a standard of beauty is met in an art form, oh lord) but much of the time people like being unique and original within the parameters they're working in.

It is kind of weird that "CSes" are in and of itself a form of writing, but I think, in the recent iterations around the guild (look at people like Lovely Complex who do a whole helluva lot of coding and adding sections that a pertinent to the RP itself, but also unique and interesting; or Rockette who makes some extremely interesting character sheets) it's less the idea of it being just taken by someone, but more so that likely an hour of using the (simple af) BBCode to create something they'd call their own is being used and butchered by someone who thought, "Oh, pretty," and they put absolutely no work into it.

People here take more than just their writing seriously. I take my writing seriously, but I also want to make sure what I'm writing looks good both on the surface in quality and in the depth that I'm actually writing it. If the idea of using coding to 'beautify' posts was useless, then there's no reason the BBCode should be implemented in the first place. But, its just the opposite; people usually don't look twice at an interest check or OOC that doesn't catch them within those first few seconds of decision making. I gauge my interest on a few things, not necessarily in order: work and time spent, does it look pretty, is the idea solid, and does this GM seem legit? (and lowkey how many people are already interested; I gravitate toward large groups)

Next time you see something you like ask the person who posted it in the first place before you decide to take it - it's a matter of respect. ;D

[Wick]

@HalfOfLancelot

As I said before I never intended to hurt anyone and thought I had changed it enough so that it was different. I'm not going to let you keep harassing me about it. If you have a beef pm me but I'm not going to let you destroy my fun because you are butthurt about something that shouldn't have caused an issue.

[HalfOfLancelot]

@Wick

Nah, you made your bed, now you have to lie in it.

If you wanted to drop this, you wouldn't have commented here. You wouldn't have PM'd me. And you wouldn't have @Mentioned me about 3 separate times.

If you would like to leave, then feel free to do so. I'll be here, in the mean time. And my friend will graciously await her apology.

[Wick]

@HalfOfLancelot

I just sent this to Undine.

"I'm sorry that using your character sheet's basic format and coding is causing such a problem. It was not my intention to hurt anyone. I am not that familiar with all the coding. Your friend pointed out the "raw" thing to show coding so at least I'll be able to look for that in the future. With all of the alterations I made to it I didn't think they looked as similar because most of the content was different. I apologize if this has caused you any heartache as it was not intended to."

[cerozer0]

On the topic of plagiarism, I once had someone steal bits of a character sheet (word for word!) in order to ship with me. Fun times. Stealing of any kind is a writer's worst nightmare so always be ready to cite sources! If it is not your idea or original work, don't try and pass it off to be! Stealing someone's ideas is cruel and unfair to the original creator, and if you think other wise you may need to set your priorities straight. It's only right to at least @Mention someone if you use their work, and remember: there's a reason colleges can kick you out for using the words/art/code/research of another person without referencing back to the original work.

[Dervish]

And this, ladies and gents, is why I just write up my on character sheets without even looking at other games, and formatting it enough so it is distinctive and easy enough to reuse in another game. I don't see a reason for taking stuff from other roleplays both out of respect and so situations like the above become non-issues.

[Lady Absinthia]

Actually, people taking cs formats or formats for rp OOC's was why I just started making my code available in templates on the articles section. Take it, use it, I don't care. Granted that is me and not everyone feels the same way.

Now taking what people actually write... I say send them to a special level of hell.

Any who - current rp bitch is totally at myself. ~kicks herself~ Finish your new OOC woman!!!

[Dion]

Reading this made me laugh. Some of the people on this website take themselves far too seriously it seems. Suggest removing stick from ass before infection sets in. Reminder: you are some person on a roleplaying forum writing back and forth messages over a PbP forum. As far as I know there is no ownership over anything you create here aside from what the admins and moderators extend as "common courtesy". And that is just de facto guidelines, not de jure law. Take yourself that serious? Copyright your work. Patent that shit. You're a roleplayer, not George R. R. fucking Martin.

That aside, gods, getting upset over some damn bb codes. You could've used this as a chance to explain bb coding, character presentation and aesthetic appeal. Instead you threw a hissy fit because you took yourself seriously. Slow clap, slow clap, slow clap.

Add this to the pile of reasons I barely get along with people on this site and RPG, as a community, is dwindling and dying and becoming a monotone echo chamber. Have a nice day lads. I hope you can take away some lessons from both sides of this ridiculously immature discussion.

Demanding an apology in someone elses name, lol.

[BrokenPromise]

I really don't see how copying will really get that far. I mean okay, let's say you copy one of my characters for an RP. The setting and characters created by other roleplayers are likely different, so you won't be able to copy all of my posts as that RP will take a different direction from the one I'm in. Copying a character sheet is like copying a drivers license.

[Mao Mao]

I agree with @BrokenPromise and @Buddha.

Why is everyone taking their writing serious? I am trying to improve my writing so I could do well in my English and History classes, where your writing must be good. However, I will not get upset if someone stole my character or the layout of one of my roleplays. Hell, I might not even notice at all because I might be busy as hell at the outside world.

[The Harbinger of Ferocity]

I find no issue in taking seriously what is your work, regardless of what it is or where it is. So what if it is on a forum and play by post roleplay? Does that work as a valid excuse? Does it somehow magically invalidate your endeavors because you aren't a recognized or popular writer? That when or if you do become one you then "earn" the right for things to be "yours"? You might as well say anything that isn't going to be authored and published officially is otherwise a waste of time or effort; at such a point you are better off ceasing to be creative, let alone do anything that isn't your actual canonized, printed and accepted "work". On another note, I will not even touch the notion that we are only "allowed" to consider our works "ours" as some sort of privilege; the notion otherwise is ridiculous on its own.

I digress, but at the same time I will go out on a limb and say that we have all likely, to some extent, read the writings of a "real" author and then reflected that we have seen some "amateur authors" or even roleplayers do it better.

The point for me has nothing to do with the fact I take it "so seriously" and everything to do with the fact I take pride and joy in my writing; that it is mine. The theft of it is disrespectful to me. If you really wanted to duplicate something I did, why not just ask if you can use it as well? Why not respect the very thing you wanted and at least the person involved to ask, "Hey, I like this. Can I use it too?" Then have enough integrity after to accept their answer, whatever it might be.

It matters nothing if you know that it, the theft, happens or not. I am not going to flatter myself and think anything I have is legitimate enough to be worthy in the eyes of anyone but me, but the idea still stands. Do not take what is not yours or go beyond the bounds you are given. Feel free to emulate it, channel it, be inspired by it or counteract it - whatever you wish - but adopt it as your own without consent and then claim, by putting it out there under a different name and person, as if "yours"? Too far.

[Dion]

@The Harbinger of Ferocity Then don't call it plagiarism or theft. Because it's not. It's disrespectful and he should've asked. But forum etiquette is lost on many people on this forum (haha, remember when we sent PM's to resolve issues in a respectful way rather than going on a public rant thread, or into their OOC? I do.)

But going in here and starting a petty little argument (the both of them) is just retarded and shows immaturity. Going into an OOC and starting a fight is immature. In the spirit of what RPG once was (a place where people came together to write and grow) Undine (yes, that person that hasn't said a word here themselves) should've sent him a PM, telling him to change it and/or ask permission. That is what RPG stood for. But lord knows it isn't that anymore.

Besides, you're talking about characters. Not character sheets. AKA the BB codes that make up a skeleton and the words used there in. Are you really going in here proclaiming you take a lot of joy and pride on your bb codes? Codes that aren't your but Mahz's?

This entire argument was about stealing a character sheet skeleton. Not an actual fucking character or their sheet. A skeleton. Nothing to be mad about but apparently this hit the stick up these peoples' asses a tad too hard. If it was a character I could've understood, see, because one might take pride in that, but if you take pride in your CS skeleton bb codes (which was barebones anyway) then you should perhaps find another hobby and create something else to be proud of because BB codes are nothing to be proud of.

[The Harbinger of Ferocity]

@Buddha, I do not claim to know, how or why someone would take pride in that as their own - even if not - but the notion I am going with is that to them it feels, or is, personal; I am terrible with people. Apparently it is? Enough so that they went the route of publicness? My personal choice it isn't and wouldn't be unless I felt left with no other option, but that is just me.

You are correct though that it, it would be more dignified if it was carried out elsewhere. Is the code itself, barring everything else such as their arrangement and interpretation of it the programmer's? Sure. From what it seems to be was a cut, paste, and imperfect edit. As to if someone else should be irritated, what difference does that really make? I would still stand by the notion of do not use other people's stuff without asking first and foremost.

Does it really matter at this point? I would say so in that I believe the point being two fold; "Do not steal people's stuff, ask them to use it, go with their answer and stick to private channels in doing so." The latter part perhaps being the most notable mention you presented here to me, in that leaves me to wonder why one wouldn't. "Immaturity" perhaps or how I view it as a means to turn the behavior perhaps for good.

[Dion]

@The Harbinger of Ferocity And perhaps it is up to me to 'reality check' this person and tell them that the BB codes are nothing to feel personally offended by. Like I said, I would agree with what you said if it was a character, roleplay or something similarly 'time consuming' to write. Making a character sheet skeleton? I've made hundreds. Not simple ones either, ones that I invested a lot of time in and that I carefully wrote out myself to fit my RP. They have been used, re-used, altered, blatantly copied and 'plagiarized' and much to my happiness so because it means I did a good job at making something presentable and readable.

We are not talking about intellectual property. We are not talking about characters, or a roleplay. A character sheet. I really don't care how 'personal' this person feels this 'theft' was. It doesn't matter because it's just fucking stupid.

This was an immature situation (party A should not have taken it without asking, party B should not have gone the public route) caused by immature people with no sense of community. This public battle was immature, unnecessary and above all just humiliating for both sides.

I mean shit. Our homeboy wrote a fucking essay comparing the two bb code sheets to each other. Spent way too much time on this. Like a personal bloody crusade. And the best part is; he's not even the original creator. He's just some guy that feels offended in someone else's place. Why hasn't the original creator posted here? Why was it not the original creator in the thread Wick made? Why was it two holy pious knights taking up arms and shield for the original creator? Can I take away from this that the original creator doesn't really care as much as this guy and this other person seem to make it out like?

If there was any gut in them the original creator would've done it themselves. But, this is the spirit of RPG nowadays that I have felt growing increasingly.

Lack of community, lack of common sense, lack of etiquette. Granted I am guilty of that myself, but at least I have the common courtesy to at least stand by my words rather than hide behind my friends. And it makes me fed up because this place used to be the holy grail of online play by post roleplaying. Now it's just a wankstain circlejerk of idiots that take themselves too seriously now, some echo chamber where OOC grievances or even simple disagreeing opinions are taken more seriously than the quality a writer can put forth. And that's sad because this place is the place that made my writing skyrocket.

Returning to your points however, no, I don't agree with your initial paragraph. It isn't personal - because the original creator that was apparently so offended by this didn't post here or in the thread. It isn't something worth being personally offended by either. They seem to think it is - and that is their good right, I am not telling them they can't feel that way. But I disagree with it. Strongly, and more so because it happened in such a backwards way.

Things to take away from this is that you should ask permission before taking something, but also that personal crusades against someone else in their OOC thread are probably worse than that. One simple PM could've prevented all this but instead we have White and Knight get involved and now we have some shitstorm in the bitching thread.

I really miss pre-Guildfall RPG.

[Baklava]

Boy oh boy, why would anyone here complain about copying stuff that isn't theirs purely for aesthetics? Especially when the majority of people here have used whatever picture on google they can find to depict a character not once, but several times? Same for avatars and signatures. You didn't draw it and you PROBABLY didn't source it. I'm not saying I don't do this, 'cuz I TOTALLY DO (though I try to use the picture's original source), but... this whole argument just seems silly.

Who seriously gives a fuck?

[Shin Ghost Note]

Adding onto the "copying sheets" discussion, why should anyone really get upset when 80% of all sheets are functionally the same (Name, appearance, skills, whatever) except for some BB coding to spice it up?

[Lady Absinthia]

New bitch! When I go through my damn Interest Check and OOC dozens of times and think it is good to go only to post it and suddenly a misspelled word jumps out at me as if it is taunting me. Like where the hell were you the first 50 times I read over this!!!!!

[Undine]

.